On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>>>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>>>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>>>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>>>>>> grain belt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>>>>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>>>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>>>>> everyone else:
>>>>> <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>>>>
>>>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>>>> work more hours also.
>>>>
>>>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>>>> prompted its adoption.
>>>>
>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>>> doing it?
>>
>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>
>Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not disliked
>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.

If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.

Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
then?").

I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
globs.

It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 10/30/2023 9:05 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:08:32 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2023-10-27 16:52:14 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:01:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 11:07:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2023-10-25 20:06:15 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> xkcd: Daylight Saving Choice
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://xkcd.com/2846/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There was a place in the news not long ago where they disagreed when
>>>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving should start and end, so many businesses simply chose
>>>>>>>>>>> when to change their clocks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are also quite a few places that do not bother silly Daylight
>>>>>>>>>>> Saving at all, even some regions / towns within countries that do use
>>>>>>>>>>> it. That just makes it even messier and more confusing for people.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I like the compromise of just moving all clocks 39 minutes =3D
>>>>>>>>>>>> forward year round.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Explained at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2846:_Daylight_Saving_Choice
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Daylight Saving is and has always been a complete waste of time -
>>>>>>>>>>> literally. It is completely useless and pointless and should be
>>>>>>>>>>> abandoned worldwide.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whichever origin story you want to believe, it turns out is an
>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect assumption because it doesn't actually save energy (as
>>>>>>>>>>> below), it doesn't help farmers (animals and crops don't wear watches),
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Research has also shown that while it might decrease the time
>>>>>>>>>>> the lights are on, it could also increase the amount of energy
>>>>>>>>>>> we use to heat and cool our homes. Overall, the answers are
>>>>>>>>>>> inconclusive and any energy savings caused by Daylight Savings
>>>>>>>>>>> Time were found to be insignificant.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/02/07/will-scrapping-daylight-savings-time-reduce-energy-consumption>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That, IIRC, wasn't the point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point was getting workers (and farmers) starting earlier and
>>>>>>>>>> working longer because the Sun was up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you ever _been_ on a farm? Milking starts at 0400 and 1600,
>>>>>>>>> regardless of the sun.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Milking cows isn't all that happens on a farm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is also the plowin' and the sowin' and the reapin'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which can be done as long as there is light.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's still the same number of sunlit hours in the day regardless
>>>>>>>>> of which hour it starts at.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But if people don't normally get up until an hour after the Sun does,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Strawman argument, to be sure. A farmer will do his fieldwork while
>>>>>>> the sun is up[*], regardless of what the clock says.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [*] Although farm equipment (e.g. tractors) has had lights for close to
>>>>>>> a century now. Quite a bit of grain is combined during darkness in the
>>>>>>> grain belt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yep. Why force everyone to change their clocks when just the farmers
>>>>>> need to get up earlier?? The whole "Daylight Saving is for the farmers"
>>>>>> idea is simply nonsense anyway - most farmers hate it just as much as
>>>>>> everyone else:
>>>>>> <https://agamerica.com/blog/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>>>>> work more hours also.
>>>>>
>>>>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>>>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>>>>> prompted its adoption.
>>>>>
>>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>>>> doing it?
>>>
>>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>>
>> Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not disliked
>> and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.
>
> If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.
>
> Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
> candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
> tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
> accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
> then?").
>
> I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
> maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
> placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
> globs.
>
> It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.

That tradition had nothing to do with making the tree look pretty. It
was to keep the kids occupied so they wouldn't run around like savages!
Now get off his lawn! ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2023-10-30 16:05:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>>>>> work more hours also.
>>>>>
>>>>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>>>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>>>>> prompted its adoption.
>>>>
>>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>>>> doing it?
>>>
>>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>>
>> Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not
>> disliked>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.
>
> If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.
>
> Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
> candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
> tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
> accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
> then?").
>
> I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
> maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
> placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
> globs.
>
> It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.

The fools next door to us already have their Christmas tree up and the
lights twinkling at night - it's been there about a week, at least.
Shops have had their Christmas stock on shelves for weeks as well. :-\

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:43:57 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2023-10-30 16:05:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>>>>>> work more hours also.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>>>>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>>>>>> prompted its adoption.
>>>>>
>>>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>>>>> doing it?
>>>>
>>>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>>>
>>> Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not
>>> disliked>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.
>>
>> If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.
>>
>> Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
>> candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
>> tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
>> accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
>> then?").
>>
>> I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
>> maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
>> placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
>> globs.
>>
>> It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.
>
>The fools next door to us already have their Christmas tree up and the
>lights twinkling at night - it's been there about a week, at least.
>Shops have had their Christmas stock on shelves for weeks as well. :-\

In a lot of cases, it's their big season. Some sell more over the
holidays than the do the rest of the year [1]. So a desire to extend
"the holidays" is understandable. Indeed, I was asked if I was "ready
for Holloween" at the QFC yesterday. I didn't answer, but of course I
am ready: ready to not turn my porch light on, that is.

[1] The island stores in /Jaws/ are probably an exception.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.

[Hal Heydt]
Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
confused, though.

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>
>[Hal Heydt]
>Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>confused, though.

And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
clocks as directed.

As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
probably do so as well.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>
>>[Hal Heydt]
>>Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>confused, though.
>
>And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>clocks as directed.
>
>As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>probably do so as well.

Unix systems did so a decade before the first line of windows code
was written.

On 11/1/2023 11:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>
>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>> confused, though.
>>
>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>> clocks as directed.
>>
>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>> probably do so as well.
>
> Unix systems did so a decade before the first line of windows code
> was written.

Where do you think the Windows code came from ? FreeBSD !

Lynn

On 11/1/2023 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> wrote:
>
>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>> confused, though.
>
> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
> clocks as directed.
>
> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
> probably do so as well.

Actually, many of the old Windows operating systems have had emergency
patches since Congress keeps on moving the DST on / off days around.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 11/1/2023 11:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>>
>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>>> confused, though.
>>>
>>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>>> clocks as directed.
>>>
>>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>>> probably do so as well.
>>
>> Unix systems did so a decade before the first line of windows code
>> was written.
>
>Where do you think the Windows code came from ? FreeBSD !

There was no 'FreeBSD' in those days. Just BSD, which was
derived from Unix.

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 14:23:07 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/1/2023 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>
>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>> confused, though.
>>
>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>> clocks as directed.
>>
>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>> probably do so as well.
>
>Actually, many of the old Windows operating systems have had emergency
>patches since Congress keeps on moving the DST on / off days around.

You mean "important updates".

And, OK, keeping up with the change dates is more important than, say,
using Windows Defender to hound the user into replacing the computer
because XP was coming to the end of its life.

Some "important" updates are important to users. Others are important
only to Microsoft.

My use of "convenience" was satirical: by doing this, Microsoft (and
others) are enforcing the gummints policy. One wonders when the
Republicans will start investigating /that/.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 10/30/23 12:59 AM, Default User wrote:
> Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
>>> still doing it?
>>
>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>
> Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
> they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
> quickly (for Congress) reversed it.
>
>
> Brian

It was during the first OPEC embargo. Children were walking to school
before dawn.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> wrote:
>
>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>> confused, though.
>
> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
> clocks as directed.
>
> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
> probably do so as well.

I con’t remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in the
closed-captioning data.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> writes:
>On 10/30/23 12:59 AM, Default User wrote:
>> Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
>>>> still doing it?
>>>
>>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>>
>> Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
>> they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
>> quickly (for Congress) reversed it.
>>
>>
>> Brian
>
>It was during the first OPEC embargo. Children were walking to school
>before dawn.

It didn't bother me at all (it was a three block walk to elementary
school).

On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:

> On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>
>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>> confused, though.
>>
>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>> clocks as directed.
>>
>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>> probably do so as well.
>
> I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
> But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
> televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
> the closed-captioning data.

Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
etc.)

Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
the dates.

Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
infotainment system).

The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
screwing about with them ever again.

On Sat, 04 Nov 2023 15:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 10/30/23 12:59 AM, Default User wrote:
>>> Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>
>>>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we
>>>>> still doing it?
>>>>
>>>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>>>
>>> Any state can opt out of DST, and some do. What people usually think
>>> they want is that year-round. At one point the country did that, but
>>> quickly (for Congress) reversed it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>>It was during the first OPEC embargo. Children were walking to school
>>before dawn.
>
>It didn't bother me at all (it was a three block walk to elementary
>school).

And, besides, as another poster noted, the danger to children is of
less importance than the convenience to adults.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:03:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>
>> On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>>
>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>>> confused, though.
>>>
>>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>>> clocks as directed.
>>>
>>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>>> probably do so as well.
>>
>> I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
>> But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
>> televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
>> the closed-captioning data.
>
>Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
>Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
>same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
>etc.)
>
>Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
>country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
>devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
>wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
>times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
>the dates.
>
>Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
>changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
>and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
>it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
>easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
>infotainment system).
>
>The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
>cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
>The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
>to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
>screwing about with them ever again.

Except for changing everything by 30 minutes, I agree: DST should stop
and never be heard from again.

Changing by 30 minutes would simply move the points where clock time
(in ST, of course) matches reality from the /middle/ of each Time Zone
to one of the edges. This statement, of course, depends on my actually
knowing how Time Zones work.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 11/5/2023 7:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:03:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>
>>> On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>>>> confused, though.
>>>>
>>>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>>>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>>>> clocks as directed.
>>>>
>>>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>>>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>>>> probably do so as well.
>>>
>>> I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
>>> But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
>>> televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
>>> the closed-captioning data.
>>
>> Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
>> Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
>> same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
>> etc.)
>>
>> Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
>> country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
>> devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
>> wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
>> times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
>> the dates.
>>
>> Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
>> changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
>> and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
>> it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
>> easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
>> infotainment system).
>>
>> The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
>> cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
>> The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
>> to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
>> screwing about with them ever again.
>
> Except for changing everything by 30 minutes, I agree: DST should stop
> and never be heard from again.
>
> Changing by 30 minutes would simply move the points where clock time
> (in ST, of course) matches reality from the /middle/ of each Time Zone
> to one of the edges. This statement, of course, depends on my actually
> knowing how Time Zones work.

Its all the railroads' fault.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <nd82kipt9grp0r31pp4o5i7p014go35jis@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:43:57 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 2023-10-30 16:05:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
>>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:46:12 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/29/2023 9:08 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:51:51 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/28/2023 8:49 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never said it was for farmers only; during WWII, factories needed to
>>>>>>> work more hours also.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And applying today's standards and practices to the time DST (and
>>>>>>> DDST) originated is inappropriate. It was the situation /then/ that
>>>>>>> prompted its adoption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And said situation ended ~70 years ago so why the bleep are we still
>>>>>> doing it?
>>>>>
>>>>> As Tevye would sing: Traa-diiiii-tion!
>>>>
>>>> Traditions should be liked and fun or potentially useful, not
>>>> disliked>and kept around because our great-grandparents did it that way.
>>>
>>> If everybody /wanted/ to do it, it wouldn't have to be a tradition.
>>>
>>> Our great-grandparents may have lit their Christmas trees with
>>> candles. If not, /their/ great-grandparents surely did. That's a
>>> tradition that died out. With, no doubt, a lot of whining and
>>> accusations of cowardice ("who's afraid of a house fire now and
>>> then?").
>>>
>>> I myself have witnessed the extinction (in me) of a tradition of my
>>> maternal grandfather's: that each and every piece of tinsel must be
>>> placed on the tree individually. As opposed to being tossed on in
>>> globs.
>>>
>>> It took hours, but then, he wasn't the one doing it.
>>
>>The fools next door to us already have their Christmas tree up and the
>>lights twinkling at night - it's been there about a week, at least.
>>Shops have had their Christmas stock on shelves for weeks as well. :-\
>
>In a lot of cases, it's their big season. Some sell more over the
>holidays than the do the rest of the year [1]. So a desire to extend
>"the holidays" is understandable. Indeed, I was asked if I was "ready
>for Holloween" at the QFC yesterday. I didn't answer, but of course I
>am ready: ready to not turn my porch light on, that is.
>
>[1] The island stores in /Jaws/ are probably an exception.

[Hal Heydt]
Used to be that Thanksgiving was the last Thursday on November.
FDR changed it to the 4th Thursday in a year with 5 Thursdays in
the month in order to start the "Christmas season" a week early
to help retailers economic recovery.
So the move to start earlier isn't exactly new.

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 08:38:35 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 11/5/2023 7:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:03:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-11-04 01:11:03 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>
>>>> On 11/1/23 11:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>>>>> to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Hal Heydt]
>>>>>> Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>>>>> people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>>>>> to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>>>>> confused, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>>>>> areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>>>>> clocks as directed.
>>>>>
>>>>> As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>>>>> automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>>>>> probably do so as well.
>>>>
>>>> I con't remember MacOS Classic, but macOS and all its derivatives do.
>>>> But there are also lesser devices that tune into WWVB, and late NTSC
>>>> televisions and VCRs could decode time signals off a side-channel in
>>>> the closed-captioning data.
>>>
>>> Early versions of the Classic MacOS did not have automatic Daylight
>>> Saving time changes, but the later ones did. It would have been the
>>> same for other old OSes (early versions of Windows, AmigaOS, AtariOS,
>>> etc.)
>>>
>>> Support for older devices usually ends realtively quickly, so if your
>>> country changes the rules for the start and/or end date, then your old
>>> devices will continue to use the old rules and change the time on the
>>> wrong dates. I used to have to change my old computer's clock four
>>> times a year thanks to the fools in New Zealand's government changed
>>> the dates.
>>>
>>> Every silly Daylight Saving changeover means I have to go around
>>> changing two wall clocks, my watch, my mother's watch, the oven clock,
>>> and the microwave clock, my car clock (which is a bit of a pain since
>>> it can only be altered forwards), my mother's car clock (which is
>>> easier since it has a "Daylight Saving" on/off button in the
>>> infotainment system).
>>>
>>> The varying start and end dates in different countries, states, and
>>> cities, just makes a complete mockery of the International Time Zones.
>>> The world's governments should simply select a particular time and day
>>> to change *all* the clocks by 30mins or whatever, and then stop
>>> screwing about with them ever again.
>>
>> Except for changing everything by 30 minutes, I agree: DST should stop
>> and never be heard from again.
>>
>> Changing by 30 minutes would simply move the points where clock time
>> (in ST, of course) matches reality from the /middle/ of each Time Zone
>> to one of the edges. This statement, of course, depends on my actually
>> knowing how Time Zones work.
>
>Its all the railroads' fault.

Indeed.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

In article <7is4kidfsu2l068t9to9ul17tvgkd88335@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>
>>[Hal Heydt]
>>Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>confused, though.
>
>And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>clocks as directed.
>
>As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>probably do so as well.

[Hal Heydt]
I can assure you that at least series of Linux releases does,
too. And without any need to re-boot to make the time change
effective.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <7is4kidfsu2l068t9to9ul17tvgkd88335@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 02:37:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4mnnji5nklll1u7tdidad409ijbuh5ov7c@4ax.com>,
>>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>It's easier to require everyone to move their clocks ahead than it is
>>>>to convince everyone to get up an hour earlier.
>>>
>>>[Hal Heydt]
>>>Or, not to put too fine a point on it, it's easier to lie to
>>>people than to explain why you want them to do something and try
>>>to convince them you are correct. Only works on the easily
>>>confused, though.
>>
>>And yet, easily confused or not, pretty much everyone (in the affected
>>areas, of course, not everyone absolutely) goes along and moves their
>>clocks as directed.
>>
>>As an added convenience, Windows computers change their clocks
>>automatically. And many non-Windows computers and many devices
>>probably do so as well.
>
>[Hal Heydt]
>I can assure you that at least series of Linux releases does,
>too. And without any need to re-boot to make the time change
>effective.

Unix-like systems have been automatically changing between
summer time and winter time since 1980 plus or minus, sans reboot.

Unlike windows, unix has always kept internal time in GMT
(and later UTC) - it is when the date/time is displayed that
the adjustments for the current timezone are taken into
account - which means that users all over the world can use
the same system and see their local time by setting an
environment variable (TZ).

In 70's and 80's, TZ would be formatted as

TZ=EST5EDT

Where EST was 5 hours behind GMT (4 during EDT).

Somewhat later, a more sophisticated format was developed that
encompassed the wide variety of world-wide time zones.

Today, it's more like

TZ='America/Los_Angeles'

And the system holds a database file which describes the
relationship between the local timezone and UTC.

$ TZ='America/New_York' date
Tue Nov 7 09:50:04 EST 2023
$ TZ='America/Los_Angeles' date
Tue Nov 7 06:50:11 PST 2023

$ TZ='Europe/Berlin' date
Tue Nov 7 15:50:33 CET 2023