The movie isn't out yet, but it's a big item on NBC news.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bradley-cooper-prosthetic-nose-leonard-bernstein-maestro-jewface-rcna100137

I'm not Jewish, but I would think that Bernstein himself would feel
more offended by the summary of his life in the second paragraph. He
gets smaller billing than Bradley Cooper, who portrays him:

"The biographical romance, which [Bradley} Cooper co-wrote, produced
and directed, tells the story of Bernstein, who famously co-created
"West Side Story," with a focus on the composer's 25-year marriage to
Felicia Montealegre."

"who famously co-created "West Side Story"

That was the extent of his career? Dang! I could've sworn he was
famous for a bit more than that!

-Owen

P.S. Now all he'll be known for is his nose.

-O

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 6:32:41 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> The movie isn't out yet, but it's a big item on NBC news.
>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bradley-cooper-prosthetic-nose-leonard-bernstein-maestro-jewface-rcna100137
>
>
> I'm not Jewish, but I would think that Bernstein himself would feel
> more offended by the summary of his life in the second paragraph. He
> gets smaller billing than Bradley Cooper, who portrays him:
>
> "The biographical romance, which [Bradley} Cooper co-wrote, produced
> and directed, tells the story of Bernstein, who famously co-created
> "West Side Story," with a focus on the composer's 25-year marriage to
> Felicia Montealegre."
>
> "who famously co-created "West Side Story"
>
> That was the extent of his career? Dang! I could've sworn he was
> famous for a bit more than that!
>
> -Owen
>
> P.S. Now all he'll be known for is his nose.
>
> -O

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/InD6JcuxE80

On 8/16/2023 9:32 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> The movie isn't out yet, but it's a big item on NBC news.
>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bradley-cooper-prosthetic-nose-leonard-bernstein-maestro-jewface-rcna100137
>
> I'm not Jewish, but I would think that Bernstein himself would feel more offended by the summary of his life in the second paragraph. He gets smaller billing than Bradley Cooper, who portrays him:
>
> "The biographical romance, which [Bradley} Cooper co-wrote, produced and directed, tells the story of Bernstein, who famously co-created "West Side Story," with a focus on the composer's 25-year marriage to Felicia Montealegre."
>
> "who famously co-created "West Side Story"
>
> That was the extent of his career? Dang!  I could've sworn he was famous for a bit more than that!
>
> -Owen
>
> P.S.  Now all he'll be known for is his nose.
>
> -O
>

I would like to have been in the meeting in which the writers, producers, director, actors decided to give Cooper a considerable larger nose that Bernstein himself had. I don't think for a second that any of these people were antisemitic, but why would they do that? A character playing Fanny Brice has to have physical defect, whether the nose, a la Streisand, or the teeth, a la Mimi Hines or the weight, a la Beanie Feldstein. I don't know what defects the other actresses playing Brice had. These defects were sort of integral to the story. I don't recall Bernstein's nose ever having been an issue. Strange.

On Thursday, 17 August 2023 at 12:42:15 UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/16/2023 9:32 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> > The movie isn't out yet, but it's a big item on NBC news.
> >
> > https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bradley-cooper-prosthetic-nose-leonard-bernstein-maestro-jewface-rcna100137
> >
> > I'm not Jewish, but I would think that Bernstein himself would feel more offended by the summary of his life in the second paragraph. He gets smaller billing than Bradley Cooper, who portrays him:
> >
> > "The biographical romance, which [Bradley} Cooper co-wrote, produced and directed, tells the story of Bernstein, who famously co-created "West Side Story," with a focus on the composer's 25-year marriage to Felicia Montealegre."
> >
> > "who famously co-created "West Side Story"
> >
> > That was the extent of his career? Dang! I could've sworn he was famous for a bit more than that!
> >
> > -Owen
> >
> > P.S. Now all he'll be known for is his nose.
> >
> > -O
> >
> I would like to have been in the meeting in which the writers, producers, director, actors decided to give Cooper a considerable larger nose that Bernstein himself had. I don't think for a second that any of these people were antisemitic, but why would they do that? A character playing Fanny Brice has to have physical defect, whether the nose, a la Streisand, or the teeth, a la Mimi Hines or the weight, a la Beanie Feldstein. I don't know what defects the other actresses playing Brice had. These defects were sort of integral to the story. I don't recall Bernstein's nose ever having been an issue. Strange.

It is simply, in my opinion, an attempt to increase the likeness of an actor to the part he/she is playing. As for instance, when Charlize Theron played Aileen Wuornos (protuding teeth) in Monster, or when Woody Harrelson played LBJ (prominent chin), or De Niro playing Jake Le Motta in Raging Bull. There are 100s of instances where actors appearances are altered to play a certain part, so I really don't think this characterisation of Bernstein should be made any sort of a deal. Presumably included was his accent also (Brooklyn??), in order to characterise the part more accurately.

Ray Hall, Taree

I value Bernstein for West Side Story and his educational videos. I dislike his approach to conducting - I'm firmly in the Boulez camp. Consequently I can't think of any of his recordings I'd choose in preference to other conductors

As for the film, I have no interest because:
1. It's American. If you want any art in your films go to Europe or Asia.
2. Films about musicians made by non-musicians are generally dreadful

That's it, really.

In article <6e540ba2-353d-480d-949b-dc6f96ee36cdn@googlegroups.com>,
raymond....@gmail.com <raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com> wrote:
>It is simply, in my opinion, an attempt to increase the likeness
>of an actor to the part he/she is playing.

If the likeness is important, one can cast a different actor. In
this case, obviously that wasn't happening, since it was this guy's
project a priori. And he wrote it such that he needed a bigger
nose? It doesn't add up to me. I think it's a dumb decision.

(As far as actually watching the movie, of course I won't be doing
that. :-) )

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 12:42:15 PM UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:

> I would like to have been in the meeting in which the writers, producers, director, actors decided to give Cooper a considerable larger nose that Bernstein himself had. I don't think for a second that any of these people were antisemitic, but why would they do that? A character playing Fanny Brice has to have physical defect, whether the nose, a la Streisand, or the teeth, a la Mimi Hines or the weight, a la Beanie Feldstein. I don't know what defects the other actresses playing Brice had. These defects were sort of integral to the story. I don't recall Bernstein's nose ever having been an issue. Strange.

I don't know if you've ever seen the film of "Cyrano de Bergerac" with Gerard Depardieu, music by Jean-Claude Petit, but the person who created the schnozz got a special mention in the credits.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 9:18:48 AM UTC+2, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> 2. Films about musicians made by non-musicians are generally dreadful

In mass media, if Bernstein is mentioned at all, he is often mentioned as the West Side Story composer. I could imagine he would rather be remembered as a composer than as a sweaty conductor. But what do I know?
Great to see yet another antisemitism topic.

Can anyone think of any really good films about musicians?

I can only think of one that seemed to catch the actual reality of being a musician - Doggin' Around, with Elliott Gould as an ageing jazz pianist hired to tour a load of seedy clubs in Northern England - funny and full of wise cracks, with excellent support from the musicians of Ronnie Scott's band.. Well worth watching on YT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZck9mCbzdM&t=1s
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0127519/

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 9:02:23 AM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> Can anyone think of any really good films about musicians?
>

That Ken Russel film about Delius.

Re the nose, I can well imagine a meeting where they decided to give him a big schnoz - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting free PR.

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 10:00:32 AM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 9:02:23 AM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Can anyone think of any really good films about musicians?
> >
> That Ken Russel film about Delius.
>
> Re the nose, I can well imagine a meeting where they decided to give him a big schnoz - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting free PR.

Note also that the film is produced by at least one Jew in some sense of the term. Todd Phillips. So the decision about the prosthetic would not have been taken lightly!

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:00:32 AM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
>
>
> Re the nose, I can well imagine a meeting where they decided to give him a big schnoz - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting free PR.

When I think of Bernstein's physicality I see a lot of sweat, a paunch and this voice that in later years always sounds hungover. I mean I remember a rehearsal video where this clearly halfdrunk hungover LB is talking to a youth orchestra, all these fresh faces, and you can't help but think LB just didn't care. He was this demi-god.

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:11:56 AM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:00:32 AM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> >
> > Re the nose, I can well imagine a meeting where they decided to give him a big schnoz - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting free PR.
> When I think of Bernstein's physicality I see a lot of sweat, a paunch and this voice that in later years always sounds hungover.

Obviously the sweat was produced by his massive alcohol intake.

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 5:13:51 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:11:56 AM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:00:32 AM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Re the nose, I can well imagine a meeting where they decided to give him a big schnoz - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting free PR.
> > When I think of Bernstein's physicality I see a lot of sweat, a paunch and this voice that in later years always sounds hungover.
> Obviously the sweat was produced by his massive alcohol intake.

It seems he had a cancer of the lining tissues of several internal organs. The heavy smoking and alcohol consumption certainly contributed to the condition.

In this age of internet, where truths come to light about people and their day to day lives one thing becomes fairly obvious on a repeated basis - success does not guarantee happiness. LB had his musical act together, but his personal life was a complete mess.

On Thursday, 17 August 2023 at 11:11:57 UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:

LB had his musical act together, but his personal life was a complete mess....

As with hundreds and hundreds of genius artists - Beethoven and Van Gogh being the first to come to mind...

On 8/17/2023 3:37 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 12:42:15 PM UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> I would like to have been in the meeting in which the writers, producers, director, actors decided to give Cooper a considerable larger nose that Bernstein himself had. I don't think for a second that any of these people were antisemitic, but why would they do that? A character playing Fanny Brice has to have physical defect, whether the nose, a la Streisand, or the teeth, a la Mimi Hines or the weight, a la Beanie Feldstein. I don't know what defects the other actresses playing Brice had. These defects were sort of integral to the story. I don't recall Bernstein's nose ever having been an issue. Strange.
>
> I don't know if you've ever seen the film of "Cyrano de Bergerac" with Gerard Depardieu, music by Jean-Claude Petit, but the person who created the schnozz got a special mention in the credits.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Sure, but his nose was integral to the story. Bernstein's wasn't. Not having ever read anything about Bernstein's life, I don't know that his Jewishness played a major part even aside from the nose.

On 8/17/2023 5:00 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 9:02:23 AM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
>> Can anyone think of any really good films about musicians?
>>
>
> That Ken Russel film about Delius.
>
> Re the nose, I can well imagine a meeting where they decided to give him a big schnoz - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting free PR.

Well, that's one reason more than I was able to think of.

On 8/17/2023 6:22 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Thursday, 17 August 2023 at 11:11:57 UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> LB had his musical act together, but his personal life was a complete mess....
>
> As with hundreds and hundreds of genius artists - Beethoven and Van Gogh being the first to come to mind...

I read somewhere that child prodigies are often treated with deference by adults and not given the guidance that children need to develop properly.

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:14:00 PM UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/17/2023 3:37 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 12:42:15 PM UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> >> I would like to have been in the meeting in which the writers, producers, director, actors decided to give Cooper a considerable larger nose that Bernstein himself had. I don't think for a second that any of these people were antisemitic, but why would they do that? A character playing Fanny Brice has to have physical defect, whether the nose, a la Streisand, or the teeth, a la Mimi Hines or the weight, a la Beanie Feldstein. I don't know what defects the other actresses playing Brice had. These defects were sort of integral to the story. I don't recall Bernstein's nose ever having been an issue. Strange.
> >
> > I don't know if you've ever seen the film of "Cyrano de Bergerac" with Gerard Depardieu, music by Jean-Claude Petit, but the person who created the schnozz got a special mention in the credits.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> Sure, but his nose was integral to the story. Bernstein's wasn't. Not having ever read anything about Bernstein's life, I don't know that his Jewishness played a major part even aside from the nose.

I have never been entirely convinced by 'West Side Story' as an authentic portrait of Puerto Rican life. Especially when Maria comes out with "I Feel Pretty". Let's keep the boy Catholic and relocate the girl in Jewish Brooklyn. It worked for "Abie's Irish Rose", a show about intercommunal relations which held the record for the largest number of performances on Broadway until "My Fair Lady". There was a reference to it in Lorenz Hart's original lyrics for 'Manhattan":

"We'll take our babies
Along to Abie's Irish Rose,
We hope they live to see it close ... "

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 2023-08-17 08:02:19 +0000, Andy Evans said:

> Can anyone think of any really good films about musicians?
> I can only think of one that seemed to catch the actual reality of
> being a musician - Doggin' Around, with Elliott Gould as an ageing jazz
> pianist hired to tour a load of seedy clubs in Northern England - funny
> and full of wise cracks, with excellent support from the musicians of
> Ronnie Scott's band. Well worth watching on YT:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZck9mCbzdM&t=1s
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0127519/

Uh...? Amadeus? Mahler?

Mahler may not be anyone's cup of tea, but Amadeus is quite highly regarded.

Not considering accuracy, because anything Hollywood does, accuracy is
the first to go. I'm considering only "good films."

-Owne

On 8/17/23 8:13 AM, Frank Berger wrote:

> Not having ever read anything about Bernstein's life, I don't know
> that his Jewishness played a major part even aside from the nose.

It's safe to say the New York mid century classical music and Broadway
scene had Jewish influence. His work with the Israel Philharmonic and
the Mahler revival also have Jewish associations. His compositions
include a Kaddish symphony and a psalm setting in Hebrew.

https://forward.com/culture/477372/leonard-bernstein-jewishness-radical-chic-politics-bernsteins-wall-tirola/

"Early in his career — before he had a career, really — one of Leonard
Bernstein’s mentors suggested that such an obviously Jewish name would
never adorn the marquee at Carnegie Hall. Perhaps he could become
Leonard S. Burns instead?

Bernstein seriously contemplated the name change, he reveals in director
Douglas Tirola’s “Bernstein’s Wall,” a documentary now making the
festival rounds. But he decided he just couldn’t do it. Calling his
Jewishness both “a curse and a blessing,” Bernstein embraced his
heritage, traveling to Israel, incorporating Hebrew into his talks,
advocating for peace and civil rights. Of course, he also proved his
mentor dead wrong when he became music director of the New York
Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall."

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 4:50:22 PM UTC+2, mINE109 wrote:
> On 8/17/23 8:13 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > Not having ever read anything about Bernstein's life, I don't know
> > that his Jewishness played a major part even aside from the nose.
> It's safe to say the New York mid century classical music and Broadway
> scene had Jewish influence. His work with the Israel Philharmonic and
> the Mahler revival also have Jewish associations. His compositions
> include a Kaddish symphony and a psalm setting in Hebrew.
>
Yeah, composing a forty-minute symphony called Kaddish would provide a hint..
Also, performing the Mahler symphonies in Vienna, where orchestra members complained about Mahler's Scheisse Musik, was supposed to be part of a counter-antisemitism campaign. This stroy has been out and about for forty years..

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 10:47:04 AM UTC-4, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-08-17 08:02:19 +0000, Andy Evans said:
>
> > Can anyone think of any really good films about musicians?
> > I can only think of one that seemed to catch the actual reality of
> > being a musician - Doggin' Around, with Elliott Gould as an ageing jazz
> > pianist hired to tour a load of seedy clubs in Northern England - funny
> > and full of wise cracks, with excellent support from the musicians of
> > Ronnie Scott's band. Well worth watching on YT:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZck9mCbzdM&t=1s
> > https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0127519/
> Uh...? Amadeus? Mahler?
>
> Mahler may not be anyone's cup of tea, but Amadeus is quite highly regarded.
>
I know this is strange, but the recordings of Mahler I find most tolerable are the ones led by Boulez.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 7:42:15 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/16/2023 9:32 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> > The movie isn't out yet, but it's a big item on NBC news.
> >
> > https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bradley-cooper-prosthetic-nose-leonard-bernstein-maestro-jewface-rcna100137
> >
> > I'm not Jewish, but I would think that Bernstein himself would feel more offended by the summary of his life in the second paragraph. He gets smaller billing than Bradley Cooper, who portrays him:
> >
> > "The biographical romance, which [Bradley} Cooper co-wrote, produced and directed, tells the story of Bernstein, who famously co-created "West Side Story," with a focus on the composer's 25-year marriage to Felicia Montealegre."
> >
> > "who famously co-created "West Side Story"
> >
> > That was the extent of his career? Dang! I could've sworn he was famous for a bit more than that!
> >
> > -Owen
> >
> > P.S. Now all he'll be known for is his nose.
> >
> > -O
> >
> I would like to have been in the meeting in which the writers, producers, director, actors decided to give Cooper a considerable larger nose that Bernstein himself had. I don't think for a second that any of these people were antisemitic, but why would they do that? A character playing Fanny Brice has to have physical defect, whether the nose, a la Streisand, or the teeth, a la Mimi Hines or the weight, a la Beanie Feldstein. I don't know what defects the other actresses playing Brice had. These defects were sort of integral to the story. I don't recall Bernstein's nose ever having been an issue. Strange.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2023/08/17/bradley-cooper-nose-maestro/

In article <c4d85e42-b8c5-4803-ae64-840a5cf8a1f5n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
>... - anticipating the furore it would cause and the resulting
>free PR.

Probably the real reason, yeah... and seems to be working.