Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics? I do have a pretty decent lathe (Enterprise 1550) and I'm a not-half-bad home shop machinist after decades of very slow learning whilst creating lots of scrap.

Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my well house to get at the valves within to de-winterize. I pay someone to winterize in the fall because the consequences of getting that wrong are too ghastly to contemplate. If I screw up the spring turn-on, the worst I can get is wet. That happens with regularity that others find far more amusing than I.

Now that I'm in my ninth decade, lifting that lid is getting to be almost more than I can handle and I obvously didn't sire enough sons or strong daughters. Hindsight is always 20-20. But wait ... given the cost of university tuition, it'd be cheaper to buy a helicopter than to have more progeny to educate, and probably more fun.

That wellhouse lid is probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly situated. I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but everything I came up with (levers, chains and sprockets, four-bar Chebychev linkages, gears, yada yada) was unduly complicated. I'm a sparky, not a gearhead.

If I had four little hydraulic cylinders that each could produce about 2" of lift with probably no more than 20 lbf (89 newtons for y'all thoroughly modern mechies) with some $2 bearings from Ax Man Surplus (already on my bench) I think that might work slicker'n molebdynum loon poop. That's the very slippery black stuff.

Question is, how to make the cylinders so they won't leak over time. Might automotive wheel cylinder parts (cups or seals or whatever they call the anti-leak moving parts) in shop-made cylinders work OK? O-rings? How about fluid: might water with antifreeze work as well as brake fluid without creating the mess if and when it leaks? We're talking MN, it gets cold here. Would the glycol antifreeze have enough lubricity?

No, I'm not gonna try to motivate a big strong Minnesota Swedish girl to help me out. S.O. Vicki knows where I keep the pistol at the cabin.

Anybody here ever done anything like this? McGyver hydraulics, that is?

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news:328fd1a3-c0cc-43a2-9a9c-1c4deb3779e7n@googlegroups.com...

Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics? I do have a pretty
decent lathe (Enterprise 1550) and I'm a not-half-bad home shop machinist
after decades of very slow learning whilst creating lots of scrap.

Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my well
house to get at the valves within to de-winterize. I pay someone to
winterize in the fall because the consequences of getting that wrong are
too ghastly to contemplate. If I screw up the spring turn-on, the worst I
can get is wet. That happens with regularity that others find far more
amusing than I.

Now that I'm in my ninth decade, lifting that lid is getting to be almost
more than I can handle and I obvously didn't sire enough sons or strong
daughters. Hindsight is always 20-20. But wait ... given the cost of
university tuition, it'd be cheaper to buy a helicopter than to have more
progeny to educate, and probably more fun.

That wellhouse lid is probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly
situated. I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but everything I
came up with (levers, chains and sprockets, four-bar Chebychev linkages,
gears, yada yada) was unduly complicated. I'm a sparky, not a gearhead.

If I had four little hydraulic cylinders that each could produce about 2" of
lift with probably no more than 20 lbf (89 newtons for y'all thoroughly
modern mechies) with some $2 bearings from Ax Man Surplus (already on my
bench) I think that might work slicker'n molebdynum loon poop. That's
the very slippery black stuff.

Question is, how to make the cylinders so they won't leak over time.
Might automotive wheel cylinder parts (cups or seals or whatever they call
the anti-leak moving parts) in shop-made cylinders work OK? O-rings?
How about fluid: might water with antifreeze work as well as brake fluid
without creating the mess if and when it leaks? We're talking MN, it gets
cold here. Would the glycol antifreeze have enough lubricity?

No, I'm not gonna try to motivate a big strong Minnesota Swedish girl to
help me out. S.O. Vicki knows where I keep the pistol at the cabin.

Anybody here ever done anything like this? McGyver hydraulics, that is?

----------------------------

I built a bucket loader for my garden tractor from mostly surplus hydraulic
components and steel stock. The four lift cylinders are used 4-ton
Porta-Power types that magically appeared in a nearby discount store at $15
each for the smaller pair and $20 for the larger when I needed them. They
did leak so I had to track down new seals that could be made to fit, with
some modification and some remaining leakage.

For what you suggest a 4-ton kit should do the job, either with the included
cylinder pushing or this add-on unit pulling:
https://www.harborfreight.com/5-ton-pull-back-ram-64042.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNTY4NjYwMjkiLCJza3UiOiI2NDA0MiIsImlzIjoiNTguNDkifQ==&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=20575502102&campaignid=20575502102&utm_content=154013307739&adsetid=154013307739&product=64042&store=

https://www.vevor.com/porta-power-kit-c_10320/6-ton-porta-power-hydraulic-jack-body-frame-repair-kit-auto-shop-tool-lift-ram-p
[...rest deleted]
The alligator on mine is rated 500# at the jaw tips.

This little guy has the advantage of taking up minimal headroom compared to
other hoists:
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-ton-lever-chain-hoist-67144.html

The HF 60732 truck bed crane both lifts and swings sideways:
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-bed-crane-60732.html?
[...rest deleted]
The parts are pretty heavy to install and it needs a solid foundation.

Personally I would use a wooden A frame controlled by ropes and pulleys or a
boat trailer winch that lifts the lid and swings it clear. _\ | /_

I injured my back in high school sports and it's never fully healed, so I
built a lot of portable lifting gear to help with logging firewood and
moving boulders the builder left too close to the house, etc. It all breaks
down into parts weighing 40 Lbs or less.
jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:uemi3q$p582$1@dont-email.me...

An afterthought: when building theatre scenery I learned to make retractable
landing gear for heavy items from casters on hinges that flipped underneath
to move the load or out sideways to land it. Typically both casters per side
would be on a strip of wood and move together, and could be flipped in or
out with one foot while lifting the load with both hands.

If you have the space available that option separates the operations of
lifting the lid and uncovering the opening. If it has to tilt open a boat
trailer winch and overhead pulley may be the cheapest and easiest to
install. I have several lifts that operate with block and tackle but
securing the rope onto the cleat can be difficult with winter gloves. Cotton
braided rope, sash cord or clothesline are the easiest to handle, and thin
fingered gloves under removable thick mitten ones help.

On 9/23/2023 6:27 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Don Foreman"  wrote in message
> news:328fd1a3-c0cc-43a2-9a9c-1c4deb3779e7n@googlegroups.com...
>
> Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics?  I do have a pretty
> decent lathe (Enterprise 1550)  and I'm a not-half-bad  home shop
> machinist after decades of very slow learning whilst creating lots of
> scrap.
>
> Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my
> well house to get at the valves within to de-winterize.  I pay someone
> to winterize in the fall because the consequences of getting that wrong
> are too ghastly to contemplate.  If I screw up the spring turn-on, the
> worst I can get is wet.  That happens with regularity that others find
> far more amusing than I.
>
> Now that I'm in my ninth decade, lifting  that lid is getting to be
> almost more than I can handle and  I obvously didn't sire enough sons or
> strong daughters.  Hindsight is always 20-20.   But wait ... given the
> cost of university tuition,  it'd be cheaper to buy a helicopter than to
> have more progeny to educate, and probably more fun.
>
> That wellhouse lid is  probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly
> situated.    I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but
> everything I came up with (levers, chains and sprockets,  four-bar
> Chebychev linkages, gears, yada yada)  was unduly complicated.  I'm a
> sparky, not a gearhead.
>
> If I had four little hydraulic cylinders that each could produce about
> 2" of lift  with probably no more than 20 lbf  (89 newtons for y'all
> thoroughly modern mechies) with some $2 bearings from Ax Man Surplus
> (already on my bench)   I think that might  work slicker'n molebdynum
> loon poop.  That's the very slippery  black stuff.
>
> Question is, how to make the cylinders so they won't leak over time.
> Might automotive wheel cylinder parts (cups or seals or whatever they
> call the anti-leak moving  parts)   in shop-made cylinders work OK?
> O-rings? How about fluid:  might water with antifreeze work as well as
> brake fluid without creating the mess if and when it leaks?  We're
> talking  MN, it gets cold here.  Would the glycol antifreeze  have
> enough lubricity?
>
> No, I'm not gonna try to motivate a big strong Minnesota  Swedish girl
> to help me out.  S.O. Vicki knows where I keep the pistol at the cabin.
>
> Anybody here  ever done anything like this?  McGyver hydraulics, that is?
>
> ----------------------------
>
> I built a bucket loader for my garden tractor from mostly surplus
> hydraulic components and steel stock. The four lift cylinders are used
> 4-ton Porta-Power types that magically appeared in a nearby discount
> store at $15 each for the smaller pair and $20 for the larger when I
> needed them. They did leak so I had to track down new seals that could
> be made to fit, with some modification and some remaining leakage.
>
> For what you suggest a 4-ton kit should do the job, either with the
> included cylinder pushing or this add-on unit pulling:
> https://www.harborfreight.com/5-ton-pull-back-ram-64042.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNTY4NjYwMjkiLCJza3UiOiI2NDA0MiIsImlzIjoiNTguNDkifQ==&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=20575502102&campaignid=20575502102&utm_content=154013307739&adsetid=154013307739&product=64042&store=
>
>
> https://www.vevor.com/porta-power-kit-c_10320/6-ton-porta-power-hydraulic-jack-body-frame-repair-kit-auto-shop-tool-lift-ram-p
> [...rest deleted]
> The alligator on mine is rated 500# at the jaw tips.
>
> This little guy has the advantage of taking up minimal headroom compared
> to other hoists:
> https://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-ton-lever-chain-hoist-67144.html
>
> The HF 60732 truck bed crane both lifts and swings sideways:
> https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-bed-crane-60732.html?
> [...rest deleted]
> The parts are pretty heavy to install and it needs a solid foundation.
>
> Personally I would use a wooden A frame controlled by ropes and pulleys
> or a boat trailer winch that lifts the lid and swings it clear.  _\ | /_
>
> I injured my back in high school sports and it's never fully healed, so
> I built a lot of portable lifting gear to help with logging firewood and
> moving boulders the builder left too close to the house, etc. It all
> breaks down into parts weighing 40 Lbs or less.
> jsw

Jim has some good ideas ... I was thinking something simpler . I use a
home made pivoting jib crane to handle heavier chunks of firewood ,
something similar with a boat winch might be just the ticket for your
lid lift . I used 2" square tube and an ATV electric winch , you could
probably use chain link fencing tube and a boat winch . Actually , a
lever and pivot device might work well since you're only lifting a few
inches . And you'll be loading the lever rather than lifting anything .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
Don Foreman <donf42@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>If I had four little hydraulic cylinders that each could produce about 2" of lift with
>probably no more than 20 lbf (89 newtons for y'all thoroughly modern
>mechies) with some $2 bearings from Ax Man Surplus (already on my bench)

You can get Electric Actuators nowadays pretty cheap. Especially if
they are odd-ball length/sizes. Some are pretty beefy in what they can
lift. Check out the Ebay search for ideas

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=actuator+

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Snag" wrote in message news:uemkmc$pisu$1@dont-email.me...

I was thinking something simpler . I use a
home made pivoting jib crane to handle heavier chunks of firewood ,
something similar with a boat winch might be just the ticket for your
lid lift . I used 2" square tube and an ATV electric winch , you could
probably use chain link fencing tube and a boat winch . Actually , a
lever and pivot device might work well since you're only lifting a few
inches . And you'll be loading the lever rather than lifting anything .
Snag

--------------------

Chain link fence post is quite versatile for structures. It's the same OD as
water pipe although the nominal sizes are different, fence post size is
closer to actual OD. If the well house frame permits an upper support the
jib crane could be an upright post that rests on a foot-operated lever to
lift the jib crane and well cover a few inches to swing it clear. A standard
tee joint clamp could connect the boom to the mast if their outer and top
ends are chained together to transfer the load to the upper support.

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:ueml0o$phda$1@dont-email.me...

You can get Electric Actuators nowadays pretty cheap. Especially if
they are odd-ball length/sizes. Some are pretty beefy in what they can
lift. Check out the Ebay search for ideas

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=actuator+
Leon Fisk

---------------------

Thanks. They have come way down since I last looked. I've wanted to play
with robotics for a long time but don't have a practical use, since
everything I want to lift tends to weigh 500 Lbs or more. I did a little
with Segway robotics, though only the bases for customers to add to. They
make quite capable, relatively fast and extremely maneuverable all-terrain
vehicles. One version had four wheels but could rise up and balance on two
to turn in place or perform acrobatics, a favorite of the engineering staff.
It had been an engineer's "frog day" project.
http://www.segway.cz/products/centaur/index.html

How 'bout pneumatic cylinders? Even a 1" one with 40psi air would lift
30lb±. There wouldn't be any worries about leaking. Some leaking
really won't be a problem - the compressor would make it up.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 09:21:51 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>Thanks. They have come way down since I last looked. I've wanted to play
>with robotics for a long time but don't have a practical use, since
>everything I want to lift tends to weigh 500 Lbs or more. I did a little
>with Segway robotics, though only the bases for customers to add to. They
>make quite capable, relatively fast and extremely maneuverable all-terrain
>vehicles. One version had four wheels but could rise up and balance on two
>to turn in place or perform acrobatics, a favorite of the engineering staff.
>It had been an engineer's "frog day" project.
>http://www.segway.cz/products/centaur/index.html

That's really cool and could see many uses for it👍

Johnny Buckets use an actuator for their Lawn Mower addons:

https://www.johnnyproducts.com/JP_Parts_HTMs/Linear-Actuator-Plus-hardware.htm

Noticed it years ago when I first heard of Johnny Buckets and was
looking them over.

I've spotted actuators being used on farm machinery too. For turning
chutes and other misc things...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:uemvvg$phda$2@dont-email.me...

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 09:21:51 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>http://www.segway.cz/products/centaur/index.html
That's really cool and could see many uses for it👍

Johnny Buckets use an actuator for their Lawn Mower addons:

https://www.johnnyproducts.com/JP_Parts_HTMs/Linear-Actuator-Plus-hardware.htm

Noticed it years ago when I first heard of Johnny Buckets and was
looking them over.

I've spotted actuators being used on farm machinery too. For turning
chutes and other misc things...

Leon Fisk

-----------------------------------

I considered a remote actuator to raise and lower my TV antenna to help find
sweet spots in the diffraction pattern over the ridge, then I discovered
that chain link top rail can substitute for Radio Shack antenna mast at
about a quarter the price, so I raised the antenna into stronger signal and
added guy lines that ruled out the variable height idea. I still use a
spectrum analyzer to aim the rotor for minimal ghost reflections, which
cause interference notches in the otherwise nearly flat channel spectrum.

In the analog TV days with a lower antenna that channel showed a
faint -leading- ghost, which I think was the direct path signal arriving
ahead of the stronger reflection from the water tower.

On 9/22/2023 11:36 PM, Don Foreman wrote:
> Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics? I do have a pretty decent lathe (Enterprise 1550) and I'm a not-half-bad home shop machinist after decades of very slow learning whilst creating lots of scrap.
>
> Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my well house to get at the valves within to de-winterize. I pay someone to winterize in the fall because the consequences of getting that wrong are too ghastly to contemplate. If I screw up the spring turn-on, the worst I can get is wet. That happens with regularity that others find far more amusing than I.
>
> Now that I'm in my ninth decade, lifting that lid is getting to be almost more than I can handle and I obvously didn't sire enough sons or strong daughters. Hindsight is always 20-20. But wait ... given the cost of university tuition, it'd be cheaper to buy a helicopter than to have more progeny to educate, and probably more fun.
>
> That wellhouse lid is probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly situated. I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but everything I came up with (levers, chains and sprockets, four-bar Chebychev linkages, gears, yada yada) was unduly complicated. I'm a sparky, not a gearhead.
>
> If I had four little hydraulic cylinders that each could produce about 2" of lift with probably no more than 20 lbf (89 newtons for y'all thoroughly modern mechies) with some $2 bearings from Ax Man Surplus (already on my bench) I think that might work slicker'n molebdynum loon poop. That's the very slippery black stuff.
>
> Question is, how to make the cylinders so they won't leak over time. Might automotive wheel cylinder parts (cups or seals or whatever they call the anti-leak moving parts) in shop-made cylinders work OK? O-rings? How about fluid: might water with antifreeze work as well as brake fluid without creating the mess if and when it leaks? We're talking MN, it gets cold here. Would the glycol antifreeze have enough lubricity?
>
> No, I'm not gonna try to motivate a big strong Minnesota Swedish girl to help me out. S.O. Vicki knows where I keep the pistol at the cabin.
>
> Anybody here ever done anything like this? McGyver hydraulics, that is?
>
>

If you want to see some impressive "shop made" hydraulics check out a
YouTube channel called "Make it Extreme." They are more infotainment
than informational, but may give you some inspiration. That being
said... "how simple?"

Seriously. A tube/piston that won't cut an o-ring and a plane old basic
round profile o-ring can work short term as a simple hydraulic cylinder.
Backer rings and it gets a little better. Use actual hydraulic seals
and you are limited by the strength of your tube and end caps. Dual
acting hydraulics are in my opinion the simplest in terms of use, but
single acting with weight or spring for counter force "may" be easier to
fabricate. The control for a single acting cylinder is simpler to
setup. Pressure source, and relief valve.

If its for a relatively low force maybe consider a pneumatic. Most
shops already have an air compressor, but fewer have an independent
hydraulic power pack laying around. The danger of failure with
pneumatic is much higher if high pressure. More akin to an explosion.
They make quite lethal pneumatic air rifles with "air" for a reason. I
doubt you have high pressure air in your shop, but a large volume
failure with the low pressure of a common shop or industrial compressor
can be dangerous. (I do have high pressure in my shop, but only for
charging air guns (3000-4500PSI).)

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:uemvvg$phda$2@dont-email.me...

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 09:21:51 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>http://www.segway.cz/products/centaur/index.html
That's really cool and could see many uses for it👍

---------------------

I joined a motorcycle offroad club that hosted competitions like ice races
and moto trials, which emphasize finesse and balance over speed. In the
"boulder kissing" event you stop the bike, raise the front wheel, turn
sideways and tap it on a boulder, straighten out and ride on, all without
putting a foot down. It was what the Centaur could do, on a motorcycle. I
couldn't even stay balanced for more than a second or two at a stop and
barely could make a full-lock turn by balancing with the throttle.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 13:03:31 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>I joined a motorcycle offroad club that hosted competitions like ice races
>and moto trials, which emphasize finesse and balance over speed. In the
>"boulder kissing" event you stop the bike, raise the front wheel, turn
>sideways and tap it on a boulder, straighten out and ride on, all without
>putting a foot down. It was what the Centaur could do, on a motorcycle. I
>couldn't even stay balanced for more than a second or two at a stop and
>barely could make a full-lock turn by balancing with the throttle.

I remember watching little snippets for that type of riding long ago.
Bikes were geared way down as I recall. Ride over stuff like old VW
Beetles, retaining walls, dumpsters... without any starting or exit
ramps. Way past my motorcycle handling abilities.

Motorcycle Trials... had to look it up to be sure I recalled it
correctly😉

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_trials

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 12:29:32 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>In the analog TV days with a lower antenna that channel showed a
>faint -leading- ghost, which I think was the direct path signal arriving
>ahead of the stronger reflection from the water tower.

Yeah... sometimes you could bet a better picture, signal pointing in
the "wrong" direction but at some object that was reflecting well🙂

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:uen8j8$susu$1@dont-email.me...

Way past my motorcycle handling abilities.

----------------------

My neighbor told me about commercial carpentry jobs when he was young, where
many of the crew could walk along the 2x4 at the top of a wall several
stories up; there was no scaffolding and few ladders. I can't walk reliably
on a 2x4 flat on pavement or get very far balancing on railroad rails,
despite much practice to improve my balance. An Army buddy walked around the
narrow and crumbling top of the ruins of an old German castle I'd taken him
to visit, about 3 stories up, while I stayed safe and secure on the old air
raid observers platform in one corner and wondered how to explain getting
him killed.

I kept climbing rope in the car so we could practice midnight castle
storming raids on those isolated ruins. By law German commerce shut down at
6PM and during the week no one was out afterwards, except around the urban
bars that stayed open until 3AM. Then we'd adjourn to the flat of a friendly
barmaid to sober up a little before driving back to the base. The Army had
told us we didn't really need much sleep and my time in Heidelberg proved
it, even more than college.

Don Foreman <donf42@gmail.com> writes:

> Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics? ...
>
> Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my well house to get at the valves within to de-winterize. ...
> ...

Hi the Don and all you very experienced contributors.

Opinion of hydraulics shop - what "kills" hydraulics is non-use.

Sounds like once a year application? Not a lot of use.

Mine was "opposite" discussion - could I use over-the-counter
hydraulic cylinder for fatigue-testing, where you'd be driving it
through 10's to 100's of millions of cycles. They said likely no problem.

You have this rig and you are using it once a year...

Other thing is consequence if it does not work - weather window to do
this, winter fast approaching and suddenly you turn it on and it
doesn't work. Then you don't have time on your side to sort it out.

Others are already mention solutions which more come to me too.
Beam on a couple of stands; a lever (crowbar?) and rope - or maybe go
for a strop as used in lifting operations = stiff and load comes on
with minimal stretch?
Or a winch of some kind.

The thing is these solutions have wide-ranging application, you can
substitute if any "curve-balls" come at you, things like a crowbar
will be as good when you pick it up as when you put it down whenever
that was, etc.
You'd likely find lots of other applications.

My feeling is that other contributors like Jim and Snag have already
pointed the way...

Rich S

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyv8c0nocj.fsf@void.com...

Don Foreman <donf42@gmail.com> writes:

> Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics? ...
>
> Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my
> well house to get at the valves within to de-winterize. ...
> ...

Hi the Don and all you very experienced contributors.

Opinion of hydraulics shop - what "kills" hydraulics is non-use.

Sounds like once a year application? Not a lot of use.

Mine was "opposite" discussion - could I use over-the-counter
hydraulic cylinder for fatigue-testing, where you'd be driving it
through 10's to 100's of millions of cycles. They said likely no problem.

You have this rig and you are using it once a year...

Other thing is consequence if it does not work - weather window to do
this, winter fast approaching and suddenly you turn it on and it
doesn't work. Then you don't have time on your side to sort it out.

Others are already mention solutions which more come to me too.
Beam on a couple of stands; a lever (crowbar?) and rope - or maybe go
for a strop as used in lifting operations = stiff and load comes on
with minimal stretch?
Or a winch of some kind.

The thing is these solutions have wide-ranging application, you can
substitute if any "curve-balls" come at you, things like a crowbar
will be as good when you pick it up as when you put it down whenever
that was, etc.
You'd likely find lots of other applications.

My feeling is that other contributors like Jim and Snag have already
pointed the way...

Rich S

---------------------------

The missing element is a description of the conditions: is this a covered
well in a separate doghouse with limited space above or beside for the open
lid and places to attach mechanisms, or is the lid the weathertight roof of
an exposed well with space around but no helpful structure above, or
something else, for instance my Alabama grandfather's well was a tube that
came up through the floor of the veranda and the water shuttle hung from the
roof. I tried to address multiple possibilities.
jsw

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news:328fd1a3-c0cc-43a2-9a9c-1c4deb3779e7n@googlegroups.com...

That wellhouse lid is probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly
situated. I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but everything I
came up with (levers, chains and sprockets, four-bar Chebychev linkages,
gears, yada yada) was unduly complicated. I'm a sparky, not a gearhead.

-------------------------

How about a lighter lid? I made several roof access hatches from corrugated
Suntuf polycarbonate panels framed with 1-1/2" square PT near the outer
edges and thinner PT purlins spaced 16" supporting the roofing. Steel angle
brackets join the corners without complex carpentry. They have survived many
years of falling acorns and NH winter snow loads and holes can be
temporarily repaired with tape. Window screening over the bottom, resting on
and overhanging the well rim, would keep bugs and wasps out while allowing
ventilation, or the space could be insulated with styrofoam. Hooks and eyes
keep them from blowing off. The ones most susceptible to falling branches
have double layers of panel. A 2' x 4' hatch with a grab bar across the
center is easy for me to lift open and set aside with one hand from below.
https://tinyurl.com/6a95cx4w

Before the polycarbonate panels came out I used PVC ones, and the colored
panels held up longer in sunlight than the clear ones. Corrugated steel
roofing isn't very heavy either.

A bit more info of the hatch & its surroundings could answer a lot of questions . I agree with the hydraulics sitting & not working down the road .A couple of actuators with quick connect ball fittings that ya can take off after use & keep in a warm place could be a solution . Sang's idea sounds like one that could be made to work .. Can the lid have hinges on it so a guy/gal could slip a 3-4 ' bar into that could be used to open the hinged door ? More info could probably get ya a home run .
animal

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Don Foreman" wrote in message
> news:328fd1a3-c0cc-43a2...@googlegroups.com...
> That wellhouse lid is probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly
> situated. I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but everything I
> came up with (levers, chains and sprockets, four-bar Chebychev linkages,
> gears, yada yada) was unduly complicated. I'm a sparky, not a gearhead.
> -------------------------
>
> How about a lighter lid? I made several roof access hatches from corrugated
> Suntuf polycarbonate panels framed with 1-1/2" square PT near the outer
> edges and thinner PT purlins spaced 16" supporting the roofing. Steel angle
> brackets join the corners without complex carpentry. They have survived many
> years of falling acorns and NH winter snow loads and holes can be
> temporarily repaired with tape. Window screening over the bottom, resting on
> and overhanging the well rim, would keep bugs and wasps out while allowing
> ventilation, or the space could be insulated with styrofoam. Hooks and eyes
> keep them from blowing off. The ones most susceptible to falling branches
> have double layers of panel. A 2' x 4' hatch with a grab bar across the
> center is easy for me to lift open and set aside with one hand from below..
> https://tinyurl.com/6a95cx4w
>
> Before the polycarbonate panels came out I used PVC ones, and the colored
> panels held up longer in sunlight than the clear ones. Corrugated steel
> roofing isn't very heavy either.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:11:59 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyv8c0n...@void.com...
> Don Foreman <don...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Anyone here ever made simple shop-made hydraulics? ...
> >
> > Once a year I need to lift the close-fitting 4' x 4' plywood lid on my
> > well house to get at the valves within to de-winterize. ...
> > ...
>
> Hi the Don and all you very experienced contributors.
>
> Opinion of hydraulics shop - what "kills" hydraulics is non-use.
>
> Sounds like once a year application? Not a lot of use.
>
> Mine was "opposite" discussion - could I use over-the-counter
> hydraulic cylinder for fatigue-testing, where you'd be driving it
> through 10's to 100's of millions of cycles. They said likely no problem.
>
> You have this rig and you are using it once a year...
>
> Other thing is consequence if it does not work - weather window to do
> this, winter fast approaching and suddenly you turn it on and it
> doesn't work. Then you don't have time on your side to sort it out.
>
> Others are already mention solutions which more come to me too.
> Beam on a couple of stands; a lever (crowbar?) and rope - or maybe go
> for a strop as used in lifting operations = stiff and load comes on
> with minimal stretch?
> Or a winch of some kind.
>
> The thing is these solutions have wide-ranging application, you can
> substitute if any "curve-balls" come at you, things like a crowbar
> will be as good when you pick it up as when you put it down whenever
> that was, etc.
> You'd likely find lots of other applications.
>
> My feeling is that other contributors like Jim and Snag have already
> pointed the way...
>
> Rich S
> ---------------------------
>
> The missing element is a description of the conditions: is this a covered
> well in a separate doghouse with limited space above or beside for the open
> lid and places to attach mechanisms, or is the lid the weathertight roof of
> an exposed well with space around but no helpful structure above, or
> something else, for instance my Alabama grandfather's well was a tube that
> came up through the floor of the veranda and the water shuttle hung from the
> roof. I tried to address multiple possibilities.
> jsw

It's a covered well in a separate doghouse that is ridiculously large for its purpose. It's like a 4 foot cube. The lid in question is the flat roof of the doghouse. No helpful structure above or near, and I don't want to add any signficant external structure because it's ugly enough as is. I'd like nearly all of the solution to be inside and out of sight, with maybe just an actuating lever on the outside. The idea is to raise the roof just about 2" so a surrounding lip clears the structure below, and it can then roll it back just enough to get at three valves inside. I've already made tools to reach and operate the valves from outside. The tools stay inside the wellhouse.
Because it will be a passive system with rollers that push the lid up from inside, if the rollers and/or lifting mechanism fail to work then I just do it the hard way as I have for years.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 10:18:32 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Don Foreman" wrote in message
> news:328fd1a3-c0cc-43a2...@googlegroups.com...
> That wellhouse lid is probably only about 50 lb but it's awkwardly
> situated. I've thought about purely mechanical solutions but everything I
> came up with (levers, chains and sprockets, four-bar Chebychev linkages,
> gears, yada yada) was unduly complicated. I'm a sparky, not a gearhead.
> -------------------------
>
> How about a lighter lid?
(snip)
That's far too sensible, Jim! I want to see if I can devise a way to lift and roll back the existing lid. I'd rather make mechanisms in my shop than build stuff at the lake because shop season is all winter but when I'm at the lake I'd rather go fishing.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:07:36 PM UTC-5, ani...@psln.com wrote:
> A bit more info of the hatch & its surroundings could answer a lot of questions . I agree with the hydraulics sitting & not working down the road .A couple of actuators with quick connect ball fittings that ya can take off after use & keep in a warm place could be a solution . Sang's idea sounds like one that could be made to work .. Can the lid have hinges on it so a guy/gal could slip a 3-4 ' bar into that could be used to open the hinged door ? More info could probably get ya a home run .
> animal

I don't think hinges would work, but I hadn't thought about something as simple as a long lifting lever that hooks the front of the lid and lifts it just enough (a couple of inches) so it can roll back a foot or two. Thanks for that idea! The implement could be kept in the shed when not in use. I need to think about this approach. Actually, just a better handle on the front of the lid might help a lot. That'd be an easy welding project.

Damn, I sorta liked the idea of simple hydraulics, but I didn't know that infrequent use increases likelihood of failure. Do automotive brake systems typically fail if the car is rarely driven, like the 1955 Ferrari kept under a tarp in the barn? (Jay Leno's barn, not mine!)

What about the bottle jack in the truck that gets used about once per decade? The jack, not the truck.

Pneumatics (air cylinders) could easily handle the light load but there's no shop air at my lake cabin. Ah, but there is water pressure from the well pump! Perhaps I could devise an air over water device that could be drained after each use (so no need to winterize) and use the well pump as prime mover. I think the system pressure is about 40 PSIG, so an actuator producing 15 lbf of force (66.7 Newtons for y'all thoroughly modern mechhies) ( one of four such) would need a piston or bellows area of 0.375 in^2 which would be a diameter of 0.691 in, just a bit under 3/4". So go with 1" dia and let the SOB leak air, or water for that matter, there's plenty of both. Now we're getting to hydraulics where greased pump leathers from old bicycle pumps would suffice.

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:52:12 PM UTC-7, Don Foreman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:07:36 PM UTC-5, ani...@psln.com wrote:
> > A bit more info of the hatch & its surroundings could answer a lot of questions . I agree with the hydraulics sitting & not working down the road ..A couple of actuators with quick connect ball fittings that ya can take off after use & keep in a warm place could be a solution . Sang's idea sounds like one that could be made to work .. Can the lid have hinges on it so a guy/gal could slip a 3-4 ' bar into that could be used to open the hinged door ? More info could probably get ya a home run .
> > animal

> I don't think hinges would work, but I hadn't thought about something as simple as a long lifting lever that hooks the front of the lid and lifts it just enough (a couple of inches) so it can roll back a foot or two. Thanks for that idea! The implement could be kept in the shed when not in use. I need to think about this approach. Actually, just a better handle on the front of the lid might help a lot. That'd be an easy welding project.
>
> Damn, I sorta liked the idea of simple hydraulics, but I didn't know that infrequent use increases likelihood of failure. Do automotive brake systems typically fail if the car is rarely driven, like the 1955 Ferrari kept under a tarp in the barn? (Jay Leno's barn, not mine!)
>
> What about the bottle jack in the truck that gets used about once per decade? The jack, not the truck.
>
> Pneumatics (air cylinders) could easily handle the light load but there's no shop air at my lake cabin. Ah, but there is water pressure from the well pump! Perhaps I could devise an air over water device that could be drained after each use (so no need to winterize) and use the well pump as prime mover. I think the system pressure is about 40 PSIG, so an actuator producing 15 lbf of force (66.7 Newtons for y'all thoroughly modern mechhies) ( one of four such) would need a piston or bellows area of 0.375 in^2 which would be a diameter of 0.691 in, just a bit under 3/4". So go with 1" dia and let the SOB leak air, or water for that matter, there's plenty of both. Now we're getting to hydraulics where greased pump leathers from old bicycle pumps would suffice.

I've seen lots of folks with those " dog houses " over their wells. On the smaller ones like the one you have they hinged the roof so they could tip it up & then use a rod that pivots on both sides to lock the roof from falling when open .
animal

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news:46f6c05e-9759-4a1c-8c9d-7cb88d3193a6n@googlegroups.com...

It's a covered well in a separate doghouse that is ridiculously large for
its purpose. It's like a 4 foot cube. The lid in question is the flat
roof of the doghouse. No helpful structure above or near, and I don't want
to add any signficant external structure because it's ugly enough as is.
I'd like nearly all of the solution to be inside and out of sight, with
maybe just an actuating lever on the outside. The idea is to raise the roof
just about 2" so a surrounding lip clears the structure below, and it can
then roll it back just enough to get at three valves inside. I've already
made tools to reach and operate the valves from outside. The tools stay
inside the wellhouse.
Because it will be a passive system with rollers that push the lid up from
inside, if the rollers and/or lifting mechanism fail to work then I just do
it the hard way as I have for years.

--------------------

Thanks. The problem with hydraulics is that they need a control and perhaps
an energy source accessible from outside where they invite tampering. Even a
recessed Schraeder valve to pressurize roller-raising air cylinders with a
bicycle pump or CO2 tire inflater could become uncapped and filled with dirt
by wind or wasps. Can you accept an external opening device that could break
or be lost or forgotten?
https://tinyurl.com/7ekz5k9y
https://tinyurl.com/4b2p7aut
Max 145PSI
https://tinyurl.com/2tk5n4ns
Tire valve extensions with flush-closing ends might help.

The square PT meant for deck railing baluster could be your rot-proof
external lever. Mounted vertically it would look like innocent decorative
trim. A center one could toggle or cam up the roller levers, or pull a rope
that does. Maybe hide magnets that keep it in place.

If you could disguise the lifting levers as sliding or swing out sections of
the overhanging rim they could lift a side enough for a hinged caster to
drop into a track and keep that side up, avoiding finger risk. Privacy
screen hinges that fold both ways would allow the caster to hang vertical.
The caster should be latchable in place, as with a turnbutton. Lift the
other side the same way and then roll the lid back, perhaps until it stands
vertically if there is one centered caster on opposite sides and a track end
stop. You never have to lift more than half the lid's weight.

You'd need a way to keep the caster temporarily folded back to lower the lid
with both hands on the levers, such as a pull cord.

The 8' lever that lifts my hinged 4' deck roof extension to lower the
supporting columns and then the roof for maintenance required only a screw
eye in the house roof soffit to hook it to, and it swings up under the
soffit for storage where it hides among all the other gear I have up there,
like the block and tackle to raise the hinged deck stairs and pulleys for
washing and drying tarps.

Anything not sheltered under the rim could ice up, a problem I have with my
chimney cleaning brush rope and TV antenna raising and lowering mechanism
which are on the shaded north side of the house.

Good luck, hth

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:ues3vv$1uqjt$1@dont-email.me...

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news:46f6c05e-9759-4a1c-8c9d-7cb88d3193a6n@googlegroups.com...
....
Thanks. The problem with hydraulics is that they need a control and perhaps
an energy source accessible from outside where they invite tampering. Even a
recessed Schraeder valve to pressurize roller-raising air cylinders with a
bicycle pump or CO2 tire inflater could become uncapped and filled with dirt
by wind or wasps. Can you accept an external opening device that could break
or be lost or forgotten?

-----------------------------

Another afterthought: The compressed air outlet beside my garage door is a
water faucet with a DIY screened cap to keep mud wasps out but not lock in
place if pressurized. It looks normal on the garage, wouldn't seem out of
place on a well house and takes compressed air fittings with an NPT to GHT
adapter. Removing the knob should make it less tempting to tamper with. The
valve could lower the lid gently after removing the pressure source.