Favorite mozart opera recordings update:

Sorted out: Klemperer's Cosi (EMI/Warner) and also Figaro (EMI/Warner) for the singing (say Söderstrom)
In reevaluation: Iván Fischer's Magic Flute (not sure who released it, DVD), Fricsay's DG (DG), Krips's Serail (EMI/Warner), Suitner's nozze (Berlin Classics)

Serail: Beecham (EMI)
Figaro: Fricsay (DG)
DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner)
Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Klemperer (EMI/Warner, although I don't like Janowitz and Crass here)

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2023 um 20:03:34 UTC+1:
> Favorite mozart opera recordings update:
>
> Sorted out: Klemperer's Cosi (EMI/Warner) and also Figaro (EMI/Warner) for the singing (say Söderstrom)
> In reevaluation: Iván Fischer's Magic Flute (not sure who released it, DVD), Fricsay's DG (DG), Krips's Serail (EMI/Warner), Suitner's nozze (Berlin Classics)

*Don't need Fricsay's DG as much of the singing is bad... even from Seefried...

>
> Serail: Beecham (EMI)
> Figaro: Fricsay (DG)

*add Klemperer's Figaro (need it for Grist I think...)

> DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
> Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner)
> Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Klemperer (EMI/Warner, although I don't like Janowitz and Crass here)

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2023 um 20:24:17 UTC+1:
> Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2023 um 20:03:34 UTC+1:
> > Favorite mozart opera recordings update:
> >
> > Sorted out: Klemperer's Cosi (EMI/Warner) and also Figaro (EMI/Warner) for the singing (say Söderstrom)
> > In reevaluation: Iván Fischer's Magic Flute (not sure who released it, DVD), Fricsay's DG (DG), Krips's Serail (EMI/Warner), Suitner's nozze (Berlin Classics)
> *Don't need Fricsay's DG as much of the singing is bad... even from Seefried...

**Screw Suitner's nozze and also Krips's serail mainly because of Rothenberger... I can't listen to her.

> >
> > Serail: Beecham (EMI)
> > Figaro: Fricsay (DG)
> *add Klemperer's Figaro (need it for Grist I think...)
> > DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
> > Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner)
> > Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Klemperer (EMI/Warner, although I don't like Janowitz and Crass here)

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2023 um 20:35:28 UTC+1:
> Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2023 um 20:24:17 UTC+1:
> > Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 5. Dezember 2023 um 20:03:34 UTC+1:
> > > Favorite mozart opera recordings update:
> > >
> > > Sorted out: Klemperer's Cosi (EMI/Warner) and also Figaro (EMI/Warner) for the singing (say Söderstrom)
> > > In reevaluation: Iván Fischer's Magic Flute (not sure who released it, DVD), Fricsay's DG (DG), Krips's Serail (EMI/Warner), Suitner's nozze (Berlin Classics)
> > *Don't need Fricsay's DG as much of the singing is bad... even from Seefried...
> **Screw Suitner's nozze and also Krips's serail mainly because of Rothenberger... I can't listen to her.

Screw Iván Fischer's Zauberflöte for most of the women... so ya....

I'll reevaluate Klemperer's cosi and figaro for one more time and then I'm done I think... and maybe I'll also compare Berger's Zerlina (Furtwängler) to Streich's (Mitropoulos) and to Freni's (Klemperer).

> > >
> > > Serail: Beecham (EMI)
> > > Figaro: Fricsay (DG)
> > *add Klemperer's Figaro (need it for Grist I think...)
> > > DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
> > > Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner)
> > > Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Klemperer (EMI/Warner, although I don't like Janowitz and Crass here)

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 11:11:13 AM UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> Meanwhile BSB has moved on from fart jokes about Savall to prick-and-balls jokes about Makela. I anticipate wee-wee jokes about some other promising young conductor in the fulness of time.
>

>
I don't follow this squeaky guy's videos. Life is too short.
However, he clearly has found that reciting the contents of big cd boxes doesn't get him more than 1500 views on youtube, wihich is about what you get for lacing your sneakers on camera (less probably).
So he's been going negative on music and conductors more and more, because that's what people like.
The internet is a hate machine.

Scriabin Etudes op. 42,
every recording I found.

Fav Mozart opera recordings update:

Serail: ?Maybe Jochum (DG) and Krips (EMI/Warner) (Wunderlich is quite good.... and Rothenberger is not too bad...)
Figaro: Fricsay (DG), Klemperer (EMI/Warner), ?Maybe Suitner (Berlin Classics)
DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner), Klemperer (Emi/Warner)
Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Klemperer (EMI/Warner), ?Maybe Böhm (DG)

In article <cf3679b9-f42f-44ec-a390-28a036b30a5fn@googlegroups.com>,
Oscar <oscaredwardwilliamson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Sounds better than ever.

Congratulations on a purely classical music-based troll. It almost
brings a tear to my eye....

Final favorite Mozart opera (*the operas I know) recordings update:

Serail: Jochum (DG; mainly for Wunderlich), Krips (EMI/Warner)
nozze: Fricsay (DG), Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Suitner (Berlin Classics)
DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner), Klemperer (EMI/Warner)
Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (DG; mainly for Wunderlich), Klemperer (EMI/Warner)

Happy Chanukka!

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 7. Dezember 2023 um 15:39:59 UTC+1:
> Final favorite Mozart opera (*the operas I know) recordings update:

*Mozart operas I know well/better than other Mozart operas

>
> Serail: Jochum (DG; mainly for Wunderlich), Krips (EMI/Warner)
> nozze: Fricsay (DG), Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Suitner (Berlin Classics)
> DG: Klemperer (EMI/Warner), Krips (Decca), Mitropoulos (Sony)
> Cosi: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (EMI/Warner), Klemperer (EMI/Warner)
> Zauberflöte: Böhm (Decca), Böhm (DG; mainly for Wunderlich), Klemperer (EMI/Warner)
>
> Happy Chanukka!

I haven't listened to much classical for quite a while. Gloomy weather, awful world situation, useless COP28.....

This is a time for jazz and blues.

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 5:00:09 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> I haven't listened to much classical for quite a while. Gloomy weather, awful world situation, useless COP28.....
>
> This is a time for jazz and blues.

Cheer up, Andy; we can't do anything about it outside of our private circle..
Bad mood is bad for the environment.

On Thursday 7 December 2023 at 16:09:51 UTC, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 5:00:09 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> > I haven't listened to much classical for quite a while. Gloomy weather, awful world situation, useless COP28.....
> >
> > This is a time for jazz and blues.
> Cheer up, Andy; we can't do anything about it outside of our private circle.
> Bad mood is bad for the environment.

I don't mind being in a bad mood - I just swear a lot and get over it.

Women sulk and go for long walks........

On 12/7/2023 11:00 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> I haven't listened to much classical for quite a while. Gloomy weather, awful world situation, useless COP28.....
>
> This is a time for jazz and blues.

When I feel like that I also avoid classical and listen to my favorite pop/rock. Pretenders, Zeppelin, Floyd, Blondie, Bowie, Fleetwood Mac, Neil Young, Prince, Queen, Steely Dan, Talking Heads, Velvet Underground, X and especially Rickie Lee Jones. Probably forgot some. Kind of overdosed on the Beatles.

On Thursday 7 December 2023 at 19:21:30 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/7/2023 11:00 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > I haven't listened to much classical for quite a while. Gloomy weather, awful world situation, useless COP28.....
> >
> > This is a time for jazz and blues.
> When I feel like that I also avoid classical and listen to my favorite pop/rock. Pretenders, Zeppelin, Floyd, Blondie, Bowie, Fleetwood Mac, Neil Young, Prince, Queen, Steely Dan, Talking Heads, Velvet Underground, X and especially Rickie Lee Jones. Probably forgot some. Kind of overdosed on the Beatles.

Yeah... with you there. I've been listening to a lot of interviews with Donald Fagen. Fascinating stuff. I'm a huge Fagen fan, wonderful songwriter.

A good friend, Jeff Young (kbds, voc), played with Steely Dan for a while and told me many stories.

On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 1:00:09 AM UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> Another senior moment grammatically: it's the conductors who flourished sixty years ago whose recordings tend to get reissued in big boxes, not the Robin Ticciatis or the John Wilsons or the Klaus Makelas.
>
I was fully prepared to accept that Squinty Squeak flourished sixty years ago.
Reciting cd box booklets online in a squeaky voice is not my idea of flourishing.

On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 5:08:11 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

> Whether or not DH flourished or not, doesn't hide the fact that with the conductors of the past, we are the benificiaries of hindsight, and hence the reason why big boxes of Ormandy sell. For the Philly alone their strings were hardly matched even by today, as well as Ormandy being a far greater maestro than lazy minds want to accept.

Why so angry? No-one is telling you you are obliged to listen to Makela, rather than to what you're used to.

In my view (otherwise irrelevant) this 'benefit of hindsight' is largely alien to the musical art form. Music was made to be performed in the moment, by performers of the moment and as an audience we were part of the moment. That's the excitement of performance.
The musical industry had created this idea that you don't have to schlepp your body to the concert hall, you can listen to music while opening the fridge to get a brewski. The gigantic discography of Ormandy was recorded for just that purpose. The big labels each had their big guy, Ormandy, Szell, Karajan, Bernstein who recorded the entire commercially viable repertoire and they hyped said conductors as if they were these genius titans, not just very busy Kapellmeisters. So Szell was hyped as a tyrant stickler for detail, Ormandy had his magic strings (an idea strikingly similar to washing detergent slogans) and Karajan was this guy who conducted with his eyes hypnotically shut. Some people still believe these myths from ca 1960 and they should, because somebody needs to buy those mega boxes, otherwise the planet won't perish in time. We need more waste.
To be honest I find Ormandy / Philly unlistenable, partly because that whole idea of massively homogenised strings is repellent, in real life an orchestra doesn't sound that way, it's like you're listening through a hearing aid. It's a 1950 sound ideal, these recordings were made for an audience that had no idea what an actual orchestra sounds like.
In what numbers these Ormandy boxes sell, is one of the many secrets of the industry. However, the classical music business has gotten into a death spiral with these massive productions especially produced for old people who want to have another reiteration of the recordings they already have had for decades. The notion that a performer from a previous generation is automatically better than some of today's performers just doesn't make any sense. Orchestras as a whole are generally much better today than orchestras in the fifties - I won't even talk about before. They can play more stuff, and they play it better, because they are better educated, it's a more competitive world and they're generally in better physical shape.
I have no idea how good or bad Makela is, I haven't heard or seen him. First rank orchestras seem very eager to have him, which can either mean he's really good, or he's really easy to work with, I don't know.

On Friday 8 December 2023 at 10:18:19 UTC, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

> - I won't even talk about before. They can play more stuff, and they play it better, because they are better educated, it's a more competitive world and they're generally in better physical shape.
> Post war orchestras had problems for sure, but I am not sure your statement holds true for the 70s 80s. In certain respects maybe. The Czech PO once had a truly distinctive sound, apparent even in many recordings. Is that true today?
> Ray Hall, Taree

At the Proms around 10 years ago I heard the Czech PO and the Leipzig Gewandehaus orchestras on successive nights. The Leipzig was smooth and rather bland. The CPO was thrilling. The brass was more raw, the winds more reedy. And they had enthusiasm and attack. It's partly style of playing, but I wonder how much the psychology of a country comes into it. The Czechs are passionate and form close teams, as they did when resisting the Soviets for so long.

In article <26ba4f7c-f78c-4e9a-a13a-f8c852b82e80n@googlegroups.com>,
raymond....@gmail.com <raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have no need for anything by newer conductors unless they are
>championing newer music, instead of the usual 'done before 100s
>of times' pot boiler stuff.

I'm especially interested in new music -- and in newer approaches
to old music too. What does not interest me much is old approaches
to old music.
>A downloaded product is no more the excitement of performance than
>a CD.

It's simply more convenient to hear, especially on a whim....

>But time does give the opportunity for a more thorough assessment
>of a recorded product.

That is true, but tastes also change.

I've said this before, but I wanted the interpretive styles to
change at the time.... (Enough with reducing things to a "main
line" already!)

>Society has degenerated also, and to say it hasn't is simply not
>being realistic.

Performers today are performing for people today. The typical
listener today has a MUCH more broad experience of music, and might
not even unquestionably accept the superiority of all things
Western....

Herman wrote:
>>Orchestras as a whole are generally much better today than
>>orchestras in the fifties
>Post war orchestras had problems for sure, but I am not sure your
>statement holds true for the 70s 80s. In certain respects maybe. The
>Czech PO once had a truly distinctive sound, apparent even in many
>recordings. Is that true today?

You might be right about "distinctive sound of orchestras as a
whole" being more a thing then. I'm not sure why I want that though?
Today's individual musicians are certainly better technically. Like
Herman, I'm not into the conductor cult at all....

Guys... I just don't like Beethoven... I prefer Bach, Schubert, Brahms - and ofc Mozart - over him by far...

very beautiful moments... but... too much wrong with it imo...

Fauré, B minor Nocturne nr 9 op 97
by various performers.

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 12:07:25 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> Fauré, B minor Nocturne nr 9 op 97
> by various performers.

Any recommendations,
in favor or against?

Thx

On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 8:04:52 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> Jumping the gun by a couple of days, but here's a fresh thread.
>
> Listening to Dvorak String Quartets on YouTube as I
> do some work. Very nice.
>
> I haven't burned out on Dvorak like I have on Chopin -
> haven't listened to Chopin for almost a year and the
> piano competitions just burn me out even faster.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrIRbytwpAMkMtLNcS1GxQQD01mK9dCdN

Unmatched. Also includes Cypresses.

Cheers

On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 2:25:56 AM UTC-8, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 4:38:23 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 10:21:42 AM UTC-8, JohnGavin wrote:
> > >
> > > Prokofiev - “War Sonatas” 6, 7, 8 Steven Osborne
> > >
> > > Impossible to praise this highly enough. Steven
> > > Osborne never makes a bad recording. Particularly
> > > outstanding is his sense of sound, color, and expert
> > > use of the sustain pedal, with which he creates beautiful
> > > effects. His Prokofiev is vibrant and exciting without being
> > > overly steely in sound. Highly recommended, and now
> > > streaming along with all of his other Hyperion recordings.
> > Ridiculous! You really need new ears.
> >
> > If one needs or wants a non-Russian
> > Prokofiev Sonata cycle, Matti Raekallio
> > is the top recommendation.
>
> I owned Raekallio’s Prokofiev set and did not
> keep it for long. I disliked his sound which had
> no resonance. His prime approach seemed to
> me to be fast tempos.

Isn't this exactly how La Wang promotes herself?

> I then acquired Ovchinnikov’s set which was much
> more to my liking. Still, Osborne is tops for me.

Prokofiev sonata connoisseurs in the old country
hold Nikolai Petrov's cycle in very high regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O4cOFqpOPc

or

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzCRjntiyKT15pL54AYXlBhQnilEfXtlw

Cheers

On Thu, 07 Dec 2023 22:53:34 -0800, Herman wrote:

> On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 5:08:11?AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Whether or not DH flourished or not, doesn't hide the fact that with the conductors of the past, we are the benificiaries of hindsight, and hence the reason why big boxes of Ormandy sell. For the Philly alone their strings were hardly matched even by today, as well as Ormandy being a far greater maestro than lazy minds want to accept.
>
> Why so angry? No-one is telling you you are obliged to listen to Makela, rather than to what you're used to.
>
> In my view (otherwise irrelevant) this 'benefit of hindsight' is largely alien to the musical art form. Music was made to be performed in the moment, by performers of the moment and as an audience we were part of the moment. That's the excitement of performance.

So you reject recorded music in general? All
music must be live?

> The musical industry had created this idea that you don't have to schlepp your body to the concert hall, you can listen to music while opening the fridge to get a brewski. The gigantic discography of Ormandy was recorded for just that purpose. The big labels each had their big guy, Ormandy, Szell, Karajan, Bernstein who recorded the entire commercially viable repertoire and they hyped said conductors as if they were these genius titans, not just very busy Kapellmeisters. So Szell was hyped as a tyrant stickler for detail, Ormandy had his magic strings (an idea strikingly similar to washing detergent slogans) and Karajan was this guy who conducted with his eyes hypnotically shut. Some people still believe these myths from ca 1960 and they should, because somebody needs to buy those mega boxes, otherwise the planet won't perish in time. We need more waste.

CDs aren't wasteful, going to live concerts have
a "larger carbon footprint" than buying CDs.
Truly wasteful and planet destroying is the
practice of going to restaurants and the drinking
of alcohol.

Picket the restaurants: "stop drinking alcohol,
you're killing the planet! Eat simple food ONLY!"

First, stop that profligacy, and then we start talk
about "abolishing CDs to save the planet".

> To be honest I find Ormandy / Philly unlistenable, partly because that whole idea of massively homogenised strings is repellent, in real life an orchestra doesn't sound that way, it's like you're listening through a hearing aid. It's a 1950 sound ideal, these recordings were made for an audience that had no idea what an actual orchestra sounds like.

I hear you: there are no such thing as boring record
companies, it's the concept of recorded music that offends.

> In what numbers these Ormandy boxes sell, is one of the many secrets of the industry. However, the classical music business has gotten into a death spiral with these massive productions

It used to be home taping that destroyed the music industry,
now it's classical CD box sets! "Sorry, we can't pay you
your royalties you're owed - it ended up in Ormandy's Mono box!"

> especially produced for old people who want to have another reiteration of the recordings they already have had for decades.

I understand that nearly all the CDs in Ormandy's mono set is
new to the CD format. Or are you claiming the only people
in the world who want a mono CD are people who already own
the mono LP original? Or are all mono recordings condemned
because mono is technologically inferior to stereo?

> The notion that a performer from a previous generation is automatically better than some of today's performers just doesn't

That's your notion. Are you offended that large,
relatively cheap CD box sets are for sale at all,
when instead only new music by new musicians should
be listened to?

> make any sense. Orchestras as a whole are generally much better today than orchestras in the fifties - I won't even talk about before. They can play more stuff, and they play it better, because they are better educated, it's a more competitive world and they're generally in better physical shape.

Physically fit = better musician! Move on, ya old fogeys,
the footballers are here to save the day! A&R needs to
troll the gym to stay relevant!

> I have no idea how good or bad Makela is, I haven't heard or seen him. First rank orchestras seem very eager to have him, which can either mean he's really good, or he's really easy to work with, I don't know.