On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 23:45:32 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"
<grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

>On 15/07/2023 21:34, Paul Dormer wrote:
>> In article <u8sbp5$4bn7$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with
>>> my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as
>>> recent as this year.
>>
>> I use my debit card in supermarkets two of three times a week and
>> occasionally I have to insert my PIN (which I do remember). I presume it
>> is some check to make sure it is still me using the card.
>
>There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.
>
>The banks put it up to $200 during the worst of COVID, but it's been
>back down for a while now.
>
>It's presumably mentioned in the T&C for your debit card, which you
>haven't read. Nobody has read them. ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)

I've been using my debit card almost exclusively for years. By
observation I've seen that there is often is a price below which I'm
not asked form my PIN, but that price seems to vary from place to
place, and seems to be set by the venders. (U.S.A.)
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 23:45:32 +1000, Gary R. Schmidt <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 21:34, Paul Dormer wrote:
>> In article <u8sbp5$4bn7$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'd forgotten to mention that some vending devices wanted a PIN with
>>> my credit card. If I have one, I don't know what it is. That was as
>>> recent as this year.
>>
>> I use my debit card in supermarkets two of three times a week and
>> occasionally I have to insert my PIN (which I do remember). I presume it
>> is some check to make sure it is still me using the card.
>
> There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.

Not just a ceiling on amount, it asks every X consecutive non-PIN
transactions. Taking money out of an ATM counts as a PIN transaction.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

In article <slrnub816b.hrjn.andyl@azaal.plus.com>, andyl@azaal.plus.com
(Andy Leighton) wrote:

> > There is usually a maximum no-PIN value, here in Oz it's $100.

Yes, in the UK it was raised to �100 in October 2021. As far as I can
see, it still is.
>
> Not just a ceiling on amount, it asks every X consecutive non-PIN
> transactions. Taking money out of an ATM counts as a PIN transaction.

That's certainly how it comes across to me. I never exceeded the old
amount in a supermarket before it went up, and certainly haven't since.
But I do still occasionally get asked for a PIN.

begin fnord
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> (Hal Heydt)
> If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
> will be a place I won't do business with.

Businesses in parts of Albuquerque have been getting robbed so often
that if they didn't go no cash they'd have to close their doors.

--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 10:45:01 AM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
> > (Hal Heydt)
> > If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that
> > will be a place I won't do business with.
> Businesses in parts of Albuquerque have been getting robbed so often
> that if they didn't go no cash they'd have to close their doors.

My understanding is that US currency is universally good for paying
*debts*. Not all payments are debt payments.

If you go to a restaurant, order food and eat it, you have a debt. Regardless
of the restaurant's policy, you could leave cash and walk away.

However, suppose you go to a food truck and order a hotdog. They say '$2,
card only'. You offer cash, they can refuse. The transaction hasn't taken place,
and no debt will exist until you receive the hotdog. They can decide not to
complete the transaction.

pt

Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <u8rfrc$134v$1@dont-email.me>, garym@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Stores in Germany don't always accept the big-name credit cards, so
>> you might have to use cash more than in some other countries. The
>> only other issue I've noticed is that few ATMs accept the old
>> pre-chip bank cards, but the ones with chips are pretty much
>> universal by now. It just caught me when Germany was transitioning
>> faster than the US.
>
> I certainly had no trouble in Berlin last year, although a few little
> corner shops didn't take cards. It was a very hot week and I kept
> needing to buy drinks.
>
> Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few
> American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop
> having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in
> Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their
> terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.

Most US cards are chip and signature...the PIN, if they have one, is for cash
advances. I specifically looked for an issuer that would do chip and PIN for
travel. When I applied for the card they asked whether I wanted it set for
chip and signature or chip and PIN. I've encountered a few places in the US
where I had to either go behind the counter or, if at a drive through, use a
different card because their terminal was fixed/had a cable that was too
short to reach.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 11:08:05 AM UTC-4, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <u8rfrc$134v$1...@dont-email.me>, ga...@mcgath.com (Gary McGath)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Stores in Germany don't always accept the big-name credit cards, so
> >> you might have to use cash more than in some other countries. The
> >> only other issue I've noticed is that few ATMs accept the old
> >> pre-chip bank cards, but the ones with chips are pretty much
> >> universal by now. It just caught me when Germany was transitioning
> >> faster than the US.
> >
> > I certainly had no trouble in Berlin last year, although a few little
> > corner shops didn't take cards. It was a very hot week and I kept
> > needing to buy drinks.
> >
> > Certainly had chip and PIN cards in the UK for many years. I saw a few
> > American tourists having problems when the change was made here, the shop
> > having to get the customer to enter a PIN. What I did find last year in
> > Germany was that each shop and restaurant had different designs for their
> > terminals and I had to look to see where to place the card.
> Most US cards are chip and signature...the PIN, if they have one, is for cash
> advances. I specifically looked for an issuer that would do chip and PIN for
> travel. When I applied for the card they asked whether I wanted it set for
> chip and signature or chip and PIN. I've encountered a few places in the US
> where I had to either go behind the counter or, if at a drive through, use a
> different card because their terminal was fixed/had a cable that was too
> short to reach.

I have found more and more US credit cards now have PINs, though only
some vendors require them.

I had to scramble to set one for my Corporate CC last time I arrived in Vegas.
Both the hotel, and the shuttle bus required one.

pt

In article <u9oo7r$d9s$1@memoryalpha.rosettacon.com>,
rkshullat@rosettacondot.com () wrote:

> I've encountered a few places in the US
> where I had to either go behind the counter or, if at a drive
> through, use a
> different card because their terminal was fixed/had a cable that was
> too
> short to reach.

I recall in the early days of Chip and PIN going to a restaurant where
the reader was on a cable which was long enough to reach the tables. How
often people snagged it, I don't know.

>>>The machine doesn't issue a receipt unless you specifically request a
>>>receipt -- so why are so many discarded?

As someone else already replied: sometimes the printed receipt
has information that is not on the screen
or would require a complex sequence to navigate.

> Perhaps people get cash from the ATM, put it into their wallet,
> and notice all the other receipts from other ATM transactions in there
> and throw them all out?

Agreed: I use the table to reorganize my pocket's contents,
discarding receipts, wrappers and papers that accumulated during the day.

--

>... It just caught me when Germany was transitioning faster than the US.

No surprise there.
Most countries outside the USA "have a clue" and want to REDUCE fraud,
whereas in the USA, credit card companies just "write down" fraud as a usual loss
instead of actively thwarthing it, because THAT TAKES EFFORT :-(

--

> If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards,
> that will be a place I won't do business with.

That's your prerogative and I respect that.
It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.

> And--just as an
>FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
>DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
>made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.

I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning
stores/businesses that no longer accept cash.
Taking cash is NOT FREE - there are costs to handling cash
(particularly if an armored car pickup is involved)
and liability: robbery, theft and "internal loss" (sticky fingered employees).

So please understand their side too.
--

>Anything which is pay-before-service can refuse cash because there is
>no debt. For instance, fast food places require payment before they
>give you food, so they could be credit card only.

Sadly, more food service places now treat everyone as a criminal
and force pre-payment
because of videos showing folks ordering food
and running away without paying for it :-(

> A long time back,
> one of our transit systems wanted to go non-cash.

Okay, you caught me flip-flopping a bit.
As a New Yorker, I'm accustomed to anonymity when traveling:
buy subway tokens in cash and use the tokens as needed.
Most transportation systems now use some sort of electronic fare card:
wireless/RFID, barcode or magnetic stripe.
One use cards are possible but discouraged
making total anonymity much harder.
I've "given in" and used credit cards when refilling reusable cards,
thus risking linking my identity to the otherwise semi-anonymous fare card.

--

Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
> Someone Else <someone.else@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>> A long time back, one of our transit systems wanted to go non-cash.

> Okay, you caught me flip-flopping a bit. As a New Yorker, I'm
> accustomed to anonymity when traveling: buy subway tokens in cash
> and use the tokens as needed.

I heard that they phased those out, perhaps because all tokens cost
the same, but different trips cost different amounts?

> Most transportation systems now use some sort of electronic fare
> card: wireless/RFID, barcode or magnetic stripe.

That's what DC's system did. The rail system, which opened in the
1970s, originally used magnetic stripe cards, which you could buy for
cash from a machine, for any amount within reason. How much each trip
cost varied with time of day and distance. There was a place for you
to sign your name on the cardboard card, but I don't think anyone ever
did. The cards were ruined if they got damp, folded, or were exposed
to a magnetic field. And in some places on the trains there were
strong fields.

Around the turn of the century, they phased them out, replacing them
with plastic RFID cards. They're still anonymous, but riders are
encouraged to register them online so that they can be replaced if
they're lost, stolen, or cease working. (And they still often cease
working.) There's a senior RFID card, supposedly allowing those over
65 to ride for half price, and that is *not* anonymous, and those who
don't have current government-issued picture ID can't get it anyway.
But it's a cheat, it's actually "half the standard fare," but they
define "standard fare" as rush hour fare, so those who aren't riding
during rush hour often actually pay *more* with a senior card than
they would with a regular card.

Now they're gradually trying to transition riders to "mobile pay,"
whatever that means, but there have been lots of bugs. Both kinds
of farecards have always been completely mobile. We're not like Yap
Islanders, whose currency consists of special large immobile rocks.
I think "mobile pay" has something to do with cell phones. I don't
know if anonymity is possible with that system.

Ridership peaked 15 years ago, despite new stations opening since
then. It's been declining ever since, except for a small rebound
after the current pandemic started to fade. That's mostly because the
reliability has been terrible, despite -- or because of -- constant
maintenance. "Once again we're shutting the whole Orange Line down
for the whole summer, for intensive maintenance. Please take the
summer off or find another way to get to work." "We're withdrawing
all 7000-series rail cars from service because their wheels tend to
fall off. Fortunately, that's only half the fleet." There are also
problems with safety, and the fares are sky-high and ever increasing.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

Jeff Jonas <jeffj@panix.com> wrote:
> Hal Heydt wrote:
>> If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that will
>> be a place I won't do business with.

Same here.

> That's your prerogative and I respect that.
> It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.

In my case it's for two main reasons:

* I don't want more ads of any kind, whether or not they're targeted.

* It's anyone's guess what patterns of purchases may be seen as
suspicious. Before the Boston Marathon bombing, there was nothing
suspicious about buying backpacks, pressure cookers, or cell phones.
And 46 years ago I learned the hard way just how easy it is to be
falsely convicted of a serious crime. (I also own hundreds of
"suspicious" books -- along with thousands of non-suspicious books.
By selectively listing them a prosecutor could "prove" that I'm a
Nazi, Communist, terrorist, soldier of fortune, pervert, etc.

> I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning stores/
> businesses that no longer accept cash. Taking cash is NOT FREE -
> there are costs to handling cash (particularly if an armored car
> pickup is involved) and liability: robbery, theft and "internal
> loss" (sticky fingered employees).

DC's Metro system had sticky-fingered employees in their parking lots.
Instead of researching how nearly every retail business in the US
prevents its employees from pocketing customer cash, Metro instead
mandated that parking can be paid for only with their SmarTrip
RFID card.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On Tuesday, August 8, 2023 at 11:11:22 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Jeff Jonas <je...@panix.com> wrote:
> > Hal Heydt wrote:
> >> If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards, that will
> >> be a place I won't do business with.
> Same here.
> > That's your prerogative and I respect that.
> > It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.
> In my case it's for two main reasons:
>
> * I don't want more ads of any kind, whether or not they're targeted.
>
> * It's anyone's guess what patterns of purchases may be seen as
> suspicious. Before the Boston Marathon bombing, there was nothing
> suspicious about buying backpacks, pressure cookers, or cell phones.
> And 46 years ago I learned the hard way just how easy it is to be
> falsely convicted of a serious crime. (I also own hundreds of
> "suspicious" books -- along with thousands of non-suspicious books.
> By selectively listing them a prosecutor could "prove" that I'm a
> Nazi, Communist, terrorist, soldier of fortune, pervert, etc.
> > I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning stores/
> > businesses that no longer accept cash. Taking cash is NOT FREE -
> > there are costs to handling cash (particularly if an armored car
> > pickup is involved) and liability: robbery, theft and "internal
> > loss" (sticky fingered employees).
> DC's Metro system had sticky-fingered employees in their parking lots.
> Instead of researching how nearly every retail business in the US
> prevents its employees from pocketing customer cash, Metro instead
> mandated that parking can be paid for only with their SmarTrip
> RFID card.
> --

Re New York's MTA:

[quote]

By the end of 2003, the token system was fully retired, we were all MetroCard carriers.

[/quote]

https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/brief-history-how-new-yorkers-have-paid-subway

I haven't made a trip into NYC since the pandemic started, but the Metrocards that
replaced tokens are being phased out in favor of a tap-and-pay system dubbed OMNY.

https://gothamist.com/news/mta-omny-explainer-subway-bus-payment-nyc

The rollout has had its problems. An OMNY card is 5 times as expensive as a MetroCard,
with fewer features. The straphanger is expected to use a smartphone app or his own credit
card with a tap-and-pay option to avoid using a transit-only OMNY card.

The end-date for Metrocards has been pushed back.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/29/mtas-omny-645m-system-hit-with-software-bugs-costly-delays/

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310

On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 02:00:13 -0000 (UTC), jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
wrote:

>> If I encounter some place that will *only* accept cards,
>> that will be a place I won't do business with.
>
>That's your prerogative and I respect that.
>It's a privacy issue, personal choice, etc.
>
>> And--just as an
>>FYI--US paper currency has "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL
>>DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" printed on it, so a case can be
>>made that refusing to accept cash is illegal.
>
>I believe comp.risks recently had a posting concerning
>stores/businesses that no longer accept cash.
>Taking cash is NOT FREE - there are costs to handling cash
>(particularly if an armored car pickup is involved)
>and liability: robbery, theft and "internal loss" (sticky fingered employees).
>
>So please understand their side too.

Several years ago the New York subway system studied going with no
fares, and discovered that it would be cheaper than continuing fares
because of the savings on maintaining gates and fare booths, and on
running the "Money Train"* which would go around the system at slack
times to collect money from, and distribute tokens to, fare booths.
They decided not to go that way because the powers that be decided it
would be anathema to let the punters ride for free.

Note: the fares have never paid for the system, and it's always been
subsidized.

*Pellem 123, anyone?
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Wednesday, August 9, 2023 at 1:15:46 PM UTC-4, Tim Merrigan wrote:

> *Pellem 123, anyone?

Pelham.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taking_of_Pelham_One_Two_Three_(novel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taking_of_Pelham_One_Two_Three_(1974_film)

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072251/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelham_Bay_Park_station

--
Kevin R