On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 7:25:31 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 00:09:26 UTC+1, vhorowitz wrote:
>
> > This discussion reminds me of a funny, out of place (imho), inadvertent “crossover” moment last season with the Houston Symphony. Well, a riot from Valčuha almost ensued when Tao asked the stage crew to put a vocal mic out for his encore, which unbeknownst to the music director, and to the surprise to the audience, turned out to be Billy Strayhorn’s “Lush Life”, which Tao crooned (rather badly) over some overactive pianistic machinations. Tao didn’t clear this with anyone, and reports were that Valčuha was furious. A tempest in a teapot? I dunno….It could have been perfectly fine with just an instrumental version, but the vocal put it, for me, in a definite “wtf is this” head scratching mode. Wave of the future? I hope the next perpetrator of this kind of thing takes a few more “can belto” lessons before doing so!>
>
> Hey - Lush Life has some of the best lyrics in all jazz, just sublime. Maybe because of that some non-singers used to sing it on gigs. By far my favourite version is by saxist Clifford Jordan. And not without a sharp sense of humour. "A week in Paris might ease the bite of it...." becomes "A week in Baltimore....". The track is on "Live At Ethels" but alas I can't find it on YT.
>
> Here's the lyrics: https://www.songlyrics.com/billy-strayhorn/lush-life-lyrics/

For sure….no argument from me about Lush Life! But it seemed out of place in this context, where it just popped up out of place with no meaningful function in the program.

I would have no problem mixing Jazz into our ossified concert programming, and let’s be real now….if we’re trying to showcase diversity and you’re talking American music, to ignore Jazz is to truly to be missing the point…..no offense to those welcoming the discovery of Florence Price’s works, but there’s great American music by African Americans, and that ain’t it! BUT, the big but, is how to do that? So many of the arrangements that show up on pops concerts involving full symphony orchestras are simply horrible, and do no service to anyone. So called Third stream music had its heart in the right place, and with the right performers, can be of interest, but it’s a dead end when the listener doesn’t know where it’s coming from, and the composer makes a gimmick out of it. Seems to me, a few of the composers drawing upon rock and roll have found better and more subtle ways to integrate it, but that’s a tough path as well.

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 09:51:38 UTC+10, vhorowitz wrote:
> On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 7:25:31 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 00:09:26 UTC+1, vhorowitz wrote:
> >
> > > This discussion reminds me of a funny, out of place (imho), inadvertent “crossover” moment last season with the Houston Symphony.. Well, a riot from Valčuha almost ensued when Tao asked the stage crew to put a vocal mic out for his encore, which unbeknownst to the music director, and to the surprise to the audience, turned out to be Billy Strayhorn’s “Lush Life”, which Tao crooned (rather badly) over some overactive pianistic machinations. Tao didn’t clear this with anyone, and reports were that Valčuha was furious. A tempest in a teapot? I dunno….It could have been perfectly fine with just an instrumental version, but the vocal put it, for me, in a definite “wtf is this” head scratching mode. Wave of the future? I hope the next perpetrator of this kind of thing takes a few more “can belto” lessons before doing so!>
> >
> > Hey - Lush Life has some of the best lyrics in all jazz, just sublime. Maybe because of that some non-singers used to sing it on gigs. By far my favourite version is by saxist Clifford Jordan. And not without a sharp sense of humour. "A week in Paris might ease the bite of it...." becomes "A week in Baltimore....". The track is on "Live At Ethels" but alas I can't find it on YT.
> >
> > Here's the lyrics: https://www.songlyrics.com/billy-strayhorn/lush-life-lyrics/
> For sure….no argument from me about Lush Life! But it seemed out of place in this context, where it just popped up out of place with no meaningful function in the program.
>
> I would have no problem mixing Jazz into our ossified concert programming, and let’s be real now….if we’re trying to showcase diversity and you’re talking American music, to ignore Jazz is to truly to be missing the point…..no offense to those welcoming the discovery of Florence Price’s works, but there’s great American music by African Americans, and that ain’t it! BUT, the big but, is how to do that? So many of the arrangements that show up on pops concerts involving full symphony orchestras are simply horrible, and do no service to anyone. So called Third stream music had its heart in the right place, and with the right performers, can be of interest, but it’s a dead end when the listener doesn’t know where it’s coming from, and the composer makes a gimmick out of it. Seems to me, a few of the composers drawing upon rock and roll have found better and more subtle ways to integrate it, but that’s a tough path as well.

They should all keep to their path. It is no use trying to accomodate or compromise music to fit audience taste. Maybe a few string quartets could lead the way, by incorporating a few non classical works in their programs. I don't see orchestras being able to do so, unless it involves film music or show music.

Ray Hall, Taree

In article <a7dfde3f-5fac-45bc-9d90-8acb45c04fbfn@googlegroups.com>,
vhorowitz <vladhorowitz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>So called Third stream music had its heart in the right place, and
>with the right performers, can be of interest, but it's a dead end
>when the listener doesn't know where it's coming from, and the
>composer makes a gimmick out of it.

Not sure why you had to add that last part....

But as mentioned recently in another thread, in the realm of what
we call "new music" today, these different styles are largely
mingled. (Crossover has crossed over, as Number 6 put it there.)
As Ray just suggested though, one hears a lot more of this out of
various chamber groups than from full orchestras.

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 4:38:45 PM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <74d723af-a9b6-4753...@googlegroups.com>,
> number_six wrote:
> >I thought if these as examples of a "ground" but need to google
> >distinction /overlap with ostinato.
> An ostinato need not be in the ground/lowest part.... (Although
> that fits the start of bebop.)
>
> Bassist William Parker has a story he calls "the bebop look" (& a
> compostion by that title) about senior players who turned and gave
> him *that look* sometimes when he was young.... Says Parker in
> response "the changes can come from anywhere at any time."

Even an iconoclast needs an establishment to tilt against.

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 00:51:38 UTC+1, vhorowitz wrote:

> I would have no problem mixing Jazz into our ossified concert programming, and let’s be real now….if we’re trying to showcase diversity and you’re talking American music, to ignore Jazz is to truly to be missing the point…..BUT, the big but, is how to do that? So many of the arrangements that show up on pops concerts involving full symphony orchestras are simply horrible, and do no service to anyone. So called Third stream music had its heart in the right place, and with the right performers, can be of interest, but it’s a dead end when the listener doesn’t know where it’s coming from, and the composer makes a gimmick out of it. Seems to me, a few of the composers drawing upon rock and roll have found better and more subtle ways to integrate it, but that’s a tough path as well.>

Classical and jazz are just too different - jazz is based on improvisation and classical isn't. The high points of "symphonic" jazz or at least jazz for larger ensembles were the scores of Ellington and the better big bands, Gil Evans particularly with Miles Davis, and really good composer/arrangers like Claus Ogerman who I've mentioned a few times on this ng. He was particularly good at writing for strings. In all these cases the orchestrations supported the improvising soloists.

It's no secret that jazz and rock musicians, particularly those with classical training, want to use a wide palette of sounds in their arrangements. But time has moved on and these days most do it electronically with software instruments and synthesisers. Joe Zawinul was an early pioneer with Weather Report and as a classically trained musician he described the liberating feeling of being able to play proper orchestrations with more evolved electronic keyboards like the Fairlight in 1979.

So if you're looking for acoustic "orchestrations" these days you may be looking in the wrong place.

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 00:13:43 UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <92ccf652-c5df-44d5...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andy Evans <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I completely understand that Tyshawn Sorey has a big following.
> >Very American - a harder style with a lot of energy. It's just
> >not my thing - I like lyrical players.
> I can only say that this is a bewildering response. Oh well.

I'm surprised to find myself in disagreement with you - you're a great contributor to this ng and I thoroughly admire your championing of new music. I've always considered you to be one of the good guys here!

I read several posts praising Tyshawn Sorey on Audio Asylum and I've listened to his trio quite a few times. It just does nothing for me. I admire him as a drummer - he's inventive and keeps your attention. I don't like the pianist so the sum total doesn't work for me. But clearly it works for others. I do think it's a style of playing which is current on the US club scene.. I've heard a number of other trios which had energy but for my personal taste were too cerebral and mechanical (e.g. Noah Haidu) and lacked the sheer musicality of guys like Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett. I prefer a few of the European pianists like Thierry Elias in particular. France is good for pianists, both classical and jazz.

In article <e2827252-f9ee-4475-a366-8cae310e9cc3n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I read several posts praising Tyshawn Sorey on Audio Asylum and
>I've listened to his trio quite a few times. It just does nothing
>for me.

Whether you like it or not, to respond that you prefer lyrical
albums is what I found so bizarre.

In article <e2827252-f9ee-4475-a366-8cae310e9cc3n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I read several posts praising Tyshawn Sorey on Audio Asylum and
>I've listened to his trio quite a few times. It just does nothing
>for me. I admire him as a drummer - he's inventive and keeps your
>attention. I don't like the pianist so the sum total doesn't work
>for me. But clearly it works for others. I do think it's a style
>of playing which is current on the US club scene. I've heard a
>number of other trios which had energy but for my personal taste
>were too cerebral and mechanical (e.g. Noah Haidu) and lacked the
>sheer musicality of guys like Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett.

The more I read this, the harder I find it to believe we're talking
about the same music. Are you sure you're not talking about Sorey's
trios with pianist Corey Smythe rather than the trios with jazz
pianist Aaron Diehl? (Smythe is good too, but totally different
style, and not someone I'd expect you to enjoy. I don't think they
play Xenakis in any US club scenes, though.)

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 17:48:04 UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Are you sure you're not talking about Sorey's
> trios with pianist Corey Smythe rather than the trios with jazz
> pianist Aaron Diehl? >

Aaron Diehl or Vijay Iyer - just not my thing.

Didn't find anything with Smythe

In article <f60995e9-129c-42be-908b-8d44ccc374d5n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>Aaron Diehl or Vijay Iyer - just not my thing.
>Didn't find anything with Smythe

Huh, OK. Smythe is more of a "classical avant garde" pianist --
plays e.g. Xenakis, as I alluded. I think he's been the pianist
for Sorey most often. Iyer is quite popular, but not a "classic
jazz" style... influenced by club music & other newer popular styles.
(Sorey has more often been dummer on Iyer albums than the other way
around, I think....) Diehl is a jazz pianist who went to Juilliard,
toured with Marsalis, etc. His hallmarks are lyricism & touch.
(Smythe is the only one I follow at all outside this context....)

On Monday, 10 July 2023 at 18:05:55 UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Huh, OK. Smythe is more of a "classical avant garde" pianist --
> plays e.g. Xenakis, as I alluded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvh9--iaCdU

You might like this - I did. Shai Maestro Quartet