https://youtu.be/uhx7guitv70

Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 10:13:04 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> https://youtu.be/uhx7guitv70

Brubeck is one of those jazz pianists who don't act like a jazz pianist. There is a refreshing absence of the usual tricks and routines that take all the music out of jazz.

Henk

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 8:44:24 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 10:13:04 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> > https://youtu.be/uhx7guitv70
>
> Brubeck is one of those jazz pianists who don't act like a jazz pianist. There is a refreshing absence of the usual tricks and routines that take all the music out of jazz.
>
> Henk

It’s funny, many jazz “mavens” only grudgingly include Brubeck, probably because he’s more pre-arranged or pre-composed than the traditional jazzer (comparisons to Ellington, in some sense). Sometimes I like his musical content more than his playing, but that’s probably because he’s less of the “style over substance” type. Sometimes, in the classic quartet, I actually get the most pleasure from Paul Desmond’s playing….the guy never made an ugly noise, but it’s always interesting. Probably many competitors at the time resented the success of “Take Five” (“where’s MY top 40 hit?”). That is, everyone except Miles Davis, who certainly couldn’t have imagined “Kind of Blue” would have sold as it has for decade after decade.

Anyhow, I’d recommend for those who are allergic to the ‘tricks and routines” (I get it, but don’t feel that way with the best) to try some of two pianists who only started doing more solo work after long careers “accompanying” famous vocalists, Tommy Flanagan and Jimmy Rowles. Rowles had one of the most understated but incredibly rich font’s of harmonic imagination of any of them….once you get into it you’ll be smiling for a long time.

https://youtu.be/noe4k0sfxfY

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 13:44:24 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> Brubeck is one of those jazz pianists who don't act like a jazz pianist. There is a refreshing absence of the usual tricks and routines that take all the music out of jazz.
>
> Henk

I'm not sure what you mean about "the usual tricks and routines".......? Does this refer to improvisation? But if so, improvisation IS jazz. Maybe not all of it but certainly the heart of bebop and post bop.

Brubeck could play straight and improvise, like in this concert of standards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4KrMmhC6OM

I don't think much of his improvisations, he didn't take off like the best bebop improvisors, very much earth bound and rather mechanical.

Paul Desmond was better with Ed Bickert. Ed was one of the best jazz guitarists ever. Wonderful harmonic sense. Here you get all the musical subtleties missing with Brubeck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_QpCBq6uho

Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 16:09:05 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 13:44:24 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > Brubeck is one of those jazz pianists who don't act like a jazz pianist.. There is a refreshing absence of the usual tricks and routines that take all the music out of jazz.
> >
> > Henk
> I'm not sure what you mean about "the usual tricks and routines".......? Does this refer to improvisation? But if so, improvisation IS jazz. Maybe not all of it but certainly the heart of bebop and post bop.
>
> Brubeck could play straight and improvise, like in this concert of standards...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4KrMmhC6OM
>
> I don't think much of his improvisations, he didn't take off like the best bebop improvisors, very much earth bound and rather mechanical.
>
> Paul Desmond was better with Ed Bickert. Ed was one of the best jazz guitarists ever. Wonderful harmonic sense. Here you get all the musical subtleties missing with Brubeck.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_QpCBq6uho

Marcus Roberts and Ahron Diehl, for example, play (I don't know if they always do so) in a style that I described as "the usual tricks and routines". Regardless of what they play, it ultimately comes down to chords in the left and runs in the right hand, making whatever they play interchangeable with any other improvisation. The music gets lost in the process.

Perhaps, I should listen to more of Desmond's recordings. I'm not too enthusiastic about what I heard in your link.

PS. Maestro Horowitz, I have no problems with Tommy Flanagan. I like what he does. Rowles' piano sound makes it difficult for me to appreciate his music.

Henk

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 16:13:04 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> Marcus Roberts and Ahron Diehl, for example, play (I don't know if they always do so) in a style that I described as "the usual tricks and routines".. Regardless of what they play, it ultimately comes down to chords in the left and runs in the right hand, making whatever they play interchangeable with any other improvisation. The music gets lost in the process.
> Henk

Chords in the left and runs in the right became big in bebop. The trend setter there was Bud Powell. The right hand played what the front line saxes and trumpets did and then some. I wouldn't say the music gets lost - on the contrary it can be jazz at its most exciting. Do you listen to Keith Jarrett? I could listen to that guy forever......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV2KoswJLYA

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 11:13:04 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 16:09:05 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> > On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 13:44:24 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > > Brubeck is one of those jazz pianists who don't act like a jazz pianist. There is a refreshing absence of the usual tricks and routines that take all the music out of jazz.
> > >
> > > Henk
> > I'm not sure what you mean about "the usual tricks and routines".......? Does this refer to improvisation? But if so, improvisation IS jazz. Maybe not all of it but certainly the heart of bebop and post bop.
> >
> > Brubeck could play straight and improvise, like in this concert of standards...
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4KrMmhC6OM
> >
> > I don't think much of his improvisations, he didn't take off like the best bebop improvisors, very much earth bound and rather mechanical.
> >
> > Paul Desmond was better with Ed Bickert. Ed was one of the best jazz guitarists ever. Wonderful harmonic sense. Here you get all the musical subtleties missing with Brubeck.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_QpCBq6uho
> Marcus Roberts and Ahron Diehl, for example, play (I don't know if they always do so) in a style that I described as "the usual tricks and routines".. Regardless of what they play, it ultimately comes down to chords in the left and runs in the right hand, making whatever they play interchangeable with any other improvisation. The music gets lost in the process.
>
> Perhaps, I should listen to more of Desmond's recordings. I'm not too enthusiastic about what I heard in your link.
>
> PS. Maestro Horowitz, I have no problems with Tommy Flanagan. I like what he does. Rowles' piano sound makes it difficult for me to appreciate his music.
>
> Henk

Well, Rowles is not a “sound” guy anyhow, it’s an intimate whispering approach a lot of the time. In any case, sorry, not many youtube choices, and yep, a 5th generation off air VHS isn’t going to help much. I like him because he consistently throws tasty and unusual harmonies at you, but you still “hear” the tune underneath it all. But he takes a while to get into….I listed for years without much interest until I caught his wavelength. He made a very good solo Duke Ellington album, but I don’t know if it’s around or in print. He’s certainly not a virtuoso fire breather, but there’s always, for me, those pleasingly heavy handed guys like Earl Hines, Errol Garner or McCoy Tyner for those moods. Or somebody like Teddy Wilson for another “temperature” of music. He’s always within a pretty narrow “swing” box, yet I can listen to him all day because it’s so perfectly “pitched” at us.

Marcus Roberts? Hmm, never would have thought to think too much of him as a bellwether for any particular branch of jazz piano standards or trends, so I guess I’m not surprised that he’s formulaic. In any case, the great thing about jazz history, is, unless none of it does anything for you, there’s going to be something that appeals, and for all of us, it’s going to be personal. I just try to keep listening and keeping my mind open.

Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 17:44:27 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 16:13:04 UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > Marcus Roberts and Ahron Diehl, for example, play (I don't know if they always do so) in a style that I described as "the usual tricks and routines". Regardless of what they play, it ultimately comes down to chords in the left and runs in the right hand, making whatever they play interchangeable with any other improvisation. The music gets lost in the process.
> > Henk
>
> Chords in the left and runs in the right became big in bebop. The trend setter there was Bud Powell. The right hand played what the front line saxes and trumpets did and then some. I wouldn't say the music gets lost - on the contrary it can be jazz at its most exciting. Do you listen to Keith Jarrett? I could listen to that guy forever......
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV2KoswJLYA

I never heard one of Keith's recordings. His introduction (on the link you provided) was impressive. It was completely undone - again, IMHO - by what followed.

Thanks for mentioning bebop. I know now what to avoid.

Henk

Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 18:17:28 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:

> > I have no problems with Tommy Flanagan. I like what he does. Rowles' piano sound makes it difficult for me to appreciate his music.

> Marcus Roberts? Hmm, never would have thought to think too much of him as a bellwether for any particular branch of jazz piano standards or trends, so I guess I’m not surprised that he’s formulaic. In any case, the great thing about jazz history, is, unless none of it does anything for you, there’s going to be something that appeals, and for all of us, it’s going to be personal. I just try to keep listening and keeping my mind open.

Jazz certainly does something for me. Not all jazz. No bebop for me, so it seems. But all is fluid, certainly taste.

Henk

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 17:31:33 UTC+1, HT wrote:

> Thanks for mentioning bebop. I know now what to avoid.
>
> Henk

The thing about bebop is it starts to make sense when you keep the chord changes in your mind while you are listening to the solos. Because you know the changes you can enjoy the cleverness and creativity of the solos over those changes. It's not at all like classical music. When you start to improvise yourself you start to feel the joy of jazz. You're in a group that is collectively improvising over the same changes. It's "chamber music" but not of the classical kind.

In article <4adb4e05-0dd2-42f0-88a0-90f27435640cn@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>The thing about bebop is it starts to make sense when you keep the
>chord changes in your mind while you are listening to the solos.

This is basically an ostinato format, defining bebop per se.

(It is of course not only bebop that takes up ostinato as a structuring
device. Cf. e.g. Johnny Cash's iconic _Folsom Prison Blues_ --
from the same period as Charlie Parker.)

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 20:22:35 UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> This is basically an ostinato format, defining bebop per se.
>
> (It is of course not only bebop that takes up ostinato as a structuring
> device. Cf. e.g. Johnny Cash's iconic _Folsom Prison Blues_ --
> from the same period as Charlie Parker.)

I've never heard a jazz musician refer to a set of chord changes as an "ostinato". It's not the same in practical terms. You wouldn't normally have a 32 bar ostinato, but that's a common length of a jazz standard in AABA or ABAB form. Also ostinati can be varied but you wouldn't do that in jazz since all the musicians play off a common set of changes.

Folsom Prison Blues is a common 12 bar blues as played all the time in jazz.. Except it isn't. It's 11 bars long. You wouldn't do that in jazz - only blues singers depart from the 12 bar format. Guys like Robert Johnson played odd numbers of bars because they could and it hadn't become a tradition in the early days.

In article <5bedc6c6-c1c2-4974-a237-ce183f7d1b96n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I've never heard a jazz musician refer to a set of chord changes
>as an "ostinato".

Yes, well.

>It's not the same in practical terms. You wouldn't normally have
>a 32 bar ostinato, but that's a common length of a jazz standard
>in AABA or ABAB form. Also ostinati can be varied but you wouldn't
>do that in jazz since all the musicians play off a common set of
>changes.

Long-form ostinato was one structuring device of Franco-Flemish
polyphony. There's a lot more history & variety there than within
the "classical" style per se. Also, there's a lot more to "jazz"
now than stopping at 1950s styles.

>You wouldn't do that in jazz - only blues singers depart from the
>12 bar format.

Like I just said....

I mean, I guess I remember this conversation from before.... You're
certainly entitled to like what you like, but when you rule out
most contemporary jazz musicians as being jazz at all, I don't feel
there's much more to say....

In article <u8f54v$b35$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:
>In article <5bedc6c6-c1c2-4974-a237-ce183f7d1b96n@googlegroups.com>,
>Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I've never heard a jazz musician refer to a set of chord changes
>>as an "ostinato".
>Yes, well.

Or perhaps, given that this seems to have been a previous
misunderstanding, I should elaborate. I'm not trying to give an
"insider's view" of bebop. Obviously that's more you (although
note also how you slide into equating it with "jazz" in sum...).

Rather, I'm contextualizing bebop both technically & within the
mid-20th century. Especially given the context of this exchange,
i.e. people expressing dismay at bebop, perhaps some context is
helpful. And then my perspective is always on contemporary music
making. Studying history is something I appreciate, but I want to
put it at the service of what's happening now....

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 21:26:11 UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

> I mean, I guess I remember this conversation from before.... You're
> certainly entitled to like what you like, but when you rule out
> most contemporary jazz musicians as being jazz at all, I don't feel
> there's much more to say....

No - I wouldn't say that contemporary jazz musicians aren't jazz, that's not something I'd say.

I might have not liked whatever musicians you might have mentioned, but that's the way it goes.

I've played quite a few free jazz gigs in my time, e.g. with John Stevens, though they weren't my typical gigs. .

In article <0f5ea375-7914-46d6-88d3-adfea9791389n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I might have not liked whatever musicians you might have mentioned,
>but that's the way it goes.

Did you check out Tyshawn Sorey's new trio that I mentioned over
in your 2nd WAYLTL thread on jazz piano...?

It's actually a followup to this album of standards:
https://tyshawn-sorey.bandcamp.com/album/mesmerism

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 03:00:24 UTC+10, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 9 juli 2023 om 18:17:28 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:
> > > I have no problems with Tommy Flanagan. I like what he does. Rowles' piano sound makes it difficult for me to appreciate his music.
> > Marcus Roberts? Hmm, never would have thought to think too much of him as a bellwether for any particular branch of jazz piano standards or trends, so I guess I’m not surprised that he’s formulaic. In any case, the great thing about jazz history, is, unless none of it does anything for you, there’s going to be something that appeals, and for all of us, it’s going to be personal. I just try to keep listening and keeping my mind open.
> Jazz certainly does something for me. Not all jazz. No bebop for me, so it seems. But all is fluid, certainly taste.
>
> Henk

Bebop is a style of a certain period (40s-50s). For me it evokes the time of its duration, and hence important. Not the prettiest jazz, fast and quite academic, but you had to be very good to even live with the likes of Parker. Miles survived, but only just, before he went on to create his own music.. Powell was the greatest bop pianist to my ears.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 23:47:52 UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Did you check out Tyshawn Sorey's new trio that I mentioned over
> in your 2nd WAYLTL thread on jazz piano...?
>
> It's actually a followup to this album of standards:
> https://tyshawn-sorey.bandcamp.com/album/mesmerism

I completely understand that Tyshawn Sorey has a big following. Very American - a harder style with a lot of energy.

It's just not my thing - I like lyrical players. I don't even like high energy classical performances. It's just a personal thing.

Here's a contemporary pianist I like, for instance. He plays with charm and a sensitive and flexible touch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7frrmFa5l8c

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 6:47:52 PM UTC-4, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <0f5ea375-7914-46d6...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andy Evans <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I might have not liked whatever musicians you might have mentioned,
> >but that's the way it goes.
> Did you check out Tyshawn Sorey's new trio that I mentioned over
> in your 2nd WAYLTL thread on jazz piano...?
>
> It's actually a followup to this album of standards:
> https://tyshawn-sorey.bandcamp.com/album/mesmerism

This discussion reminds me of a funny, out of place (imho), inadvertent “crossover” moment last season with the Houston Symphony. As part of a regular subscription concert a pianist named Conrad Tao (a last minute sub) played the Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1. It was a rather fitful, spastic version, seemingly out to show a “modernist” lurking underneath the bones of the old warhorse. Music director Juraj Valčuha called the program “Riots and Scandals” and Stravinsky’s Sacre was on board. Well, a riot from Valčuha almost ensued when Tao asked the stage crew to put a vocal mic out for his encore, which unbeknownst to the music director, and to the surprise to the audience, turned out to be Billy Strayhorn’s “Lush Life”, which Tao crooned (rather badly) over some overactive pianistic machinations. Tao didn’t clear this with anyone, and reports were that Valčuha was furious. A tempest in a teapot? I dunno….It could have been perfectly fine with just an instrumental version, but the vocal put it, for me, in a definite “wtf is this” head scratching mode. Wave of the future? I hope the next perpetrator of this kind of thing takes a few more “can belto” lessons before doing so!

On Sunday, 9 July 2023 at 23:54:43 UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> Bebop is a style of a certain period (40s-50s). For me it evokes the time of its duration, and hence important. Not the prettiest jazz, fast and quite academic, but you had to be very good to even live with the likes of Parker. Miles survived, but only just, before he went on to create his own music. Powell was the greatest bop pianist to my ears.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

I think bebop or "post bop" is very much still alive. A hell of a lot of improvisers still use typical bop lines.

A large number of more recent jazz musicians changed the direction of jazz, though. Mid and late Coltrane, electric Miles, Weather Report, ECM artists of various kinds, Pat Metheny and the fusion guys, pianists like Brad Mehldau...... Lots of different styles. Plus quite a few musicians were never mainstream bop players even though they played in the same period - guys like Thelonious Monk, Ahmad Jamal, Cecil Taylor, George Shearing etc etc.

In article <92ccf652-c5df-44d5-a919-30ee0f26180dn@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I completely understand that Tyshawn Sorey has a big following.
>Very American - a harder style with a lot of energy. It's just
>not my thing - I like lyrical players.

I can only say that this is a bewildering response. Oh well.

In article <c3e5178a-3847-4112-9edb-9b9a43277de3n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think bebop or "post bop" is very much still alive. A hell of a
>lot of improvisers still use typical bop lines.

Yes, Charlie Parker was very influential. There're subgenres too,
hard bop, soft bop, etc. etc.

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 00:09:26 UTC+1, vhorowitz wrote:

> This discussion reminds me of a funny, out of place (imho), inadvertent “crossover” moment last season with the Houston Symphony. Well, a riot from Valčuha almost ensued when Tao asked the stage crew to put a vocal mic out for his encore, which unbeknownst to the music director, and to the surprise to the audience, turned out to be Billy Strayhorn’s “Lush Life”, which Tao crooned (rather badly) over some overactive pianistic machinations. Tao didn’t clear this with anyone, and reports were that Valčuha was furious. A tempest in a teapot? I dunno….It could have been perfectly fine with just an instrumental version, but the vocal put it, for me, in a definite “wtf is this” head scratching mode. Wave of the future? I hope the next perpetrator of this kind of thing takes a few more “can belto” lessons before doing so!>

Hey - Lush Life has some of the best lyrics in all jazz, just sublime. Maybe because of that some non-singers used to sing it on gigs. By far my favourite version is by saxist Clifford Jordan. And not without a sharp sense of humour. "A week in Paris might ease the bite of it...." becomes "A week in Baltimore....". The track is on "Live At Ethels" but alas I can't find it on YT.

Here's the lyrics: https://www.songlyrics.com/billy-strayhorn/lush-life-lyrics/

Reference in this thread to Cash /Folsom Prison brought these to mind ---

metal example -- Black Sabbath studio ver of Wheels of Confusion
country /blues example -- live ver of Cowboy Junkies cover of Robert Johnson's Me and the Devil Blues

I thought if these as examples of a "ground" but need to google distinction /overlap with ostinato.

In article <74d723af-a9b6-4753-a280-619e9bf54568n@googlegroups.com>,
number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I thought if these as examples of a "ground" but need to google
>distinction /overlap with ostinato.

An ostinato need not be in the ground/lowest part.... (Although
that fits the start of bebop.)

Bassist William Parker has a story he calls "the bebop look" (& a
compostion by that title) about senior players who turned and gave
him *that look* sometimes when he was young.... Says Parker in
response "the changes can come from anywhere at any time."