xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
https://xkcd.com/2846/

Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
year round.

Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

Lynn

On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:

> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
> https://xkcd.com/2846/

There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
when to change their clocks.

There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.

> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
> year round.
>
> Explained at:
> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>
> Lynn

Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
abandoned worldwide.

Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
etc.

Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
Time were found to be insignificant.

<https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>

On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>    https://xkcd.com/2846/
>
> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
> year round.
>
Each year. ;)

> Explained at:
>    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>
> Lynn

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <uhc45k$12fst$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>    https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>
>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
>> year round.
>>
>Each year. ;)
>
>> Explained at:
>>    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 10/25/2023 3:35 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <uhc45k$12fst$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>    https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>
>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
>>> year round.
>>>
>> Each year. ;)
>>
>>> Explained at:
>>>    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>
>>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo

Hee hee hee.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:06:15 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>
>Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
>year round.
>
>Explained at:
> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice

Every year in the Fall, when we go off DST, we are assaulted by
articles explaining why that is a Very Bad Idea.

Every year in the Spring (well, late Winter, actually) we go onto DST,
we are assaulted by articles explaining why that is a Very Bad Idea.

In both cases, BTW, auto accidents involving small children trying to
get to school go up for a few days as the drivers adjust to the
changed conditions. And, in the Spring, struggle to keep awake.

One thing is clear: in the USA, our State Legislature could, if it
wanted keep us off DST year-round (a procedure for doing this legally
exists) -- but our State Legislature instead passes pointless laws
attempting to keep us on DST year round (something for which no
procedure to do this legally exists). That is, they go immediately for
the ineffective choice that cannot possibly work.

Myself, I wonder if it is really a /good/ thing to have our
Presidential/Congressional political campaigns occurring during DST, a
time when everyone is desperately pretending that 12 Noon is really 1
PM and so clearly living in a fantasy world. That we basically choose
our government while living in an alternate reality might explain a
few things.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>
>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>
>There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>when to change their clocks.
>
>There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>
>
>
>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
>> year round.
>>
>> Explained at:
>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>
>> Lynn
>
>Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>abandoned worldwide.
>
>Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>etc.
>
> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
> Time were found to be insignificant.
>
>
><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>

That, IIRC, wasn't the point.

The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
working longer because the Sun was up. Keep in mind, there was a war
on and production needed to be raised. Considerably. Despite the
Selective Service grabbing farmers and workers, leaving fewer to do
the work, and putting them in the Army.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>
>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>
>>There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>when to change their clocks.
>>
>>There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
>forward=20
>>> year round.
>>>=20
>>> Explained at:
>>> =
>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>=20
>>> Lynn
>>
>>Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>abandoned worldwide.
>>
>>Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>etc.
>>
>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>
>> =20
>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
>gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>
>That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>
>The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>working longer because the Sun was up.

Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
of the sun.

There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
of which hour it starts at.

In article <YXw_M.115476$tnmf.81112@fx09.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>
>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>
>>>There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>>when to change their clocks.
>>>
>>>There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
>>forward=20
>>>> year round.
>>>>=20
>>>> Explained at:
>>>> =
>>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>=20
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>>Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>>abandoned worldwide.
>>>
>>>Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>>etc.
>>>
>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>
>>> =20
>>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
>>gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>>
>>That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>
>>The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>working longer because the Sun was up.
>
>Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
>of the sun.
>
>There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>of which hour it starts at.

As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
getting them all dusty.

The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.

But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
he undertook to find out.

He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
regular.

But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
back to their old habits.

As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 10/26/2023 12:28 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <YXw_M.115476$tnmf.81112@fx09.iad>,
> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>
>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>
>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>
>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
>>> forward=20
>>>>> year round.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>> =
>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>
>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
>>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>>>
>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>
>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>
>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
>> of the sun.
>>
>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>> of which hour it starts at.
>
>
> As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
> acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
> working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
> had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
> work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
> he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
> getting them all dusty.
>
> The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
> pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
> farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
> the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
> fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
> wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.
>
> But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
> want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
> he undertook to find out.
>
> He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
> reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
> day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
> them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
> regular.
>
> But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
> of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
> late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
> back to their old habits.
>
> As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
> a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
> when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
> slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
> was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
> wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.

Heinlein ?

Lynn

On 10/26/2023 10:28 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <YXw_M.115476$tnmf.81112@fx09.iad>,
> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>
>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>
>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>
>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
>>> forward=20
>>>>> year round.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>> =
>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>
>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
>>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>>>
>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>
>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>
>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
>> of the sun.
>>
>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>> of which hour it starts at.
>
>
> As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
> acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
> working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
> had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
> work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
> he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
> getting them all dusty.
>
> The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
> pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
> farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
> the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
> fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
> wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.
>
> But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
> want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
> he undertook to find out.
>
> He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
> reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
> day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
> them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
> regular.
>
> But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
> of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
> late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
> back to their old habits.
>
> As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
> a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
> when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
> slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
> was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
> wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.

Now he could just get a self-milking machine that the cows could walk
into whenever they felt like getting milked. :D

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/26/2023 12:28 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <YXw_M.115476$tnmf.81112@fx09.iad>,
>> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
>>>> forward=20
>>>>>> year round.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>> =
>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>
>>>>> =20
>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
>>>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>>>>
>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>
>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>
>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
>>> of the sun.
>>>
>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>
>>
>> As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
>> acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
>> working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
>> had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
>> work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
>> he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
>> getting them all dusty.
>>
>> The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
>> pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
>> farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
>> the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
>> fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
>> wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.
>>
>> But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
>> want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
>> he undertook to find out.
>>
>> He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
>> reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
>> day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
>> them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
>> regular.
>>
>> But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
>> of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
>> late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
>> back to their old habits.
>>
>> As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
>> a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
>> when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
>> slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
>> was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
>> wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.
>
>Heinlein ?
>

The man who was to lazy to fail.

Part of Time Enough for Love.

On 10/26/2023 3:39 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 10/26/2023 12:28 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In article <YXw_M.115476$tnmf.81112@fx09.iad>,
>>> Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =
>>>>> forward=20
>>>>>>> year round.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>> =
>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin=
>>>>> gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>>>>>
>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
>>>> of the sun.
>>>>
>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>
>>>
>>> As may be--David never made but one crop. The following year his
>>> acreage was "soil-banked," and he received a fat check for not
>>> working it, which suited him just fine. Dave loved those hills, he
>>> had always been homesick for them; he had left them simply to avoid
>>> work. Now he was being paid not to work in them--which suited him;
>>> he had never thought that their charms were enhanced by plowing and
>>> getting them all dusty.
>>>
>>> The "soil bank" payments took care of the mortgage, and his retired
>>> pay left a tidy sum over, so he hired a man to do those chores a
>>> farm requires even though it is not being worked for a crop--feed
>>> the chickens, milk a cow or two, tend a vegetable garden and some
>>> fruit trees, repair fences--while the hired man's wife helped David's
>>> wife with the house. For himself, David bought a hammock.
>>>
>>> But David was not a harsh employer. He suspected that cows did not
>>> want to be waked at five in the morning any more than he did--and
>>> he undertook to find out.
>>>
>>> He learned that cows would happily change their circadian to more
>>> reasonable hours, given the chance. They had to be milked twice a
>>> day; they were bred for that. But nine o'clock in the morning suited
>>> them for a first milking quite as well as five, as long as it was
>>> regular.
>>>
>>> But it did not stay that way; Dave's hired man had the nervous habit
>>> of work. To him there was something sinful in milking a cow that
>>> late. So David let him have his way, and hired man and cows went
>>> back to their old habits.
>>>
>>> As for Dave, he strung that hammock between two shade trees and put
>>> a table by it to hold a frosty drink. He would get up in the morning
>>> when he woke, whether it was nine or noon, eat breakfast, then walk
>>> slowly to his hammock to rest up for lunch. The hardest work he did
>>> was endorsing checks for deposit, and, once a month, balancing his
>>> wife's checkbook. He quit wearing shoes.
>>
>> Heinlein ?
>>
>
> The man who was to lazy to fail.
>
> Part of Time Enough for Love.

Thanks. I thought I recognized the short story. Pretty good for
something I read back in the 1980s.

Lynn

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>
>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>
>>>There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when=20
>>>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose=20
>>>when to change their clocks.
>>>
>>>There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight=20
>>>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use=20
>>>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes >>forward=20
>>>> year round.
>>>>=20
>>>> Explained at:
>>>> >>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>=20
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>>Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=20
>>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=20
>>>abandoned worldwide.
>>>
>>>Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=20
>>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=20
>>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),=20
>>>etc.
>>>
>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>
>>> =20
>>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savin>>gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=20
>>
>>That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>
>>The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>working longer because the Sun was up.
>
>Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, regardless
>of the sun.

Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.

There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.

Which can be done as long as there is light.

>There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>of which hour it starts at.

Precisely.

But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
then DST will get them up when there is one more hour of sunlight
available to them.

When we /pretend/ that 4AM is really 5AM, and get up at "5AM", then we
are /really/ getting up at 4AM which, at the right time and place,
means we are up for an additional hour of sunlight.

It isn't the number of hours of sunlight, it's the number of hours
people are up and working in that sunlight.

It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>
>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>
>>>>There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed =
>when=3D20
>>>>Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply =
>chose=3D20
>>>>when to change their clocks.
>>>>
>>>>There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly =
>Daylight=3D20
>>>>Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do =
>use=3D20
>>>>it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>forward=3D20
>>>>> year round.
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>> =3D
>>>https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>>Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -=3D20
>>>>literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be=3D20
>>>>abandoned worldwide.
>>>>
>>>>Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an=3D20
>>>>incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as=3D20
>>>>below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear =
>watches),=3D20
>>>>etc.
>>>>
>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>
>>>> =3D20
>>>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-sav=
>in=3D
>>>gs-time-reduce-energy-consumption>=3D20
>>>
>>>That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>
>>>The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>working longer because the Sun was up.
>>
>>Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600, =
>regardless
>>of the sun.
>
>Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>
>There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>
>Which can be done as long as there is light.
>
>>There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>of which hour it starts at.
>
>Precisely.
>
>But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,

Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.

[*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to a century
now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the grain belt.

On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>
>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>
>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>> regardless of the sun.
>>
>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>
>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>
>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>
>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>
>> Precisely.
>>
>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>
> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>
> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
> grain belt.

Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
everyone else:
<https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
never actually worked in doing that.

In article <uhhccv$2g2h4$1@dont-email.me>,
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>
>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>
>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>
>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>
>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>
>>> Precisely.
>>>
>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>
>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>
>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>> grain belt.
>
>Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>everyone else:
><https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>
>The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
>never actually worked in doing that.
>
>

My farming Aunt despised DST and referred to Standard Time as "God's Time".

The curious thing is that it is somehow more acceptable for the government
to change the clocks than to ask people to come to work an hour earlier.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>
>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>
>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>
>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>
>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>
>>> Precisely.
>>>
>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>
>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>
>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>> grain belt.
>
>Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>everyone else:
><https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>

I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
work more hours also.

And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
prompted its adoption.

>The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
>never actually worked in doing that.

If you say so. I have my urban legend, you are free to have yours.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 27 Oct 2023 22:12:12 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <uhhccv$2g2h4$1@dont-email.me>,
>Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>>On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>><https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>>
>>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>>
>>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>>
>>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>>
>>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>>
>>>> Precisely.
>>>>
>>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>>
>>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>>
>>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>>> grain belt.
>>
>>Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>>need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>>idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>>everyone else:
>><https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>>
>>The idea was to save energy (specifically coal originally), but it has
>>never actually worked in doing that.
>>
>>
>
>My farming Aunt despised DST and referred to Standard Time as "God's Time".

I don't doubt it.

I don't much like it myself.

>The curious thing is that it is somehow more acceptable for the government
>to change the clocks than to ask people to come to work an hour earlier.

It's /easier/.

You change the clocks at the factory/store/Army base/whatever and
people experience consequences if they show up an hour late because
they couldn't be bothered to "Spring forward" (which should, of
course, now be "Late Winter forward", although "Fall Back" still
works).
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>>
>>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>>
>>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>>
>>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>>
>>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>>
>>>> Precisely.
>>>>
>>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>>
>>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>>
>>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>>> grain belt.
>>
>> Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>> everyone else:
>> <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>
> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
> work more hours also.
>
> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
> prompted its adoption.
>
And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
doing it?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>On 10/25/2023 1:06 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>    https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>
>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes forward
>>> year round.
>>
>>> Explained at:
>>>    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo

I think a much better explanation can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GjkPAMSJdE

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>>>
>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>>>
>>>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>>>
>>>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>>>> grain belt.
>>>
>>> Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>>> everyone else:
>>> <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>>
>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>> work more hours also.
>>
>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>> prompted its adoption.
>>
>And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>doing it?

As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>>>>
>>>>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>>>>
>>>>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>>>>> grain belt.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>>>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>>>> everyone else:
>>>> <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>>>
>>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>>> work more hours also.
>>>
>>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>>> prompted its adoption.
>>>
>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>> doing it?
>
> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not disliked
and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Paul S Person wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

>>And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
>>still doing it?
>
>As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!

Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
quickly (for Congress) reversed it.

Brian

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 04:59:56 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
<defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Paul S Person wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>>>And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
>>>still doing it?
>>
>>As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>
>Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
>they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
>quickly (for Congress) reversed it.

As I noted otherpost, our State keeps trying to make DST year-round,
which is very difficult (not /quite/ as hard as a Constitiutional
Amendment, but still quite hard) when they /could/ keep us in PST all
year round any time they woke up and started paying attention.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"