In article <0b7f0f1e-43b0-4b68-8e74-5ef8b04fb81en@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast,
>other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.

It does feel like we're much more inside Beethoven's head going so
slowly.... Whether that's good or bad, I suppose, is one of those
"mood" things. :-)

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:05:34 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
>
> I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.

I'd say the composer's indications are a pretty good reason.
More importantly the fanfare motiv is a reason to play it at a fair clip, because that's how fanfares go - unless you're Mahler.

It’s Pollini ca 1977 DG for me. Unbroken driven momentum is the spirit of this piece IMO.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:24:12 PM UTC, JohnGavin wrote:
> It’s Pollini ca 1977 DG for me. Unbroken driven momentum is the spirit of this piece IMO.

I guess I’m not very keen on unbroken driven momentum - I mean, it’s not what I’m looking for in music right now. So I’m quite pleased to find a performance which is totally undriven.

Afanassiev’s rubato is a weakness - it seems intrusive and pointless to me.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 8:19:09 PM UTC, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:05:34 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.
> I'd say the composer's indications are a pretty good reason.
> More importantly the fanfare motiv is a reason to play it at a fair clip, because that's how fanfares go - unless you're Mahler.

Yes a Mahlerian fanfare! I guess it’s only right that a pianist thinks about the composer’s tempo suggestions, even if he ultimately rejects them.

In article <dd47687b-97ae-4d17-ac04-c64ddea7c68cn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>Afanassiev's rubato is a weakness - it seems intrusive and pointless
>to me.

It seems to me he is trying to articulate some process of creation
for the piece, the struggle behind the notes....

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 10:21:26 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <dd47687b-97ae-4d17...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Afanassiev's rubato is a weakness - it seems intrusive and pointless
> >to me.
> It seems to me he is trying to articulate some process of creation
> for the piece, the struggle behind the notes....

You mean he wants us to never forget that these sounds are being produced by the labour of a human being at a piano? The rubato like a Brechtian thing, to stop us getting absorbed in the music.

In article <95f943fe-0cb3-4eb2-80e0-1b4dd62bd64bn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>You mean he wants us to never forget that these sounds are being
>produced by the labour of a human being at a piano?

I believe it is the composer's labor that he is evoking....

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 11:42:52 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <95f943fe-0cb3-4eb2...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >You mean he wants us to never forget that these sounds are being
> >produced by the labour of a human being at a piano?
> I believe it is the composer's labor that he is evoking....

IMO you don't need big rubato for that.
It's in Beethoven's notes, the hesitating between Bflat and B natural for instance.

In article <59df98b9-bf4e-46fd-afe0-8c1b40bf7eedn@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>IMO you don't need big rubato for that.

Heh well, nothing about the performance is necessary....

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 11:56:06 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <59df98b9-bf4e-46fd...@googlegroups.com>,
> Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >IMO you don't need big rubato for that.
> Heh well, nothing about the performance is necessary....

I know...

So this is what it looks like when a bunch of donkeys - thinking they know anything about music - talk about Beethoven and Afanassiev ;D

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 21:19:09 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:05:34 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.
> I'd say the composer's indications are a pretty good reason.

So according to you every interpretation should follow Beethoven's tempo suggestions closely? Leibowitz-style? Do you think Beethoven had this in mind? ;)

> More importantly the fanfare motiv is a reason to play it at a fair clip, because that's how fanfares go - unless you're Mahler.

Usually fanfares don't make somersaults though...

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 08:56:14 UTC+1:
> Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 21:19:09 UTC+1:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:05:34 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.
> > I'd say the composer's indications are a pretty good reason.
> So according to you every interpretation should follow Beethoven's tempo suggestions closely? Leibowitz-style? Do you think Beethoven had this in mind? ;)
> > More importantly the fanfare motiv is a reason to play it at a fair clip, because that's how fanfares go - unless you're Mahler.
> Usually fanfares don't make somersaults though...

See "Baroque Imperial Fanfares" -- they play it quite slowly; grandeur etc.; compare it to how Beethoven's Hammerklavier opening sounds when taken at Beethoven's tempo suggestion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l035zavkLGM

Beethoven just wants to break through (*his tempo suggestion); it is different from how fanfares of that time sounded - at least from what I heard.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 10:42:52 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <95f943fe-0cb3-4eb2...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >You mean he wants us to never forget that these sounds are being
> >produced by the labour of a human being at a piano?
> I believe it is the composer's labor that he is evoking....

Whatever Afanassiev's intention, I'd argue that his effect is analogous to Brechtian irony. That's to say, when I hear the first movement I don't feel that pianist "disappears" and the music doesn't sound to me like it's like a living organism motivated from within. Instead, I am all the time conscious of its production, it's creation at the piano. And that makes me listen more critically - I don't get so involved with the unfolding of the music that lose my self.

Here's the Schreckensfanfare -- it's not that fast!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MGafs-gZg0&ab_channel=ChristopherBradford

On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 1:24:17 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Here's the Schreckensfanfare -- it's not that fast!
>
That depends on which instrument group you're listening to. In those first bars of the 9th finale there are lots of fast notes comparable to what happens in the first bars of the Hammerklavier. However, in the weird clip you linked, these upper winds are drowned out by the horns that, indeed, are on one chord through three bars.

Herman schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 13:54:26 UTC+1:
> On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 1:24:17 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > Here's the Schreckensfanfare -- it's not that fast!
> >
> That depends on which instrument group you're listening to. In those first bars of the 9th finale there are lots of fast notes comparable to what happens in the first bars of the Hammerklavier. However, in the weird clip you linked, these upper winds are drowned out by the horns that, indeed, are on one chord through three bars.

Listen to it: It's not that fast (this is not dependant on the instrument group; also: are you implying that Howie didn't listen correctly, and that it is actually fast? What on earth have you been smoking lol).

You were talking shit and got caught ;D

Herman's argument was: to play it fast, as fanfares are played fast -- yet he didn't notice, that fanfares were very likely usually never played as fast as Beethoven intended the opening of the Hammerklavier to be played.

So 1) Fanfares are not always played fast. Depending ofc on what one understands as fast.
and 2) more importantly: it doesn't seem as if it was Beethoven's intention to play it the speed with which fanfares were "usually" played (which was Herman's point), but much faster.

Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 21:19:09 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:05:34 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.
> I'd say the composer's indications are a pretty good reason.
> More importantly the fanfare motiv is a reason to play it at a fair clip, because that's how fanfares go - unless you're Mahler.

On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 1:24:17 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Here's the Schreckensfanfare -- it's not that fast!
>
It's actually a fun comparison, the two opening passages really mirror each other.
The long sustained chords in the horns, in the Ninth's finale are mirrored in the Hammerklavier by the Bflat note, the first note you hear. Most pianists take this one by quickly crossing their right hand over the left; even though that's not how it's written by LvB.
The fanfare chords in the Hammerklavier are mirrored by all the busy stuff in the clarinets, oboes and flutes in the symphony.
It's really quite hectic music, not slow at all.
In this horrendous electronic version you linked it sounds 'slow' because everything is drowned out by the horns and the crazy drumroll.

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 14:32:56 UTC+1:
> Herman's argument was: to play it fast, as fanfares are played fast -- yet he didn't notice, that fanfares were very likely usually never played as fast as Beethoven intended the opening of the Hammerklavier to be played.
>
> So 1) Fanfares are not always played fast. Depending ofc on what one understands as fast.
> and 2) more importantly: it doesn't seem as if it was Beethoven's intention to play it the speed with which fanfares were "usually" played (which was Herman's point), but much faster.

And what is even more important is that Beethoven - even though he gave tempo suggestions - would not have made them a rule (I think it is even recorded that he played his pieces differently at different occasions?), as Herman intended to.

> Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2023 um 21:19:09 UTC+1:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 9:05:34 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder if there's any reason to play the first movement it fast, other than Beethoven's tempo suggestions.
> > I'd say the composer's indications are a pretty good reason.
> > More importantly the fanfare motiv is a reason to play it at a fair clip, because that's how fanfares go - unless you're Mahler.

Herman schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 14:35:24 UTC+1:
> On Wednesday, December 13, 2023 at 1:24:17 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > Here's the Schreckensfanfare -- it's not that fast!
> >
> It's actually a fun comparison, the two opening passages really mirror each other.
> The long sustained chords in the horns, in the Ninth's finale are mirrored in the Hammerklavier by the Bflat note, the first note you hear. Most pianists take this one by quickly crossing their right hand over the left; even though that's not how it's written by LvB.
> The fanfare chords in the Hammerklavier are mirrored by all the busy stuff in the clarinets, oboes and flutes in the symphony.
> It's really quite hectic music, not slow at all.

Compared to the opening of Hammerklavier at Beethoven's metronome marking it is actually quite slow, and very tame. What's wrong with you?

Sonata sped up to 138:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edEdJiB17Dk

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MGafs-gZg0&ab_channel=ChristopherBradford

Mandryka schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 13:18:59 UTC+1:
> On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 10:42:52 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <95f943fe-0cb3-4eb2...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >You mean he wants us to never forget that these sounds are being
> > >produced by the labour of a human being at a piano?
> > I believe it is the composer's labor that he is evoking....
> Whatever Afanassiev's intention, I'd argue that his effect is analogous to Brechtian irony.

I certainly view it similarly. It's not good. But the reason is not: "Because he doesn't follow Beethoven's metronome markings" or because "fanfares are played faster". There are enough counterexamples (examples of not following his markings and making great music, and examples of following his markings and being dull).

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 14:54:42 UTC+1:
> Mandryka schrieb am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 13:18:59 UTC+1:
> > On Tuesday, December 12, 2023 at 10:42:52 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > In article <95f943fe-0cb3-4eb2...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >You mean he wants us to never forget that these sounds are being
> > > >produced by the labour of a human being at a piano?
> > > I believe it is the composer's labor that he is evoking....
> > Whatever Afanassiev's intention, I'd argue that his effect is analogous to Brechtian irony.
> I certainly view it similarly. It's not good. But the reason is not: "Because he doesn't follow Beethoven's metronome markings" or because "fanfares are played faster". There are enough counterexamples (examples of not following his markings and making great music, and examples of following his markings and being dull).

Yet in Afanassiev's defense, he gets some sounds out of it, that I have not heard accentuated this way before, his focus is different, and at least it gives you something to think about, or moments you might take inspiration from for your own interpretation -- As said, I don't like his approach at all, but some moments are really good. Compare it with Honeck's approach to Beethoven Symphonies... couldn't get any duller... A mix between Celibidache's and Mengelberg's Beethoven would be sth insanely cool imo.