My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas gift
, and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have too many
bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one . My idea is
to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the other . Probably
around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1" thick . My concern is
the bond between brass and steel . My first idea was to cast the brass
to the steel , then machine to final size . This will mean preheating
the steel so the brass doesn't chill and solidify too soon . The only
way I can see this working is to machine a recess in the steel or to
clamp a band around the preheated steel disc . Probably need to flux and
prime with some brass brazing rod too . This thing will be hammered on ,
so I doubt any kind of epoxy or other chemical bond will hold up for
long . The brass side will have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus
various size holes for pin punch operations . The steel side is for
stamping or flattening type stuff .
Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...
--
Snag
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

On 12/26/2023 6:39 PM, Snag wrote:
>   My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas gift
> , and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have too many
> bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one . My idea is
> to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the other . Probably
> around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1" thick . My concern is
> the bond between brass and steel . My first idea was to cast the brass
> to the steel , then machine to final size . This will mean preheating
> the steel so the brass doesn't chill and solidify too soon . The only
> way I can see this working is to machine a recess in the steel or to
> clamp a band around the preheated steel disc . Probably need to flux and
> prime with some brass brazing rod too . This thing will be hammered on ,
> so I doubt any kind of epoxy or other chemical bond will hold up for
> long . The brass side will have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus
> various size holes for pin punch operations . The steel side is for
> stamping or flattening type stuff .
>   Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...

Brass and steel? You almost certainly have to solder. Maybe you can
get by with something like Silphous 15, but I would bet on an acid paste
flux and a separate silver solder. Atleast you aren't upside down and
sideways behind a condenser. You can do it on the bench. You might be
able to use generic plumbing solder, but you did say "stay together."

Nah, ignore all that' I don't know nuthin'!

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 12/26/2023 8:36 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 12/26/2023 6:39 PM, Snag wrote:
>>    My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas
>> gift , and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have
>> too many bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one .
>> My idea is to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the other
>> . Probably around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1" thick .
>> My concern is the bond between brass and steel . My first idea was to
>> cast the brass to the steel , then machine to final size . This will
>> mean preheating the steel so the brass doesn't chill and solidify too
>> soon . The only way I can see this working is to machine a recess in
>> the steel or to clamp a band around the preheated steel disc .
>> Probably need to flux and prime with some brass brazing rod too . This
>> thing will be hammered on , so I doubt any kind of epoxy or other
>> chemical bond will hold up for long . The brass side will have vee and
>> maybe half-round grooves plus various size holes for pin punch
>> operations . The steel side is for stamping or flattening type stuff .
>>    Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...
>
>
> Brass and steel?  You almost certainly have to solder.  Maybe you can
> get by with something like Silphous 15, but I would bet on an acid paste
> flux and a separate silver solder.  Atleast you aren't upside down and
> sideways behind a condenser.  You can do it on the bench.  You might be
> able to use generic plumbing solder, but you did say "stay together."
>
> Nah, ignore all that'  I don't know nuthin'!
>

I just happen to have a few sticks of silfos 15 out in the shop ...
and some boric acid flux . But now ya got me thinkin' , how about
phosphor bronze TIG filler ? I've got some silver solder here somewhere
, but I haven't seen it in a couple or five years now - got it to
repair/make some bandsaw blades and misplaced it almost immediately .
I've also got regular brass brazing rod on hand . I'll still have to
cast a slug for the brass side , which is why I was thinking about
casting it right onto the steel .

--
Snag
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

"Snag" wrote in message news:umfv83$3lp6m$1@dont-email.me...

My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas gift
, and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have too many
bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one . My idea is
to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the other . Probably
around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1" thick . My concern is
the bond between brass and steel . My first idea was to cast the brass
to the steel , then machine to final size . This will mean preheating
the steel so the brass doesn't chill and solidify too soon . The only
way I can see this working is to machine a recess in the steel or to
clamp a band around the preheated steel disc . Probably need to flux and
prime with some brass brazing rod too . This thing will be hammered on ,
so I doubt any kind of epoxy or other chemical bond will hold up for
long . The brass side will have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus
various size holes for pin punch operations . The steel side is for
stamping or flattening type stuff .
Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...
--
Snag
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
-------------------------------------

Since it's round you could turn a mechanical locking stud with a larger head
on the steel. Brass contracts almost twice as much as steel when it cools so
it should grab well, and a few shallow drill holes should keep it from
turning if the joint loosens from use. I'd embed the steel in casting sand
and mold or carve oversized clearance for the brass, which you can clean up
on the lathe. The foundry workers I watched as a little kid carved many
re-entrant details on molds made from simpler patterns. The carving tools
were little spatulas.

A thin coat of soap would reduce oxidation on the back and sides of the
preheated steel.

A swage block and drilled tapping guide are on my to-do list of metal
projects.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 19:39:12 -0600, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

> My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas gift
>, and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have too many
>bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one . My idea is
>to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the other . Probably
>around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1" thick . My concern is
>the bond between brass and steel . My first idea was to cast the brass
>to the steel , then machine to final size . This will mean preheating
>the steel so the brass doesn't chill and solidify too soon . The only
>way I can see this working is to machine a recess in the steel or to
>clamp a band around the preheated steel disc . Probably need to flux and
>prime with some brass brazing rod too . This thing will be hammered on ,
>so I doubt any kind of epoxy or other chemical bond will hold up for
>long . The brass side will have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus
>various size holes for pin punch operations . The steel side is for
>stamping or flattening type stuff .
> Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...

Given the differences in thermal coefficients of linear expansion, I'd
do this mechanically, by machining a threaded post and threaded recess
into which the post screws, and fix it all together with stud locking
locktite.

Joe

On 12/26/2023 9:27 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 12/26/2023 8:36 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 12/26/2023 6:39 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>    My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas
>>> gift , and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have
>>> too many bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one
>>> . My idea is to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the
>>> other . Probably around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1"
>>> thick . My concern is the bond between brass and steel . My first
>>> idea was to cast the brass to the steel , then machine to final size
>>> . This will mean preheating the steel so the brass doesn't chill and
>>> solidify too soon . The only way I can see this working is to machine
>>> a recess in the steel or to clamp a band around the preheated steel
>>> disc . Probably need to flux and prime with some brass brazing rod
>>> too . This thing will be hammered on , so I doubt any kind of epoxy
>>> or other chemical bond will hold up for long . The brass side will
>>> have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus various size holes for pin
>>> punch operations . The steel side is for stamping or flattening type
>>> stuff .
>>>    Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...
>>
>>
>> Brass and steel?  You almost certainly have to solder.  Maybe you can
>> get by with something like Silphous 15, but I would bet on an acid
>> paste flux and a separate silver solder.  Atleast you aren't upside
>> down and sideways behind a condenser.  You can do it on the bench.
>> You might be able to use generic plumbing solder, but you did say
>> "stay together."
>>
>> Nah, ignore all that'  I don't know nuthin'!
>>
>
>   I just happen to have a few sticks of silfos 15 out in the shop ...
> and some boric acid flux . But now ya got me thinkin' , how about
> phosphor bronze TIG filler ? I've got some silver solder here somewhere
> , but I haven't seen it in a couple or five years now - got it to
> repair/make some bandsaw blades and misplaced it almost immediately .
> I've also got regularbrass brazing rod on hand .

Silphos 15 is supposedly self fluxing. I found I was able to solder
copper on the bench with it without flux anyway. I didn't have so much
luck with out of position soldering.

I was thinking brazing might not be that great since you will be running
brass on brass. Brazing is more like soldering (should be) than
welding. Same on same is generally welding. even with a torch. I used
to torch weld mufflers with coat hangers.

> I'll still have to
> cast a slug for the brass side , which is why I was thinking about
> casting it right onto the steel .

I totally missed that. If you find the right preheat temperature for
the steel and maybe a flux it might be the best result. Maybe even
machine the steel to keylock with the brass when its cast.

All of that being said, I was wondering if a simple mechanical
connection might be as good as anything. He's not going to be beating
on a bench block with a 3lb machinist hammer, and he's not to likely to
be heating it directly either. You might be able to get away with
pinning the two pieces together with some sleeve and bearing locker.

I have a small bench block I use for tapping out pins on firearms, and
the heaviest hammer I have ever used on it is about 3 ounces. The same
hammer I used with a punch to peen screw slots back into a usable
condition for removal.

You aren't making a blacksmith swage. You are making a jewelers bench
block.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:umi18o$1mb3$1@dont-email.me...
....
I have a small bench block I use for tapping out pins on firearms, and
the heaviest hammer I have ever used on it is about 3 ounces. The same
hammer I used with a punch to peen screw slots back into a usable
condition for removal.

You aren't making a blacksmith swage. You are making a jewelers bench
block.
Bob La Londe

-------------------------

You never know. Today I tapped the pins out of three loose pin hinges
easily; the fourth had rusted and took several good whacks to loosen it.

On 12/27/2023 2:25 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 12/26/2023 9:27 PM, Snag wrote:
>> On 12/26/2023 8:36 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 12/26/2023 6:39 PM, Snag wrote:
>>>>    My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas
>>>> gift , and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have
>>>> too many bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one
>>>> . My idea is to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the
>>>> other . Probably around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1"
>>>> thick . My concern is the bond between brass and steel . My first
>>>> idea was to cast the brass to the steel , then machine to final size
>>>> . This will mean preheating the steel so the brass doesn't chill and
>>>> solidify too soon . The only way I can see this working is to
>>>> machine a recess in the steel or to clamp a band around the
>>>> preheated steel disc . Probably need to flux and prime with some
>>>> brass brazing rod too . This thing will be hammered on , so I doubt
>>>> any kind of epoxy or other chemical bond will hold up for long . The
>>>> brass side will have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus various
>>>> size holes for pin punch operations . The steel side is for stamping
>>>> or flattening type stuff .
>>>>    Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Brass and steel?  You almost certainly have to solder.  Maybe you can
>>> get by with something like Silphous 15, but I would bet on an acid
>>> paste flux and a separate silver solder.  Atleast you aren't upside
>>> down and sideways behind a condenser.  You can do it on the bench.
>>> You might be able to use generic plumbing solder, but you did say
>>> "stay together."
>>>
>>> Nah, ignore all that'  I don't know nuthin'!
>>>
>>
>>    I just happen to have a few sticks of silfos 15 out in the shop ...
>> and some boric acid flux . But now ya got me thinkin' , how about
>> phosphor bronze TIG filler ? I've got some silver solder here
>> somewhere , but I haven't seen it in a couple or five years now - got
>> it to repair/make some bandsaw blades and misplaced it almost
>> immediately . I've also got regularbrass brazing rod on hand .
>
> Silphos 15 is supposedly self fluxing.  I found I was able to solder
> copper on the bench with it without flux anyway.  I didn't have so much
> luck with out of position soldering.
>
> I was thinking brazing might not be that great since you will be running
> brass on brass.  Brazing is more like soldering (should be) than
> welding.  Same on same is generally welding.  even with a torch.  I used
> to torch weld mufflers with coat hangers.
>
>
>> I'll still have to cast a slug for the brass side , which is why I was
>> thinking about casting it right onto the steel .
>
> I totally missed that.  If you find the right preheat temperature for
> the steel and maybe a flux it might be the best result.  Maybe even
> machine the steel to keylock with the brass when its cast.
>
> All of that being said, I was wondering if a simple mechanical
> connection might be as good as anything.  He's not going to be beating
> on a bench block with a 3lb machinist hammer, and he's not to likely to
> be heating it directly either.  You might be able to get away with
> pinning the two pieces together with some sleeve and bearing locker.
>
> I have a small bench block I use for tapping out pins on firearms, and
> the heaviest hammer I have ever used on it is about 3 ounces.  The same
> hammer I used with a punch to peen screw slots back into a usable
> condition for removal.
>
> You aren't making a blacksmith swage.  You are making a jewelers bench
> block.
>

As Jim suggested , a keylock machined feature . As you suggest , a
preheated steel block and flux for the pour . I think I'm going to use a
mix of bearing bronze shavings and some faucet chunks . Cartridge brass
is probably too soft for this piece .
This guy has been really good to me , bought a few pieces of silver ,
a couple of jewelry purchases for my wife . And a jeweler can't have too
many bench blocks . That'd be like a mechanic having too many wrenches
or a blacksmith too many hammers and tongs !
--
Snag
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

On 12/27/2023 1:37 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 19:39:12 -0600, Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> My friend the jeweler did me a real solid on my wife's Christmas gift
>> , and I want to do something for him . Jewelers can never have too many
>> bench blocks , and I'd like to make him a sorta special one . My idea is
>> to make one that's steel on one side and brass on the other . Probably
>> around 2 1/2 to 3" in diameter and around 3/4 - 1" thick . My concern is
>> the bond between brass and steel . My first idea was to cast the brass
>> to the steel , then machine to final size . This will mean preheating
>> the steel so the brass doesn't chill and solidify too soon . The only
>> way I can see this working is to machine a recess in the steel or to
>> clamp a band around the preheated steel disc . Probably need to flux and
>> prime with some brass brazing rod too . This thing will be hammered on ,
>> so I doubt any kind of epoxy or other chemical bond will hold up for
>> long . The brass side will have vee and maybe half-round grooves plus
>> various size holes for pin punch operations . The steel side is for
>> stamping or flattening type stuff .
>> Ideas on forming a lasting bond are welcome ...
>
> Given the differences in thermal coefficients of linear expansion, I'd
> do this mechanically, by machining a threaded post and threaded recess
> into which the post screws, and fix it all together with stud locking
> locktite.
>
> Joe
>

Or as Jim suggested , a machined feature that the brass can shrink to
fit tightly as it cools . That T/C can work for you or against you ...
--
Snag
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:42:27 -0600
Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>
>This guy has been really good to me , bought a few pieces of silver ,
>a couple of jewelry purchases for my wife . And a jeweler can't have too
>many bench blocks . That'd be like a mechanic having too many wrenches
>or a blacksmith too many hammers and tongs !

If you're feeling really generous... offer to make an improved version
after he has had time to work with this one and see where changes could
be made...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 12/28/2023 10:45 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 17:42:27 -0600
> Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> This guy has been really good to me , bought a few pieces of silver ,
>> a couple of jewelry purchases for my wife . And a jeweler can't have too
>> many bench blocks . That'd be like a mechanic having too many wrenches
>> or a blacksmith too many hammers and tongs !
>
> If you're feeling really generous... offer to make an improved version
> after he has had time to work with this one and see where changes could
> be made...
>

I've already got a couple of things that I'm not seeing on commercial
blocks .
--
Snag
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum