The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg

On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>
> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg

pffft. They should get all they signed up for.

Meanwhile cyclists are freezing (Dawn Patrol has been minus
10F with a biting wind this week) and looking for any dry
pavement amidst the packed ice layers.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>
>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>
> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.

I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
driving days.

I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>
>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across
>>> Chicagoland, but some
>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems
>>> as they deal
>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery
>>> life.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>
>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>
> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on
> my long driving days.
>
> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of
> Hormuz could cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really?
> [Yawn]"
>

I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not
all that dramatic:

2022:
https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/

Last month:
https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective

Lots of data but both frankly state there are big
assumptions regarding 'average' and individual cases will be
well outside those numbers. I'm happy that you're happy,
but there is probably more personal taste/personal
expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly economics.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>
>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>
>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>
> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> driving days.
>
> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>

Seems to be mostly a non issue with a mix of sane media ie not clickbate
and folks I know who have electric cars, after all number of Nordic
countries have high ownership rates of EV’s.

Roger Merriman

On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>
>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>
>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>> driving days.
>>
>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>
>
> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> dramatic:
>
> 2022:
> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>
> Last month:
> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>
> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers.  I'm
> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> economics.

As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
based on environmental conscience.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> >>>
> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> >>
> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> >> driving days.
> >>
> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> >>
> >
> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> > dramatic:
> >
> > 2022:
> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> >
> > Last month:
> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> >
> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> > economics.
> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> based on environmental conscience.
>

And in my case driver experience.

Lou

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:16:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>
>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>
>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>> driving days.
>>>
>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>
>>
>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>> dramatic:
>>
>> 2022:
>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>
>> Last month:
>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>
>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers.  I'm
>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>> economics.
>
>As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>based on environmental conscience.

<eyeroll>

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>> >>>
>> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>> >>
>> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>> >> driving days.
>> >>
>> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>> >>
>> >
>> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>> > dramatic:
>> >
>> > 2022:
>> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>> >
>> > Last month:
>> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>> >
>> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>> > economics.
>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>> based on environmental conscience.
>>
>
>And in my case driver experience.
>
>Lou

I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21 AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> >> >>>
> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> >> >> driving days.
> >> >>
> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> >> > dramatic:
> >> >
> >> > 2022:
> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> >> >
> >> > Last month:
> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> >> >
> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> >> > economics.
> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> >> based on environmental conscience.
> >>
> >
> >And in my case driver experience.
> >
> >Lou
> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.

I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.

Lou

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>> >> >> driving days.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>> >> > dramatic:
>> >> >
>> >> > 2022:
>> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>> >> >
>> >> > Last month:
>> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>> >> >
>> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>> >> > economics.
>> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>> >> based on environmental conscience.
>> >>
>> >
>> >And in my case driver experience.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>
>I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>
>Lou

In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
out how to tax home EV charging

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28 AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> >> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> >> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> >> >> >> driving days.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> >> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> >> >> > dramatic:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2022:
> >> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Last month:
> >> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> >> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers.. I'm
> >> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> >> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> >> >> > economics.
> >> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> >> >> based on environmental conscience.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >And in my case driver experience.
> >> >
> >> >Lou
> >> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
> >> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
> >> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
> >
> >I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
> >
> >Lou
> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
> out how to tax home EV charging

Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.

Lou

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>> >> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>> >> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>> >> >> >> driving days.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>> >> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>> >> >> > dramatic:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2022:
>> >> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Last month:
>> >> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>> >> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>> >> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>> >> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>> >> >> > economics.
>> >> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>> >> >> based on environmental conscience.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >And in my case driver experience.
>> >> >
>> >> >Lou
>> >> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>> >> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>> >> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>> >
>> >I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>> out how to tax home EV charging
>
>
>Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>
>Lou

There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
to road construction and maintenance?

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 12:14:49 PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> >> >> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> >> >> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> >> >> >> >> driving days.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> >> >> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> >> >> >> > dramatic:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > 2022:
> >> >> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Last month:
> >> >> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> >> >> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
> >> >> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> >> >> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> >> >> >> > economics.
> >> >> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> >> >> >> based on environmental conscience.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >And in my case driver experience.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Lou
> >> >> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
> >> >> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
> >> >> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
> >> >
> >> >I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
> >> >
> >> >Lou
> >> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
> >> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
> >> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
> >> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
> >> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
> >> out how to tax home EV charging
> >
> >
> >Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
> >
> >Lou
> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
> to road construction and maintenance?
All taxes come in a big pot and is then distributed. The different budgets are political choices.

Lou

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>>>>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>>>>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>>>>
>>>> I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for
>>>> building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call
>>>> here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and
>>>> I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60
>>>> euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the
>>>> car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use
>>>> of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax
>>>> and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the
>>>> weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next
>>>> year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can
>>>> change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost
>>>> this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>>> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>>> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>>> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>>> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>>> out how to tax home EV charging
>>
>>
>> Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>>
>> Lou
>
> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
> to road construction and maintenance?
>

Like wise with UK roads and so on are paid out of general taxation, fuel
taxes and car taxes etc don’t cover it, which considering that UK pays more
in tax at the pump would assume that similar set up ie the fuel tax
wouldn’t cover road maintenance and so on.

Car tax did used to be road tax but it was changed by Winston Churchill to
stop claims of I paid for it etc.

Roger Merriman

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:28:56 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 12:14:49?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>> >> >> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>> >> >> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>> >> >> >> >> driving days.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>> >> >> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>> >> >> >> > dramatic:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > 2022:
>> >> >> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Last month:
>> >> >> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>> >> >> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>> >> >> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>> >> >> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>> >> >> >> > economics.
>> >> >> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>> >> >> >> based on environmental conscience.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >And in my case driver experience.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Lou
>> >> >> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>> >> >> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>> >> >> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>> >> >
>> >> >I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>> >> >
>> >> >Lou
>> >> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>> >> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>> >> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>> >> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>> >> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>> >> out how to tax home EV charging
>> >
>> >
>> >Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
>> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
>> to road construction and maintenance?
>
>All taxes come in a big pot and is then distributed. The different budgets are political choices.
>
>Lou

I didn't know that. It doesn't work that way in the USA.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 1:50:40 PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:28:56 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 12:14:49?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
> >> >> >> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
> >> >> >> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
> >> >> >> >> >> driving days.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
> >> >> >> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
> >> >> >> >> > dramatic:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > 2022:
> >> >> >> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Last month:
> >> >> >> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
> >> >> >> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
> >> >> >> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> >> >> >> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
> >> >> >> >> > economics.
> >> >> >> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
> >> >> >> >> based on environmental conscience.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >And in my case driver experience.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Lou
> >> >> >> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
> >> >> >> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
> >> >> >> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Lou
> >> >> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
> >> >> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
> >> >> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
> >> >> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
> >> >> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
> >> >> out how to tax home EV charging
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC..
> >> >
> >> >Lou
> >> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
> >> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
> >> to road construction and maintenance?
> >
> >All taxes come in a big pot and is then distributed. The different budgets are political choices.
> >
> >Lou
> I didn't know that. It doesn't work that way in the USA.

Well the result here is that we have excellent infrastructure and maintained roads and still some people are complaining about train delays and traffic jams. We are spoiled.

Lou

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 05:41:59 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 1:50:40?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:28:56 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 12:14:49?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> >> >> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>> >> >> >> >> >> driving days.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>> >> >> >> >> >> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>> >> >> >> >> > dramatic:
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > 2022:
>> >> >> >> >> > https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Last month:
>> >> >> >> >> > https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>> >> >> >> >> > 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>> >> >> >> >> > happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>> >> >> >> >> > taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>> >> >> >> >> > economics.
>> >> >> >> >> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>> >> >> >> >> based on environmental conscience.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >And in my case driver experience.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Lou
>> >> >> >> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>> >> >> >> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>> >> >> >> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Lou
>> >> >> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>> >> >> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>> >> >> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>> >> >> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>> >> >> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>> >> >> out how to tax home EV charging
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>> >> >
>> >> >Lou
>> >> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
>> >> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
>> >> to road construction and maintenance?
>> >
>> >All taxes come in a big pot and is then distributed. The different budgets are political choices.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> I didn't know that. It doesn't work that way in the USA.
>
>Well the result here is that we have excellent infrastructure and maintained roads and still some people are complaining about train delays and traffic jams. We are spoiled.
>
>Lou

Lots of us are spoiled nowdays. Home computers and cellphones, TVs and
DVD recorders, washers and dryers, dishwashers, microwaves, icemakers
in the fridge, but not may irons or ironing boards any more.

On 1/17/2024 3:42 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>> dramatic:
>>>>
>>>> 2022:
>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>
>>>> Last month:
>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>
>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>> economics.
>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>
>>
>> And in my case driver experience.
>>
>> Lou
>
> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.

You underestimate the deviousness and moral turpitude of
lawmakers. They will think of something new to tax. Probably
more than one...
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/17/2024 4:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21 AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2022:
>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>
>>>>> Last month:
>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>
>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>> economics.
>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>
> I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>
> Lou

I agree with you about future revenue policy creativity, but
as always there are unknown follow-on effects. As an
example, electric cars are significantly heavier at each
price level than IC; sort of the reverse effect of fuel taxes.

For a good long while British auto tax was based on
horsepower, which resulted in some every well engineered
small engine designs with low curb weight. As the world
changed with greater affluence, the British auto industry
had a very difficult time embracing changing consumer taste.
(not the only problem with world competitiveness for the
Brits, but still)

The 1957 British export tax on bicycles (a significant
foreign exchange area in the postwar recovery) was based on
carton size and weight, not value. There were some clever
and some ridiculous design changes to get the product under
the tax limits, one of which (the SW gearbox, forever
mnemonically 'Seldom Works') was a complete debacle.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 08:40:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/17/2024 3:42 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2022:
>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>
>>>>> Last month:
>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>
>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>> economics.
>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>
>You underestimate the deviousness and moral turpitude of
>lawmakers. They will think of something new to tax. Probably
>more than one...

https://www.cato.org/blog/yes-virginia-there-christmas-tree-tax

On 1/17/2024 5:14 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>>>>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>>>>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>>>>
>>>> I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>>> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>>> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>>> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>>> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>>> out how to tax home EV charging
>>
>>
>> Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>>
>> Lou
>
> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
> to road construction and maintenance?

Florida electric power tax is relatively small by comparison
but not zero:

https://smeng.com/taxes-fees-florida-electricity-bill/

Europe generally, and northern Europe moreso, taxes at
higher rates than Florida. I can't find electric power tax
in NL readily, but the Nederlands States General is as
creative as any legislature and as motivated as every other
cash-pressed advanced economy:

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/netherlands/corporate/other-taxes

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/17/2024 6:50 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:28:56 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 12:14:49?PM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland, but some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as they deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my long
>>>>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of Hormuz could
>>>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all that
>>>>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions regarding
>>>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those numbers. I'm
>>>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than strictly
>>>>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was entirely
>>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>>>>>>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and still
>>>>>>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax. With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>>>>> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>>>>> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>>>>> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>>>>> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>>>>> out how to tax home EV charging
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
>>> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
>>> to road construction and maintenance?
>>
>> All taxes come in a big pot and is then distributed. The different budgets are political choices.
>>
>> Lou
>
> I didn't know that. It doesn't work that way in the USA.

The frequently misunderstood Highway Trust Fund still falls
short of its aspirations and is around 20% backfilled from
general revenues.

https://www.pgpf.org/budget-basics/budget-explainer-highway-trust-fund

Not so different from NL or anywhere else in practice.
Public ventures chronically run over budget and beyond
intended revenue sources, so the politics of a solution is
to find a group to target with the lest political downside.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Am 17.01.2024 um 16:00 schrieb AMuzi:
> On 1/17/2024 5:14 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
>>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank
>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but some
>>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as
>>>>>>>>>>>> they deal
>>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my
>>>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>>>> driving days.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of
>>>>>>>>>> Hormuz could
>>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> dramatic:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2022:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last month:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions
>>>>>>>>> regarding
>>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those
>>>>>>>>> numbers. I'm
>>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
>>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than
>>>>>>>>> strictly
>>>>>>>>> economics.
>>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was
>>>>>>>> entirely
>>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
>>>>>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and
>>>>>> still
>>>>>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
>>>>>
>>>>> I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money
>>>>> for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what
>>>>> we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that
>>>>> for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE
>>>>> it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the
>>>>> weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax.
>>>>> With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that
>>>>> EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax
>>>>> is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to
>>>>> pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a
>>>>> new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely
>>>>> based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not
>>>>> much.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
>>>> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
>>>> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
>>>> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
>>>> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
>>>> out how to tax home EV charging
>>>
>>>
>>> Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
>> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
>> to road construction and maintenance?
>
>
> Florida electric power tax is relatively small by comparison but not zero:
>
> https://smeng.com/taxes-fees-florida-electricity-bill/
>
> Europe generally, and northern Europe moreso, taxes at higher rates than
> Florida. I can't find electric power tax in NL readily, but the
> Nederlands States General is as creative as any legislature and as
> motivated as every other cash-pressed advanced economy:
>
> https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/netherlands/corporate/other-taxes

A quick German-langauge search from my side showed me that the
Netherlands have an electricity tax of €0.15 per kWh while Germany have
the EU minimum of €0.025 per kWh (Germany have an "Electricity network
fee" on the order of €0.10 per kWh which goes to the provider of the
electricity distribution network not to the government).

This compares to a gas tax (EU minimum €.32 per l) of €.82 per l in
Netherlands or approx. €.6 in Germany. Comparing typical car
consumption, in NL the electricity tax per 100 miles seems to be about
half of the gas tax per 100 miles if you buy electricity (and you come
scot free when re-charging the car from your roof).

Rolf

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 4:45:11 PM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 17.01.2024 um 16:00 schrieb AMuzi:
> > On 1/17/2024 5:14 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 03:00:42 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 11:31:28?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 02:02:28 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 10:42:21?AM UTC+1, Catrike Ryder
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 23:49:00 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> >>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 5:17:01?AM UTC+1, Frank
> >>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 9:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 5:55 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2024 4:47 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The winter freeze is impacting residents across Chicagoland,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but some
> >>>>>>>>>>>> EV drivers are facing an additional handful of problems as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> they deal
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with long lines at charging stations and reduced battery life.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9AXRW_UjZg
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> pffft. They should get all they signed up for.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm doing perfectly fine. I've got plenty of range even on my
> >>>>>>>>>> long
> >>>>>>>>>> driving days.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I heard a news report that the troubles in the Strait of
> >>>>>>>>>> Hormuz could
> >>>>>>>>>> cause gas prices to surge. I thought "Really? [Yawn]"
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I had not looked at comparisons lately but it is still not all
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> dramatic:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2022:
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Last month:
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.electrichunter.com/ev-news/electric-vs-gasoline-which-cars-are-more-cost-effective
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lots of data but both frankly state there are big assumptions
> >>>>>>>>> regarding
> >>>>>>>>> 'average' and individual cases will be well outside those
> >>>>>>>>> numbers. I'm
> >>>>>>>>> happy that you're happy, but there is probably more personal
> >>>>>>>>> taste/personal expectations/personal behavior involved than
> >>>>>>>>> strictly
> >>>>>>>>> economics.
> >>>>>>>> As I've explained, I didn't buy the EV to save money. It was
> >>>>>>>> entirely
> >>>>>>>> based on environmental conscience.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And in my case driver experience.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>> I wonder when the state and federal governments are going to do
> >>>>>> something about the fact that EV drivers don't pay gas taxes and
> >>>>>> still
> >>>>>> use the streets and roads that those taxes help pay for.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I always say the government will somehow have to collect the money
> >>>>> for building and maintaining the roads. Currently I don't pay what
> >>>>> we call here road tax to stimulate EV use. So other people pay that
> >>>>> for me and I agree that it is unfair. For my last car with an ICE
> >>>>> it was 60 euro/month. The height of the road tax is based on the
> >>>>> weight of the car. The heavier the car the higher the road tax.
> >>>>> With increasing use of EV's this is going to change: the fact that
> >>>>> EV don't pay road tax and the fact that the height of the road tax
> >>>>> is purely based on the weight of the car. If I am correct I have to
> >>>>> pay 25% road tax next year. That is the plan, but we are getting a
> >>>>> new government and it can change. For people that buy an EV purely
> >>>>> based on low running cost this will be a disappointment; for me not
> >>>>> much.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>> In the USA, road taxes are collected as a tax on fuel. I suspect that
> >>>> the federal government is reluctant to do anything about that inequity
> >>>> because they are currently trying to encourage EVs and penalize ICs,
> >>>> but they will have to do something eventually. They can and perhaps
> >>>> do tax public EV chargers, and eventually they might have to figure
> >>>> out how to tax home EV charging
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Huh?? Here there is more tax on electricity than there is on gas IIRC..
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>
> >> There might be some locations in the USA that tax electricity, but I
> >> don't think it's widespread. Do your taxes on electricity contribute
> >> to road construction and maintenance?
> >
> >
> > Florida electric power tax is relatively small by comparison but not zero:
> >
> > https://smeng.com/taxes-fees-florida-electricity-bill/
> >
> > Europe generally, and northern Europe moreso, taxes at higher rates than
> > Florida. I can't find electric power tax in NL readily, but the
> > Nederlands States General is as creative as any legislature and as
> > motivated as every other cash-pressed advanced economy:
> >
> > https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/netherlands/corporate/other-taxes
> A quick German-langauge search from my side showed me that the
> Netherlands have an electricity tax of €0.15 per kWh while Germany have
> the EU minimum of €0.025 per kWh (Germany have an "Electricity network
> fee" on the order of €0.10 per kWh which goes to the provider of the
> electricity distribution network not to the government).
>
> This compares to a gas tax (EU minimum €.32 per l) of €.82 per l in
> Netherlands or approx. €.6 in Germany. Comparing typical car
> consumption, in NL the electricity tax per 100 miles seems to be about
> half of the gas tax per 100 miles if you buy electricity (and you come
> scot free when re-charging the car from your roof).
>
> Rolf

Pricing of a kWh is complicated here, we have Eco tax, network cost (= electricity network fee) and BTW (Value added tax = 21%). I pay €0.38 per kWh. Since I got my EV July last year I averaged 18 kWh/100 km; that is 18 * 0.38 = €6.84/100 km 'fuel' cost. My last ICE averaged 8..5 l/100 km for my kind of driving (lots of shortish distances). Fuel price is currently I think €1,95/l, so the fuel price of that ICE car would be €16,57. I charge at home and I have solar panels that can cover about half of my 'fuel' consumption. The other half is covered by not paying any road tax but that going to change next year.

Lou