On 23.11.2023. 13:04, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op donderdag 23 november 2023 om 01:30:58 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>> On 22.11.2023. 19:46, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>> Op woensdag 22 november 2023 om 17:48:00 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>> On 21.11.2023. 17:38, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>>> Op dinsdag 21 november 2023 om 15:06:07 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>> On 21.11.2023. 12:10, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>>>>>> Op dinsdag 21 november 2023 om 09:32:17 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
>>>>>>>> On 21.11.2023. 3:12, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I thought they were following the salmon...
>>>
>>>>>>>>> There doesn't seem to be much evidence for the exploitation of
>>>>>>>>> salmon, and by that I mean none at all. Not until well after dates
>>>>>>>>> where we might infer Cro Magnon...
>>>
>>>>>>> OK, but salmon exploitation probably doesn't leave much evidence?
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In any case, they seasonally followed the river inland?
>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could be out of sync but as far as I am aware -- what they used
>>>>>>>>> to teach -- is that Neanderthals weren't big on the migration thing.
>>>
>>>>>>> Hn is found at seacoasts + along (big) rivers.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> So called "Moderns," on the other hand, were big on migration.
>>>
>>>>>>> If Hs were big on migration, Hn was?
>>>
>>>>>>>>> We part company on the migration thing.
>>>>>>>>> I see groups splitting off, pushing inland and adapting to that
>>>>>>>>> inland environment. It's how we got Neanderthals and Denisovans
>>>>>>>>> and so called "Moderns" in the first place... and Red Deer people
>>>>>>>>> and everyone else while we were at it.
>>>
>>>>>>> Hs/Hn/Hd splittings are already explained by the long distances.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chimps began as "Aquatic Ape." Their ancestors pushed inland,
>>>>>>>>> radiated out. But whatever point they pushed inland, probably
>>>>>>>>> the horn of Africa, was the destination point for future groups
>>>>>>>>> pushing inland, so their evolution was moderated. However, the
>>>>>>>>> further they got from that point, the less influence on their gene
>>>>>>>>> pool until finally there was no more influx: Chimps!
>>>
>>>>>>> Hominoidea began as aquarboreals (IMO on island archipels between Arabafrica & Eurasia early-Miocene).
>>>>>>> You know my view: late-Miocene HPG in (incipient) Red Sea:
>>>>>>> -c 8 Ma, Gorilla followed the incipient northern Rift->Afar: aferensis-anamensis-boisei etc.
>>>>>>> -c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf of Aden:
>>>>>>> --Pan went->right: E.Afr.coastal forests->southern Rift->Transvaal: africanus->robustus etc.(//Gorilla)
>>>>>>> --Homo->left: S.Asian coasts (no Pliocene Afr.retroviral DNA)->Java...H.erectus: diving"ape": brain++, platycephaly, mid-facial prognathism, ext.nose, supra-orb.torus, pachy-osteo-sclerosis, fossilisation amid shellfish, shellgish engravings, island colonisations etc.etc.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> The famous "Plains Indians" of the Americas were descended
>>>>>>>>> from a coastal population, exploiting marine resources, that
>>>>>>>>> pushed inland... it's a process that never ended.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody ever mentions our dependence on salt trade. It is so obvious,
>>>>>>>> yet nobody cares (to not care about obvious, it looks like it is a
>>>>>>>> habit). People always find the excuse why obvious isn't necessary if
>>>>>>>> what is obvious doesn't fit into their rotten scenario. Everybody,
>>>>>>>> actually, don't give merit to the obvious things, because they think
>>>>>>>> that those happen all by themself, not a big deal. They even don't
>>>>>>>> notice the obvious, because, well, it is so "everyday".
>>>>>>>> We eat salty food. Trust me, this *isn't* a normal condition, and it
>>>>>>>> has its roots *deep* into our past.
>>>>>>>> The fact that we eat salty food *demands* 2 things:
>>>>>>>> - it demands that we evolved on a sea coast (just like our cooling
>>>>>>>> mechanism, sweating, *demands* our evolution on a shore of big bodies of
>>>>>>>> water, nobody cares about this, hm..., this is *very* important for
>>>>>>>> god's sake, this is crucial, how will humans *ever* figure out anything
>>>>>>>> if they are, literally, *blind* to such things)
>>>>>>>> - it demands that we were capable to organize trading routes something
>>>>>>>> like 3 mya, we cannot move inland without having *well* established
>>>>>>>> trading routes.
>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, very relevant indeed IMO (but 3 Ma?? rather 0.3 Ma??).
>>>
>>>>>> We started moving inland with Kenyanthropus platyops. He still
>>>>>> retained flat face, but inland we started to eat terrestrial meat (as
>>>>>> opposed to eating shellfish until then), we started to chop off meat
>>>>>> with our teeth, so midfacial prognathism developed because of that.
>>>
>>>>> No. From my book: "Volgens Louise Leakey is Kenyanthropus platyops (‘Kenya’s platgezichtmens’, ontdekt in meerafzettingen) antropo-centrisch een vroege Homo 3½ miljoen jaar oud, volgens Tim White een door fossilisatie vervormde afarensis, wellicht 2½ miljoen jaar oud."
>>>>> IOW, "Kenyanthr." is probably a Praeanthropus afarensis, like Lucy, a fossil relative of Gorilla:
>>>>> our human ancestors were not in Africa at that time (S-Asian coasts IMO): we have no Pliocene African retroviral DNA (Yohn cs 2005).
>>>
>>>> I don't know anything about this retroviral abracadabra, they found
>>>> Kenyanthropus with stone tools, you don't need better proof. Unless you
>>>> see gorillas and chimps do the same.
>>>> Why would our ancestors be specifically on S-Asian coast, and not on
>>>> any coast?
>
>>> 1) All Pliocene African mammals (e.g. Gorilla & Pan) got infected with certain retroviruses, not no Asian animals, e.g. Homo & Pongo,
>>> IOW, humans ancestors were NOT in Africa at least during most of the Pliocene.
>>> This confirms my view: the late-Miocene Homo-Pan ancestor lived in Red Sea coastal forests,
>>> when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf of Aden (Francesca Mansfields exactly 5.33 Ma Zanclean mega-flood?),
>>> -Pan->Z.Afr.coastal forests (IMO->southern Rift->Transvaal->africanus-robustus-habilis...),
>>> -Homo->S.Asian coastal forests (H.erectus Java early-Pleist.)->Pleist.coastal->riverside dispersal W-Asia-Europe-Africa...
>>> -Gorilla, already 8-7 Ma, followed the northern-Rift->Afar->Kenyanthr.-Lucy-afarensis-anamensis-boisei... often in//S.Afrapiths).
>
>>> 2) Tool use Homo>Pan>Gorilla in coastal forests (mangrove oysters, mussels...?) cf.scenario above.
>
>>> 3) Which "other" coast, Mario??
>>> Pliocene Pan=E.Africa, Homo:S-Asia.
>
>> Ok. First, Red Sea was flooded numerous times between 25 and 5 Ma:
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012825222001994#s0070
>
> Red sea evaporites: Formation, creep and dissolution
> Joshua E Smith & J Carlos Santamarina 2022
> Earth-Science Reviews 232, 104115
> doi org/10.1016/j.earscirev.2022.104115 open access
>
> Evaporite deposition & sea-floor spreading are 2 salient processes in the geol.history of the Red Sea.
> We piece together the available evidence about rift-evolution & evaporite-fm:
> we constrain the deposition history, analyze creep, and advance a plausible explanation for the preservation of these soluble fms.
> At the end of evaporite deposition, before the Ind.Ocean flooded the Red Sea through the Bab al-Mandab's strait (5.33 Ma?? --mv), the salt thickness must have exceeded ~1.5 x the current thickness.
> Reported plate rotation, rift rates & a salt suture zone in the C-Red Sea allow us to estimate an effective large-scale viscosity of 1018 Pa·s.
> Thinned salt along the S-Red Sea flows up to 5 mm/yr, creep cannot keep up with sea-floor spreading, oceanic crust remains exposed.
> Vast alluvial fans & carbonate platforms cause salt withdrawal;
> corresponding sea-floor settlement rates can exceed ~10 mm/yr, and overtake coral reef production.
> Salt dissolution leaves behind a residual sediment cap made of insoluble minerals that gradually retards further dissolution: self-armoring.
> New exper.evidence & the numerical solution of diffusion with a moving boundary show:
> - self-armoring by selective dissolution controls early evaporite dissolution,
> - background sedimentation dominates sediment accumulation over long time scales.
> Armoring-delayed evaporite dissolution prevents the fm of a vast regional brine pool.

Ok, what they are saying here. 5.33 Ma this process stopped because
link opened to Indian Ocean. But, before that this was closed sea, this
is why you have those evaporates. Furthermore, 5.33 Ma was the last time
this closed sea opened, but before that it opened several times. In the
past it used to open on the north side, lately it used to open on the
south side, and it didn't close again after 5.33 Ma.
What this connection to Messinian Salinity Crisis? Because
Mediterranean closed, the sea levels raised around the world, so thus
sea from Indian Ocean managed to overflow into Red Sea. This stream
probably widened, so it didn't close later, when sea levels lowered again.

>> Second, only humans use stone tools the way Lomekwi stone tools were used.
>> Oh, I knew that we share more diseases with orangutan, although we
>> share more genes with chimps and gorillas. This means that chimps and
>> gorillas are our closest living relatives, while we spatially evolved on
>> a place where orangutans evolved. This means, in Euroasia.
>> Pan didn't live on a coast at the time we were bipedal, and we were
>> bipedal for 12 mya.
>
> Pan was coastal until 4 or 3 Ma (then ->S-Rift->Transvaal: africanus-robustus-habilis...),
> possibly, they used stones to open mangrove oysters etc.
> Early-Miocene Hominoida were already BP! Google "aquarboreal"!
>
> Did, Homo in S.Asia begin regular diving only early-Pleist.?
>
> Pongids & hominids split 15-14 Ma = Mesopotamian seaway closure.
> Eur.dryopiths, incl.Danuvius etc., died out,
> only HPG in the (then incipient) Red Sea survived late-Miocene:
> -Gorilla followed the N-Rift->Afar->Lucy-afarensis-boisei etc.
> -When the Red Sea opened into the Gulf of Aden (5.33 Ma?):
> -- Pan went right->E.Afr.coast->S-Rift->Transvaal: africanus->robustus etc.
> -- Homo went left->S.Asia Plioceen->Java: H.erectus etc.
>
> The rest of what you write is nonsense, Mario:

What you are writing is nonsense. You are forcibly making apes
bipedal. Do you know what you are saying, that our pelvis which is
completely unique, changed like a yo-yo, now it is long, then it is
short, and so on, and so on, whichever way you personally like it.
Something that happens once ever, in your scenario has to happen
whenever you want it. This is completely crazy. So, stick (jesus,
another one of those English words that has thousand meanings, :) ) to
the facts, not to your dreams.

>> Danuvius is in Europe, long away from chimps. Chimps
>> and gorillas lived where they are living today, in forests. So, we,
>> actually, weren't in contact. Our last contact with forest species was
>> with orangutan. We, actually, burned off forest species, and ate them
>> burned. Only, we couldn't burn areas with huge precipitation, this is
>> why today's apes survived in rain forests.
>> So, these are the facts, and all this was in Miocene, not in Pliocene.
>> Try do compile scenario using facts. And facts are that we are bipedal
>> for 12 My. At least.