https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third

"Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
all the segregated bike stuff.

“Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
doubled them in some places.

“The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
and casualties will come down if you put them in.

“Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
yourself properly on the road.

“But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."

.... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.

But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>
> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
> all the segregated bike stuff.
>
> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
> doubled them in some places.
>
> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>
> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
> yourself properly on the road.
>
> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>
> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>
> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>
>
As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.

And absolutely should not be taken a face value!

Roger Merriman

On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>
>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>
>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>> doubled them in some places.
>>
>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>
>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>> yourself properly on the road.
>>
>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>
>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>
>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>
>>
> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>
> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!

I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
Stops.

However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>
>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>
>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>
>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>
>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>
>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>
>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>
>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>
>>>
>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>
>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>
> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
> Stops.
>
> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>

Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
cycleway I use on the commute.

Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.

But in terms of data it’s lifted just numbers not rate ie cycling
particularly is growing and had a boost during Covid. Ie it’s just used to
justify a headline and so on.

Ie you can use data in all sorts of ways hence the various cynical quotes
about statistics!

Roger Merriman

On 1/17/2024 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>
>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>
>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>
>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>
>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>
>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>
>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>
>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>
>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>
>> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
>> Stops.
>>
>> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
>> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>>
>
> Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
> cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
> terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
> some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
> etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
> cycleway I use on the commute.
>
> Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
> what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
> has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
> when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.

Those statements are yet more examples of excusing facility failures,
and claiming that the _latest_ or the _next_ iteration of segregated
facilities will finally bring the miracles that segregation proponents
promised all along. Despite the fact that every previous iteration has
failed to deliver.

> But in terms of data it’s lifted just numbers not rate ie cycling
> particularly is growing and had a boost during Covid. Ie it’s just used to
> justify a headline and so on.
>
> Ie you can use data in all sorts of ways hence the various cynical quotes
> about statistics!

So wait - are you saying that KSI events have _not_ risen more rapidly
than bike ridership?

If so, can you present data that counters the data in the article?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
> >
> > "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
> > all the segregated bike stuff.
> >
> > “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
> > doubled them in some places.
> >
> > “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
> > and casualties will come down if you put them in.
> >
> > “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
> > environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
> > yourself properly on the road.
> >
> > “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
> > are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
> > cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
> >
> > ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
> >
> > But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
> >
> >
> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>
> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>
> Roger Merriman
Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow? In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there is no question where bike lanes are. Don't invent reasons for not liking bike lanes, They have shown to be effective at preventing accidents in most places that they have been properly executed.

On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>
>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>
>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>
>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>
>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>
>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>
>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>
>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>
>>>
>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>
>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?

Not much, but more than you I'm sure!

> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there is no question where bike lanes are.

:-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
under snow here!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/17/2024 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>
>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>
>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>
>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>
>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>
>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>
>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>
>>> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
>>> Stops.
>>>
>>> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
>>> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>>>
>>
>> Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
>> cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
>> terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
>> some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
>> etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
>> cycleway I use on the commute.
>>
>> Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
>> what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
>> has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
>> when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.
>
> Those statements are yet more examples of excusing facility failures,
> and claiming that the _latest_ or the _next_ iteration of segregated
> facilities will finally bring the miracles that segregation proponents
> promised all along. Despite the fact that every previous iteration has
> failed to deliver.
>
It’s always been poor barely more than box ticking exercise, it is one of
the well used routes into london but unlike the route that connects up to
the Embankment which has Richmond Park etc, it is almost entirely high
streets so lots of junction and so on.

It made a link on the map but bar navigation for new commuters no help
whatsoever even when new folks said this isn’t good.

Ie it’s never been good. I’m told that they have added some wands but
clearly not segregation in any meaningful sense, like Chiswick high street
for example.

>> But in terms of data it’s lifted just numbers not rate ie cycling
>> particularly is growing and had a boost during Covid. Ie it’s just used to
>> justify a headline and so on.
>>
>> Ie you can use data in all sorts of ways hence the various cynical quotes
>> about statistics!
>
> So wait - are you saying that KSI events have _not_ risen more rapidly
> than bike ridership?
>
> If so, can you present data that counters the data in the article?
>
I’m saying I’d take that article with huge cynicism it’s an opinion piece
with lifted phases from folks and so on. If one wanted to TFL do present
data regularly if you want to dig. Im unlikely to do so unless I’m very
bored!

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>
>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>
>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>
>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>
>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>
>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>
>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>
>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>
>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>
> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>
>> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
>> is no question where bike lanes are.
>
> :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
> under snow here!"
>
Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
by plow.

Roger Merriman

On 1/18/2024 5:34 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/17/2024 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>
>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>
>>>> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
>>>> Stops.
>>>>
>>>> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
>>>> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
>>> cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
>>> terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
>>> some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
>>> etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
>>> cycleway I use on the commute.
>>>
>>> Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
>>> what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
>>> has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
>>> when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.
>>
>> Those statements are yet more examples of excusing facility failures,
>> and claiming that the _latest_ or the _next_ iteration of segregated
>> facilities will finally bring the miracles that segregation proponents
>> promised all along. Despite the fact that every previous iteration has
>> failed to deliver.
>>
> It’s always been poor barely more than box ticking exercise, it is one of
> the well used routes into london but unlike the route that connects up to
> the Embankment which has Richmond Park etc, it is almost entirely high
> streets so lots of junction and so on.
>
> It made a link on the map but bar navigation for new commuters no help
> whatsoever even when new folks said this isn’t good.
>
> Ie it’s never been good. I’m told that they have added some wands but
> clearly not segregation in any meaningful sense, like Chiswick high street
> for example.

Again, that's just repeating that "What we asked for five years ago is
terrible. We now demand much more, _then_ the miracles will happen."

It is obviously impossible to use hardened barriers to separate all bike
traffic from all motor vehicle traffic. It will never happen.

>> So wait - are you saying that KSI events have _not_ risen more rapidly
>> than bike ridership?
>>
>> If so, can you present data that counters the data in the article?
>>
> I’m saying I’d take that article with huge cynicism it’s an opinion piece
> with lifted phases from folks and so on. If one wanted to TFL do present
> data regularly if you want to dig. Im unlikely to do so unless I’m very
> bored!

Here's what I see: The data cited in the article say KSI injuries have
increased far faster than bike trips. I can accept that point, as it's
in line with what I know about the effects of segregated infrastructure.

If you claim that data is false, it's up to you to provide better data.
I'm not the one with an obligation to dig!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 5:34 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>
>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>
>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>
>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>
>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>
>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>
>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>
>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>
>>> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
>>> is no question where bike lanes are.
>>
>> :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
>> under snow here!"
>>
> Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
> anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
> by plow.

The point is, a bike lane buried in ice and snow is useless or worse.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 5:34 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2024 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
>>>>> Stops.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
>>>>> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
>>>> cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
>>>> terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
>>>> some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
>>>> etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
>>>> cycleway I use on the commute.
>>>>
>>>> Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
>>>> what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
>>>> has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
>>>> when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.
>>>
>>> Those statements are yet more examples of excusing facility failures,
>>> and claiming that the _latest_ or the _next_ iteration of segregated
>>> facilities will finally bring the miracles that segregation proponents
>>> promised all along. Despite the fact that every previous iteration has
>>> failed to deliver.
>>>
>> It’s always been poor barely more than box ticking exercise, it is one of
>> the well used routes into london but unlike the route that connects up to
>> the Embankment which has Richmond Park etc, it is almost entirely high
>> streets so lots of junction and so on.
>>
>> It made a link on the map but bar navigation for new commuters no help
>> whatsoever even when new folks said this isn’t good.
>>
>> Ie it’s never been good. I’m told that they have added some wands but
>> clearly not segregation in any meaningful sense, like Chiswick high street
>> for example.
>
> Again, that's just repeating that "What we asked for five years ago is
> terrible. We now demand much more, _then_ the miracles will happen."

No it was terrible then and many folks said so at the time, the Embankment
to Westminster is another thing and largely has remained the same, and
generally works, CS7 is busy as it’s the direct road in Roman road so not
many curves.
>
> It is obviously impossible to use hardened barriers to separate all bike
> traffic from all motor vehicle traffic. It will never happen.

Chiswick high street which is close to CS7 in feel ie a high street uses
cycle light stages. Which seems to work the Embankment and my old cycleway
have less junctions and lots of space any way.
>
>>> So wait - are you saying that KSI events have _not_ risen more rapidly
>>> than bike ridership?
>>>
>>> If so, can you present data that counters the data in the article?
>>>
>> I’m saying I’d take that article with huge cynicism it’s an opinion piece
>> with lifted phases from folks and so on. If one wanted to TFL do present
>> data regularly if you want to dig. Im unlikely to do so unless I’m very
>> bored!
>
> Here's what I see: The data cited in the article say KSI injuries have
> increased far faster than bike trips. I can accept that point, as it's
> in line with what I know about the effects of segregated infrastructure.
>
> If you claim that data is false, it's up to you to provide better data.
> I'm not the one with an obligation to dig!
>
Much like Tom and clickbate stuff which largely this is, 2017 seems to be a
low year, and there is huge variation within each London Boroughs, both in
terms of cycling numbers and causalities. Both of which are clustered
around central London.

it’s complex and nowhere as simple as the clickbate suggests.

Roger Merriman

On 1/18/2024 8:18 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 5:34 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/17/2024 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
>>>>>> Stops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
>>>>>> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
>>>>> cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
>>>>> terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
>>>>> some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
>>>>> etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
>>>>> cycleway I use on the commute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
>>>>> what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
>>>>> has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
>>>>> when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Those statements are yet more examples of excusing facility failures,
>>>> and claiming that the _latest_ or the _next_ iteration of segregated
>>>> facilities will finally bring the miracles that segregation proponents
>>>> promised all along. Despite the fact that every previous iteration has
>>>> failed to deliver.
>>>>
>>> It’s always been poor barely more than box ticking exercise, it is one of
>>> the well used routes into london but unlike the route that connects up to
>>> the Embankment which has Richmond Park etc, it is almost entirely high
>>> streets so lots of junction and so on.
>>>
>>> It made a link on the map but bar navigation for new commuters no help
>>> whatsoever even when new folks said this isn’t good.
>>>
>>> Ie it’s never been good. I’m told that they have added some wands but
>>> clearly not segregation in any meaningful sense, like Chiswick high street
>>> for example.
>>
>> Again, that's just repeating that "What we asked for five years ago is
>> terrible. We now demand much more, _then_ the miracles will happen."
>
> No it was terrible then and many folks said so at the time, the Embankment
> to Westminster is another thing and largely has remained the same, and
> generally works, CS7 is busy as it’s the direct road in Roman road so not
> many curves.
>>
>> It is obviously impossible to use hardened barriers to separate all bike
>> traffic from all motor vehicle traffic. It will never happen.
>
> Chiswick high street which is close to CS7 in feel ie a high street uses
> cycle light stages. Which seems to work the Embankment and my old cycleway
> have less junctions and lots of space any way.
>>
>>>> So wait - are you saying that KSI events have _not_ risen more rapidly
>>>> than bike ridership?
>>>>
>>>> If so, can you present data that counters the data in the article?
>>>>
>>> I’m saying I’d take that article with huge cynicism it’s an opinion piece
>>> with lifted phases from folks and so on. If one wanted to TFL do present
>>> data regularly if you want to dig. Im unlikely to do so unless I’m very
>>> bored!
>>
>> Here's what I see: The data cited in the article say KSI injuries have
>> increased far faster than bike trips. I can accept that point, as it's
>> in line with what I know about the effects of segregated infrastructure.
>>
>> If you claim that data is false, it's up to you to provide better data.
>> I'm not the one with an obligation to dig!
>>
> Much like Tom and clickbate stuff which largely this is, 2017 seems to be a
> low year, and there is huge variation within each London Boroughs, both in
> terms of cycling numbers and causalities. Both of which are clustered
> around central London.
>
> it’s complex and nowhere as simple as the clickbate suggests.

But please give data, if you've got some! The overall picture certainly
doesn't justify the utopian claims.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 8:18 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 5:34 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/17/2024 1:13 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 7:38 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll defer to you about his motivations. I know almost nothing about Mr.
>>>>>>> Stops.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, what he said (and I quoted above) matches my experience. And I
>>>>>>> assume the data in the article is true, which is further corroboration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its more of opinion piece with the random data attached, note that the
>>>>>> cycle lane CS7 they are talking about has always been the ugly duckling in
>>>>>> terms of the super cycle ways was just paint, I believe they have added
>>>>>> some wands in some places don’t believe any of the junctions are protected
>>>>>> etc, ie it doesn’t compare well to others or even my 50 something old
>>>>>> cycleway I use on the commute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ie it’s technically in some parts a segregated cyclelane but it’s a not
>>>>>> what folks would think of or expect, I mean the Embankment to Westminster
>>>>>> has some wands in places but it’s really not segregated and a world apart
>>>>>> when you reach the proper stuff ie Westminster to Tower, and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those statements are yet more examples of excusing facility failures,
>>>>> and claiming that the _latest_ or the _next_ iteration of segregated
>>>>> facilities will finally bring the miracles that segregation proponents
>>>>> promised all along. Despite the fact that every previous iteration has
>>>>> failed to deliver.
>>>>>
>>>> It’s always been poor barely more than box ticking exercise, it is one of
>>>> the well used routes into london but unlike the route that connects up to
>>>> the Embankment which has Richmond Park etc, it is almost entirely high
>>>> streets so lots of junction and so on.
>>>>
>>>> It made a link on the map but bar navigation for new commuters no help
>>>> whatsoever even when new folks said this isn’t good.
>>>>
>>>> Ie it’s never been good. I’m told that they have added some wands but
>>>> clearly not segregation in any meaningful sense, like Chiswick high street
>>>> for example.
>>>
>>> Again, that's just repeating that "What we asked for five years ago is
>>> terrible. We now demand much more, _then_ the miracles will happen."
>>
>> No it was terrible then and many folks said so at the time, the Embankment
>> to Westminster is another thing and largely has remained the same, and
>> generally works, CS7 is busy as it’s the direct road in Roman road so not
>> many curves.
>>>
>>> It is obviously impossible to use hardened barriers to separate all bike
>>> traffic from all motor vehicle traffic. It will never happen.
>>
>> Chiswick high street which is close to CS7 in feel ie a high street uses
>> cycle light stages. Which seems to work the Embankment and my old cycleway
>> have less junctions and lots of space any way.
>>>
>>>>> So wait - are you saying that KSI events have _not_ risen more rapidly
>>>>> than bike ridership?
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, can you present data that counters the data in the article?
>>>>>
>>>> I’m saying I’d take that article with huge cynicism it’s an opinion piece
>>>> with lifted phases from folks and so on. If one wanted to TFL do present
>>>> data regularly if you want to dig. Im unlikely to do so unless I’m very
>>>> bored!
>>>
>>> Here's what I see: The data cited in the article say KSI injuries have
>>> increased far faster than bike trips. I can accept that point, as it's
>>> in line with what I know about the effects of segregated infrastructure.
>>>
>>> If you claim that data is false, it's up to you to provide better data.
>>> I'm not the one with an obligation to dig!
>>>
>> Much like Tom and clickbate stuff which largely this is, 2017 seems to be a
>> low year, and there is huge variation within each London Boroughs, both in
>> terms of cycling numbers and causalities. Both of which are clustered
>> around central London.
>>
>> it’s complex and nowhere as simple as the clickbate suggests.
>
> But please give data, if you've got some! The overall picture certainly
> doesn't justify the utopian claims.
>
The links are in the article to TfL data, where you can adjust and so on,
london is far from utopian for cycling but is improving.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:34:37 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
> >>>>
> >>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
> >>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
> >>>> doubled them in some places.
> >>>>
> >>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
> >>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
> >>>>
> >>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
> >>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
> >>>> yourself properly on the road.
> >>>>
> >>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
> >>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
> >>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
> >>>>
> >>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
> >>>>
> >>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
> >>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
> >>>
> >>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
> >
> > Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
> >
> >> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
> >> is no question where bike lanes are.
> >
> > :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
> > under snow here!"
> >
> Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
> anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
> by plow.
>
> Roger Merriman

Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER, So in fact it is not more than me since I have ridden in very heavy hail (the size of quarters) on several occasions which are very large snowflakes. It certainly was not done on purpose and we had to seek shelter under evergreens until it moderated or stopped but we had to carry on barely able to distinguish the roadside from the road. This is where Frank says he would take the lane in from of marginally controllable vehicles.

On 1/19/2024 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:34:37 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>
>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>
>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>>
>>>> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
>>>> is no question where bike lanes are.
>>>
>>> :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
>>> under snow here!"
>>>
>> Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
>> anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
>> by plow.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER, So in fact it is not more than me since I have ridden in very heavy hail (the size of quarters) on several occasions which are very large snowflakes.

a Hail stone is a very large snowflake? lol....

> It certainly was not done on purpose and we had to seek shelter under evergreens until it moderated or stopped but we had to carry on barely able to distinguish the roadside from the road. This is where Frank says he would take the lane in from of marginally controllable vehicles.

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/19/2024 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>
>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>
> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER...

It's been years since I've ridden in deep snow. That was back when I was
still mountain biking, and I took my mountain bike on rides through the
snow in the forest preserve that's close to my house.

I'm not sure what you consider "deep." I think the deepest might have
been about six inches of dense, wet snow. My best riding buddy at the
time joined me in attempting to plow through that stuff. We decided it
wasn't fun. It was like trying to ride through mashed potatoes.

I don't think I rode in snow at all last year, because we got almost
zero snow. The year before I did a fair amount of short distance utility
riding on snowy streets. It's not difficult if you're careful and take
it slow, especially on turns.

> .. I have ridden in very heavy hail (the size of quarters) on several occasions which are very large snowflakes.

:-) Hail pieces the size of quarters are very large snowflakes??

HAHAHAHAHA!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:34:37 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>
>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>
>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>>
>>>> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
>>>> is no question where bike lanes are.
>>>
>>> :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
>>> under snow here!"
>>>
>> Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
>> anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
>> by plow.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER,
> So in fact it is not more than me since I have ridden in very heavy hail
> (the size of quarters) on several occasions which are very large
> snowflakes. It certainly was not done on purpose and we had to seek
> shelter under evergreens until it moderated or stopped but we had to
> carry on barely able to distinguish the roadside from the road. This is
> where Frank says he would take the lane in from of marginally controllable vehicles.
>
Seriously you live in California which at the closest area to cull canyon
temperatures in the high to low teens where as Youngstown being rather more
north and I believe the Great Lakes do weather stuff, is -8/9 or so and
light snow predicted and Frank has said there is snow settled.

Even London is colder than California let alone tomorrow into the Surrey
hills (Gravel ride) which is predicted to be just above freezing all day,
had been -3/4 or so last few days at night.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/19/2024 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>>
>>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>
>> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER...
>
> It's been years since I've ridden in deep snow. That was back when I was
> still mountain biking, and I took my mountain bike on rides through the
> snow in the forest preserve that's close to my house.
>
> I'm not sure what you consider "deep." I think the deepest might have
> been about six inches of dense, wet snow. My best riding buddy at the
> time joined me in attempting to plow through that stuff. We decided it
> wasn't fun. It was like trying to ride through mashed potatoes.

Older MTB I did find could get overwhelmed by snow if deep enough more
modern ones seem to a point fine, I suspect this is more down to tires, the
more modern MTB have larger more burly tires and will hook up fine, and
personally I really enjoy it it like mud it’s hard work, though a lot
cleaner!
>
> I don't think I rode in snow at all last year, because we got almost
> zero snow. The year before I did a fair amount of short distance utility
> riding on snowy streets. It's not difficult if you're careful and take
> it slow, especially on turns.
>
Don’t think I did last year, London rarely does so I need to have been in
Wales at the correct time, I drove in snow but didn’t cycle as well I had
to drive home that day.
>
>> .. I have ridden in very heavy hail (the size of quarters) on several
>> occasions which are very large snowflakes.
>
> :-) Hail pieces the size of quarters are very large snowflakes??
>
> HAHAHAHAHA!
>
Roger Merriman

On 1/19/2024 5:45 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/19/2024 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>>
>>> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER...
>>
>> It's been years since I've ridden in deep snow. That was back when I was
>> still mountain biking, and I took my mountain bike on rides through the
>> snow in the forest preserve that's close to my house.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you consider "deep." I think the deepest might have
>> been about six inches of dense, wet snow. My best riding buddy at the
>> time joined me in attempting to plow through that stuff. We decided it
>> wasn't fun. It was like trying to ride through mashed potatoes.
>
> Older MTB I did find could get overwhelmed by snow if deep enough more
> modern ones seem to a point fine, I suspect this is more down to tires, the
> more modern MTB have larger more burly tires and will hook up fine, and
> personally I really enjoy it it like mud it’s hard work, though a lot
> cleaner!
>>
>> I don't think I rode in snow at all last year, because we got almost
>> zero snow. The year before I did a fair amount of short distance utility
>> riding on snowy streets. It's not difficult if you're careful and take
>> it slow, especially on turns.
>>
> Don’t think I did last year, London rarely does so I need to have been in
> Wales at the correct time, I drove in snow but didn’t cycle as well I had
> to drive home that day.
>>
>>> .. I have ridden in very heavy hail (the size of quarters) on several
>>> occasions which are very large snowflakes.
>>
>> :-) Hail pieces the size of quarters are very large snowflakes??
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHA!
>>
> Roger Merriman
>
>

Less snow, same cyclist gripes:

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/londons-cycle-lanes-left-neglected-as-snow-continues-to-fall
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/19/2024 5:45 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/19/2024 2:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>>>
>>>> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER...
>>>
>>> It's been years since I've ridden in deep snow. That was back when I was
>>> still mountain biking, and I took my mountain bike on rides through the
>>> snow in the forest preserve that's close to my house.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you consider "deep." I think the deepest might have
>>> been about six inches of dense, wet snow. My best riding buddy at the
>>> time joined me in attempting to plow through that stuff. We decided it
>>> wasn't fun. It was like trying to ride through mashed potatoes.
>>
>> Older MTB I did find could get overwhelmed by snow if deep enough more
>> modern ones seem to a point fine, I suspect this is more down to tires, the
>> more modern MTB have larger more burly tires and will hook up fine, and
>> personally I really enjoy it it like mud it’s hard work, though a lot
>> cleaner!
>>>
>>> I don't think I rode in snow at all last year, because we got almost
>>> zero snow. The year before I did a fair amount of short distance utility
>>> riding on snowy streets. It's not difficult if you're careful and take
>>> it slow, especially on turns.
>>>
>> Don’t think I did last year, London rarely does so I need to have been in
>> Wales at the correct time, I drove in snow but didn’t cycle as well I had
>> to drive home that day.
>>>
>>>> .. I have ridden in very heavy hail (the size of quarters) on several
>>>> occasions which are very large snowflakes.
>>>
>>> :-) Hail pieces the size of quarters are very large snowflakes??
>>>
>>> HAHAHAHAHA!
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
> Less snow, same cyclist gripes:
>
> https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/londons-cycle-lanes-left-neglected-as-snow-continues-to-fall

That’s from 2018 which might be last time it snowed in london? London has
only a handful of snowblowers/plows about 1 per borough, so very few
roads/pavements/cycleways get cleared it’s unusual for it to snow and
settle in london so it’s not set up for it.

it causes huge disruption to public transport if it does settle the roads
as bus routes close and so on, and folks inexperienced driving in the snow.

From memory the awkward sections where the compress snow where vehicles had
driven the old cycleway was fine as well doesn’t get cars or much foot
traffic so generally ice or compressed ice didn’t form.

Ie it’s a non issue for london, less so for more northern cities but even
so mostly only a few days at most.

Different to somewhere that it will snow fairly often and predictable where
dealing with it should be part of the plan be that cyclelanes/bus routes
and so on.

Roger Merriman

Am Sat, 20 Jan 2024 00:11:16 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

[...]

>> Less snow, same cyclist gripes:
>>
>> https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/londons-cycle-lanes-left-neglected-as-snow-continues-to-fall
>
>That’s from 2018 which might be last time it snowed in london? London has
>only a handful of snowblowers/plows about 1 per borough, so very few
>roads/pavements/cycleways get cleared it’s unusual for it to snow and
>settle in london so it’s not set up for it.

Excuses, excuses. Why is it so difficult to admit that cycle lanes and
paths are simply the inferior part of roads, everywhere and all the year
round? They are built inferiorly and then neglected.

Here is a collage from today. It had snowed the whole day long,
yesterday, and over the night. So everybody and their children where
outside. Wo got for a walk up an hill nearby, too. I mostly took
pictures of the nice landscape and view

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20240120/winter.jpg>,

but I also took the opportunity to take a few photos of cycle paths in
the city, when getting back. These aren't particularly cherry-picked
examples, but rather the better ones.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/2024-01-20_bonn_germany.jpg>

Bonn has a lot of equipment to clear the roads of dirt and snow, they
have a lot of salt too - and boy do they use it! :-(

--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sat, 20 Jan 2024 00:11:16 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Less snow, same cyclist gripes:
>>>
>>> https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/londons-cycle-lanes-left-neglected-as-snow-continues-to-fall
>>
>> That’s from 2018 which might be last time it snowed in london? London has
>> only a handful of snowblowers/plows about 1 per borough, so very few
>> roads/pavements/cycleways get cleared it’s unusual for it to snow and
>> settle in london so it’s not set up for it.
>
> Excuses, excuses. Why is it so difficult to admit that cycle lanes and
> paths are simply the inferior part of roads, everywhere and all the year
> round? They are built inferiorly and then neglected.

It really doesn’t snow in london ie once every 5 years and clearly is
getting less likely as temperatures rise.

And frankly never did, so london doesn’t have much set up for
roads/pavement or bike lanes, it does have a number of gritters and even a
few mini ones for the segregated cycleways though I’d assume like the full
sized ones these are adapted street cleaners and so on.

But frankly if it does snow and settles the public transport and private
cars become chaos with various lines/routes cancelled not running and cars
stuck etc.

as well london isn’t set up for it, perhaps needing to grit some road and
pavements and yes cycle lanes is about all it can cope with and even then
has so few for the population under 40 for population of some 10 million
within the london borough boundaries, is same number of gritters that
Surrey has with a 10th of the population same sized area and much much less
roads.

Arguably the why don’t they clear snow from bike lanes etc is fair enough
to ask of Manchester or other northern towns but London?
>
> Here is a collage from today. It had snowed the whole day long,
> yesterday, and over the night. So everybody and their children where
> outside. Wo got for a walk up an hill nearby, too. I mostly took
> pictures of the nice landscape and view
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/20240120/winter.jpg>,
>
> but I also took the opportunity to take a few photos of cycle paths in
> the city, when getting back. These aren't particularly cherry-picked
> examples, but rather the better ones.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/2024-01-20_bonn_germany.jpg>
>
> Bonn has a lot of equipment to clear the roads of dirt and snow, they
> have a lot of salt too - and boy do they use it! :-(
>
>
Roger Merriman

On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:34:37 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
> >>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
> >>>>>> doubled them in some places.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
> >>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
> >>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
> >>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
> >>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
> >>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
> >>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
> >>>
> >>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
> >>>
> >>>> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
> >>>> is no question where bike lanes are.
> >>>
> >>> :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
> >>> under snow here!"
> >>>
> >> Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
> >> anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
> >> by plow.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER,
> > So in fact it is not more than me since I have ridden in very heavy hail
> > (the size of quarters) on several occasions which are very large
> > snowflakes. It certainly was not done on purpose and we had to seek
> > shelter under evergreens until it moderated or stopped but we had to
> > carry on barely able to distinguish the roadside from the road. This is
> > where Frank says he would take the lane in from of marginally controllable vehicles.
> >
> Seriously you live in California which at the closest area to cull canyon
> temperatures in the high to low teens where as Youngstown being rather more
> north and I believe the Great Lakes do weather stuff, is -8/9 or so and
> light snow predicted and Frank has said there is snow settled.
>
> Even London is colder than California let alone tomorrow into the Surrey
> hills (Gravel ride) which is predicted to be just above freezing all day,
> had been -3/4 or so last few days at night.
>
> Roger Merriman

Rodger, in general you are correct that the further north latitude the colder it is on the average. But that certainly depends on weather patterns and last year or the year before it was well below 0 C here for most of the mornings weeks at a time. I think that I related slipping in glare ice and sliding all the way to the side of the road before catching traction again at NOON. And while London is far north at 51 degrees north latitude it is heated by the Gulf Stream whereas we at 37 degrees latitude are cooled by arctic currents.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 2:34:37 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/17/2024 6:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:38:41 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/15012024-fatal-and-serious-cycling-collisions-in-london-up-by-a-third
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Serious collisions for cyclists have gone up since the Mayor started
>>>>>>>> all the segregated bike stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “Putting in bike lanes has not brought casualties down but instead
>>>>>>>> doubled them in some places.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “The problem is that there is a presumption that all bike lanes are good
>>>>>>>> and casualties will come down if you put them in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “Whereas, in fact, in terms of cycling, they introduce a less safe
>>>>>>>> environment because, in order to cycle safely, you need to position
>>>>>>>> yourself properly on the road.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “But what a bike lane does is leave you too close to the curb, so if you
>>>>>>>> are travelling straight on, adjacent to a turning, you will find that
>>>>>>>> cars will turn across you because you are not visible to them."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... and much more. Ridership is up, but KSI crashes are up far more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But hey, Any Bike Facility Is A Good Bike Facility. Just ask the promoters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As ever context is everything “Vincent Stops” is an anti bike and change
>>>>>>> campaigner fairly unpleasant piece of work really.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And absolutely should not be taken a face value!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>> Krygowski, how often and what distances do you ride in deep snow?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not much, but more than you I'm sure!
>>>>>
>>>>>> In areas where bike lanes can be hidden by snow you place signs so there
>>>>>> is no question where bike lanes are.
>>>>>
>>>>> :-) That sounds lovely - a sign that says "There's a bike lane buried
>>>>> under snow here!"
>>>>>
>>>> Apparently some places use lights is shine the the bike sign as obviously
>>>> anything painted will be buried under the snow even if smooth and cleared
>>>> by plow.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Frank again can't stop himself from lying. By "not much" he means NEVER,
>>> So in fact it is not more than me since I have ridden in very heavy hail
>>> (the size of quarters) on several occasions which are very large
>>> snowflakes. It certainly was not done on purpose and we had to seek
>>> shelter under evergreens until it moderated or stopped but we had to
>>> carry on barely able to distinguish the roadside from the road. This is
>>> where Frank says he would take the lane in from of marginally controllable vehicles.
>>>
>> Seriously you live in California which at the closest area to cull canyon
>> temperatures in the high to low teens where as Youngstown being rather more
>> north and I believe the Great Lakes do weather stuff, is -8/9 or so and
>> light snow predicted and Frank has said there is snow settled.
>>
>> Even London is colder than California let alone tomorrow into the Surrey
>> hills (Gravel ride) which is predicted to be just above freezing all day,
>> had been -3/4 or so last few days at night.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Rodger, in general you are correct that the further north latitude the
> colder it is on the average. But that certainly depends on weather
> patterns and last year or the year before it was well below 0 C here for
> most of the mornings weeks at a time. I think that I related slipping in
> glare ice and sliding all the way to the side of the road before catching
> traction again at NOON. And while London is far north at 51 degrees north
> latitude it is heated by the Gulf Stream whereas we at 37 degrees
> latitude are cooled by arctic currents.
>
Unless the weather reports are way out, and by reputation California is
significantly warmer than London let alone into the Surrey Hills and London
yes is kept warm by the Gulf Stream and being a smaller land mass it’s same
latitude as Moscow.

You live in a warmer drier climate by some degree for both.

I’d assume all here bar perhaps CatTrike have colder winters.

Roger Merriman