Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 13:18:44 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 6:30:29 AM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 11:17:14 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > As to Andy, he suck up to the
> > > PLO/Fatah/Hamas/etc...
> > > > dk
> > Because of your repeated offensive posts I'm going to do the same with you as I do with The Freak - not engage in any further dialogue. I don't have a killfile so what you will get periodically is a message saying "Not replying". Admittedly this is a response in itself and I would prefer to treat you like any other troll and not feed any of your trolling, but for the time being I'll just point out that I'm not replying. At least it's one step towards cleaning up the disgusting mess you leave behind you.
> Here is a viewpoint that feels and sounds right and just:
>
> https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-israel-and-the-palestinians/

It's at least a viewpoint. The status quo isn't acceptable. I have my doubts about Sanders' two-state solution, but who knows? Besides, the range of possible solutions is quite small.

Henk

On 7/4/2023 8:11 AM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 13:18:44 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:
>> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 6:30:29 AM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 11:17:14 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>> As to Andy, he suck up to the
>>>> PLO/Fatah/Hamas/etc...
>>>>> dk
>>> Because of your repeated offensive posts I'm going to do the same with you as I do with The Freak - not engage in any further dialogue. I don't have a killfile so what you will get periodically is a message saying "Not replying". Admittedly this is a response in itself and I would prefer to treat you like any other troll and not feed any of your trolling, but for the time being I'll just point out that I'm not replying. At least it's one step towards cleaning up the disgusting mess you leave behind you.
>> Here is a viewpoint that feels and sounds right and just:
>>
>> https://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-israel-and-the-palestinians/
>
> It's at least a viewpoint. The status quo isn't acceptable. I have my doubts about Sanders' two-state solution, but who knows? Besides, the range of possible solutions is quite small.
>
> Henk

Sometimes the status quo is the best you can do, at least for some period of time. That's why the status quo came into being in the first place.

Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 16:29:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

> Sometimes the status quo is the best you can do, at least for some period of time. That's why the status quo came into being in the first place.

I agree with the first sentence. If you don't know where to go, it's better to stay where you are. The second one has a philosophical ring to it. Is there a ratio behind historical events, or are they a convergence of circumstances? Even without asking, I think we'll disagree.

Henk

Latest news from France is that they are trialling a decree stating that shorter journeys should be made by train and not by internal flights. This primarily affects Paris-Lyon/Nantes/Bordeaux. There are many exceptions such that it will only affect well under 10% of such travel.

Still, feeble as it is it's still a symbolic step in the right direction. So well done Macron for that. He has his uses.

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:19:37 PM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
> Latest news from France is that they are trialling a decree stating that shorter journeys should be made by train and not by internal flights.

France of course has a superlative railway system.

Obviously it's only a matter of time and Macron will be paparrazied getting on just one of those shorter airplane rides.

On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 16:24:29 UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:19:37 PM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Latest news from France is that they are trialling a decree stating that shorter journeys should be made by train and not by internal flights.
> France of course has a superlative railway system.
>
> Obviously it's only a matter of time and Macron will be paparrazied getting on just one of those shorter airplane rides.

Ha Ha......

Can you imagine such a decree happening in the USA? There would be gunfights......

Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 17:19:37 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> Latest news from France is that they are trialling a decree stating that shorter journeys should be made by train and not by internal flights. This primarily affects Paris-Lyon/Nantes/Bordeaux. There are many exceptions such that it will only affect well under 10% of such travel.
>
> Still, feeble as it is it's still a symbolic step in the right direction. So well done Macron for that. He has his uses.

Chances are that people will take the car, especially if they must pay more for a train ticket.

Last time I took the train in France was over 60 years ago, from Brussels to Limoges and back. I have no idea what the current popularity of the French railway is and what the costs of a ticket are."

Henk

On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 16:39:08 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > Still, feeble as it is it's still a symbolic step in the right direction. So well done Macron for that. He has his uses.
> Chances are that people will take the car, especially if they must pay more for a train ticket.
>
> Last time I took the train in France was over 60 years ago, from Brussels to Limoges and back. I have no idea what the current popularity of the French railway is and what the costs of a ticket are."
>
> Henk

The next logical step to transferring travel to trains would be to heavily subsidise the cost of the tickets. At least in France the SNCF is state-owned. I can see this coming, and one or other of the EU countries is going to offer free train/bus/tram travel if they haven't done so already.

Of course this all goes out of the window with the next pandemic.

Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 17:51:31 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 16:39:08 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > Still, feeble as it is it's still a symbolic step in the right direction. So well done Macron for that. He has his uses.
> > Chances are that people will take the car, especially if they must pay more for a train ticket.
> >
> > Last time I took the train in France was over 60 years ago, from Brussels to Limoges and back. I have no idea what the current popularity of the French railway is and what the costs of a ticket are."
> >
> > Henk
> The next logical step to transferring travel to trains would be to heavily subsidise the cost of the tickets. At least in France the SNCF is state-owned. I can see this coming, and one or other of the EU countries is going to offer free train/bus/tram travel if they haven't done so already.
>
> Of course this all goes out of the window with the next pandemic.

I wonder if the EU will permit it. It's very strict these days on subsidizing facilities.

Free public transportation? Perhaps in France. I don't see that happening over here. Our government needs every Euro it can lay its hands on.

Henk

On 7/4/2023 10:40 AM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 16:29:06 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>> Sometimes the status quo is the best you can do, at least for some period of time. That's why the status quo came into being in the first place.
>
> I agree with the first sentence. If you don't know where to go, it's better to stay where you are. The second one has a philosophical ring to it. Is there a ratio behind historical events, or are they a convergence of circumstances? Even without asking, I think we'll disagree.
>
> Henk

I know, many will say the status quo is usually engineered by the elite to take advantage of the masses. One could say the reason there is no Palestinian state today is because the Palestinian leadership, dating back as far as the 1960s have prevented it, in order to enrich themselves at the expense of the Palestinian masses. It has been reported (in MSM, even) that Yassir Arafat's net worth was in excess of a billion dollars at the time of his death. Mahmoud Abbas' net worth is estimated to be in excess of $100 million. A piker compared to Arafat. Benjamin Netanyahu's net worth has been reported to be around $13 million. An amateur.

On 7/4/2023 11:32 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 16:24:29 UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:19:37 PM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> Latest news from France is that they are trialling a decree stating that shorter journeys should be made by train and not by internal flights.
>> France of course has a superlative railway system.
>>
>> Obviously it's only a matter of time and Macron will be paparrazied getting on just one of those shorter airplane rides.
>
> Ha Ha......
>
> Can you imagine such a decree happening in the USA? There would be gunfights......

No, in the U.S. the President has no such power. Really though, why not? California already has a bunch of bizarre environmental regulations, and California innovations are usually exported to the rest of the country.

On 7/4/2023 11:39 AM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 17:19:37 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
>> Latest news from France is that they are trialling a decree stating that shorter journeys should be made by train and not by internal flights. This primarily affects Paris-Lyon/Nantes/Bordeaux. There are many exceptions such that it will only affect well under 10% of such travel.
>>
>> Still, feeble as it is it's still a symbolic step in the right direction. So well done Macron for that. He has his uses.
>
> Chances are that people will take the car, especially if they must pay more for a train ticket.

Ah, the law of unintended consequences rears its ugly head.

>
> Last time I took the train in France was over 60 years ago, from Brussels to Limoges and back. I have no idea what the current popularity of the French railway is and what the costs of a ticket are."
>
> Henk

On 7/4/2023 12:04 PM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 4 juli 2023 om 17:51:31 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
>> On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 16:39:08 UTC+1, HT wrote:
>>>> Still, feeble as it is it's still a symbolic step in the right direction. So well done Macron for that. He has his uses.
>>> Chances are that people will take the car, especially if they must pay more for a train ticket.
>>>
>>> Last time I took the train in France was over 60 years ago, from Brussels to Limoges and back. I have no idea what the current popularity of the French railway is and what the costs of a ticket are."
>>>
>>> Henk
>> The next logical step to transferring travel to trains would be to heavily subsidise the cost of the tickets. At least in France the SNCF is state-owned. I can see this coming, and one or other of the EU countries is going to offer free train/bus/tram travel if they haven't done so already.
>>
>> Of course this all goes out of the window with the next pandemic.
>
> I wonder if the EU will permit it. It's very strict these days on subsidizing facilities.
>
> Free public transportation? Perhaps in France.

What is the likelihood of non-train using voters reacting poorly to this.

I don't see that happening over here. Our government needs every Euro it can lay its hands on.
>
> Henk
>
>

No serious measures will be taken unless, and until, the effects of global warming are clearly seen to be harming people's lives. That could be too late, I have no idea. Andy does, though, and will tell us. I can't wait.

> No serious measures will be taken unless, and until, the effects of global warming are clearly seen to be harming people's lives. That could be too late, I have no idea. Andy does, though, and will tell us. I can't wait.

I'm not optimistic. In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion, among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It is expected that this investment will reduce global warming by 0,000036 degrees.

If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost of Euro 80 thousand per year.

Henk

On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 19:59:48 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > No serious measures will be taken unless, and until, the effects of global warming are clearly seen to be harming people's lives. That could be too late, I have no idea. Andy does, though, and will tell us. I can't wait.
> I'm not optimistic. In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion, among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It is expected that this investment will reduce global warming by 0,000036 degrees.
>
> If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost of Euro 80 thousand per year.
> > Henk

The Domino effect will be a major problem for climate action. Countries will say "if THEY don't do their fair share, why should we?". Everyone is looking for a cop-out to avoid cutting emissions. Just look at the carbon trading farce.

On 7/4/2023 3:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Tuesday, 4 July 2023 at 19:59:48 UTC+1, HT wrote:
>>> No serious measures will be taken unless, and until, the effects of global warming are clearly seen to be harming people's lives. That could be too late, I have no idea. Andy does, though, and will tell us. I can't wait.
>> I'm not optimistic. In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion, among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It is expected that this investment will reduce global warming by 0,000036 degrees.
>>
>> If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost of Euro 80 thousand per year.
>>> Henk
>
> The Domino effect will be a major problem for climate action. Countries will say "if THEY don't do their fair share, why should we?". Everyone is looking for a cop-out to avoid cutting emissions. Just look at the carbon trading farce.

What is predictable is that nations most negatively affected by global warming will want everyone (else) to pay for prevention and remediation. What is the correlation between countries' production of CO2 per capita and wealth per capita? You can't expect a large poor country that pollutes a lot to sacrifice as much as a large rich nation that pollutes a lot, can you. OTOH, a large rich country will find it easier to pay and also has more to lose. I guess the means, the U.S. would really, really, like China and India for stop polluting. Good luck with that.

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 11:59:48 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> I'm not optimistic. In the Netherlands, we intend to invest EUR 28 billion, among other measures, to mitigate global warming. It is expected that this investment will reduce global warming by 0,000036 degrees.
>
> If the rest of the world doesn't do its share and we fail to reduce global warming by 1 degree, we will have wasted away 350.000 thousand life-years, at a cost of Euro 80 thousand per year.
>
> Henk
"It is expected..." -- interesting moment to shift to passive voice.
What's your confidence level in those estimates?

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 3:12:42 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 4. Juli 2023 um 10:13:14 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 1:04:49 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > it seems Dan was completely right
> > Isn't Dan always right? You know what
> > my name means in Hebrew, don't you? ;-)
>
> I didn't, but now I know:

Thanks! A little more knowledge never hurts.

> "And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath
> also heard my voice, and hath given me a son:
> therefore called she his name Dan. Genesis 29:34 (KJV)
>
> The Hebrew verb דין Deen (#1777) means "to judge"
> such as we can see in the verse above. This is the
> root of the name דן dan (#1835), meaning a "judge,"
> and is also found in the verse above. In Jacob’s final
> words to Dan he also makes the connection between
> these two words.
>
> Dan shall judge (deen) his people, as one of the
> tribes of Israel. Genesis 49:16 (KJV)"

Obviously this gives me some standing to review
and to critique Bibi's "judicial reform". ;-)

> https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/names/Dan.htm

Per BARD:

The Tribe of Dan was one of the twelve tribes of Israel,
according to the Torah. They were allocated a coastal
portion of land when the people of Israel entered the
Promised Land, later moving northwards.

The tribe of Dan was named after Dan, the fifth son of
Jacob and Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid. Dan's name means
"judge" or "he judged." In the Book of Genesis, Dan is said
to have been a fierce warrior who was known for his strength
and cunning. He was also a skilled judge, and he was often
called upon to settle disputes among his people.

After the Israelites entered the Promised Land, the tribe of Dan
was given a portion of land in the north-central region. However,
the Danites were not satisfied with this land, and they eventually
migrated northward to the area of modern-day Lebanon. There
they established their capital city of Dan, which became a major
trading center.

The tribe of Dan played an important role in the history of Israel.
They were known for their military prowess, and they were often
called upon to defend the other tribes from their enemies. They
were also known for their cunning and their ability to adapt to
new situations.

The tribe of Dan disappeared from history after the Assyrian
conquest of Israel in 721 BC. However, some scholars believe
that the Danites may have migrated to Europe, where they became
the ancestors of the Danes.

Here are some of the notable members of the Tribe of Dan:

* Samson: A judge who was known for his strength and his
ability to defeat the Philistines.
* Micah: A prophet who lived in the 8th century BC. He is known
for his condemnation of social injustice and his call for social reform.
* Amasa: A general who served in the army of King David. He
was killed by Joab, David's nephew, in a dispute over the throne.

The Tribe of Dan is a fascinating and important part of the history of
Israel. Their story is one of courage, determination, and resilience.
They played a significant role in the development of the Israelite
nation, and their legacy continues to this day.

> > > when he said that Andy deliberately
> > > suppresses facts -
> >
> > I don't believe Andy even reaches the
> > point of suppressing facts. He merely
> > ignores them.
>
> Well yes, I guess you are right - it kind of seems
> to me though, that he is not consciously ignoring
> them, it's almost as if he can't process them,
> because he's just too deep in the swamp...
>
> And this also kind of evokes images of the
> past in me; like, I imagine Jews trying to reason
> with the Nazis, and the Nazis... well... there was
> nothing to reason with anymore, you know?
>
> Try telling orthodox Muslims about how it's
> inhumane to practice the death penalty for
> apostasy... There is nothing to reason with
> anymore in these people... They can only
> do it themselves...

If memory serves, Christians also used to burn
poeple at stake for apostasy, including their own.
Check Jeanne d'Arc and Giordano Bruno.

Since the dawn of "humanity", killing people
one disagrees with has always been the most
expedient way of ending discussion.

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 9:04:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> Free public transportation? Perhaps in France. I don't
> see that happening over here. Our government needs
> every Euro it can lay its hands on.

Maybe switch back to the Guilder so you can mint as
many as you need? ;'-)

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 10:48:28 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> It has been reported (in MSM, even) that Yassir Arafat's net worth
> was in excess of a billion dollars at the time of his death. Mahmoud
> Abbas' net worth is estimated to be in excess of $100 million. A piker
> compared to Arafat. Benjamin Netanyahu's net worth has been reported
> to be around $13 million. An amateur.

Just a junior pickpocket. ;-)

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> The next logical step to transferring travel to trains
> would be to heavily subsidise the cost of the tickets.

Nope. Make travel free.

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 8:39:08 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> I have no idea what the current popularity of the
> French railway is and what the costs of a ticket are."
>

Simple: people who must travel but
cannot afford flight or bus tickets
take the train.

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 8:24:29 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>
> France of course has a superlative railway system.
>

France has superlative everything. Even the cheese
is better in France than in the Netherlands! ;-)

Vive la France!

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 3:20:49 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 12:17:14 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > I did not talk about "violence".
> > I said if you "smack" me, I will
> > "smack" you back 10x harder.
>
> that's talking about violence, period.

The strict literalist strikes again.
We've had this discussion already
about the colloquial use of "hate" as
in "hating sushi" or "hating beer". You
are a Neanderthal who assumes every
word has exactly one meaning without
regard to context, and the most extreme
physical meaning at that. We can smack
you in writing, can't we?

And before I forget, I hate Neanderthals!

dk

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 1:31:28 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 10:13:14 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 1:04:49 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > it seems Dan was completely right
> > Isn't Dan always right? You know what
> > my name means in Hebrew, don't you? ;-)
>
> Yes, by all means praise yourself in the third person.

Waste of time. One can always
praise oneself in the first. Learn
from Donny! ;-)

dk