Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2023 um 21:39:49 UTC+2:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 20. Juni 2023 um 11:14:48 UTC+2:
> > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:42:38 PM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > > Kreisleriana and Mephisto are unbelivable
> > > https://www.youtube.com/@michieldpiano/videos
> > > any comment?
> > > Ciao
> > > C
> > Thanks for that. I'm listening to the Kreisleriana now, and it crossed my mind that you may enjoy Natan Brand's live performance too. I think both performances have free spirit vibes.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50hLgtpbH_M&t=3s&ab_channel=ThePianoFiles
> In response to my last post: A simpler abstract idea you will often recognize is a melody; it's also easier to recognize I guess... like Schumann in Tchaikovsy or sth... but not always, harmonically one can sense Chopin in Scriabin, Wagner in Debussy, Brahms and Wagner in early Schoenberg etc... Generally I guess melodies are easier to recognize, than harmonic ideas probably... especially if it gets as complex as Schoenberg.
>
> Not sure how either is musically defined actually...

Anyway I guess what I was trying to say was; Melody as an abstract idea you will recognize - even without similarities - easier than "developing variation".

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2023 um 21:39:49 UTC+2:
> Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 20. Juni 2023 um 11:14:48 UTC+2:
> > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:42:38 PM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > > Kreisleriana and Mephisto are unbelivable
> > > https://www.youtube.com/@michieldpiano/videos
> > > any comment?
> > > Ciao
> > > C
> > Thanks for that. I'm listening to the Kreisleriana now, and it crossed my mind that you may enjoy Natan Brand's live performance too. I think both performances have free spirit vibes.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50hLgtpbH_M&t=3s&ab_channel=ThePianoFiles
> In response to my last post: A simpler abstract idea you will often recognize is a melody; it's also easier to recognize I guess... like Schumann in Tchaikovsy or sth... but not always, harmonically one can sense Chopin in Scriabin, Wagner in Debussy, Brahms and Wagner in early Schoenberg etc... Generally I guess melodies are easier to recognize, than harmonic ideas probably... especially if it gets as complex as Schoenberg.
>
> Not sure how either is musically defined actually...

Also, melody and harmony are connected anyway... probably...

Il giorno mercoledì 21 giugno 2023 alle 23:30:02 UTC+2 Mandryka ha scritto:
> On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 10:23:53 AM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > Il giorno mercoledì 21 giugno 2023 alle 09:36:32 UTC+2 Mandryka ha scritto:
> > > On Tuesday, June 20, 2023 at 2:02:36 PM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > > > >Which is why I often enjoy female pianists in Schumann. They seem to have the right instinct for mixing sensitivity and charm within the architecture. A number of big name male pianists just don't get inside the many quirks in the music.
> > > > Do you know Maria Tipo op.13? It is fantastic.
> > > > On the other hand, I tend to prefer, also in Schumann, clean lines and textures... if I think to something feminine in Schumann (apart from Reine Gianoli) it comes to my mind the Fantasie of Maria Yudina. Not so clean, not so luminous, almost disturbing, that is a proper achievement with Schumann, but Pletnev and Fiorentino they fly higher.
> > > > C
> > > Tipo’s Schumann etudes are completely lost on me I’m afraid! Must be some sort of marmite I guess, or I must be deaf to her qualities on that recording.
> > "clean lines and textures": very bright example in MT op.13. As opposed to - let's say- Sofronitzky's.
> > C
> Yes and Margulis is “clear lines and textures” too - it’s not quite what I’m looking for really. Anyway, I’m now enjoying something completely different - Burkhard Schliessman’s Kreisleriana.

Where to find Burkhard Schliessman’s audio?
Thanks
C

On 6/22/2023 3:17 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 3:46:17 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>> Op donderdag 22 juni 2023 om 11:21:03 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
>>> I always provide links to listenable sound tracks.
>>
>> Agreed. Excellent directional signs. However, that
>> isn't the point. It's interesting to read that you believe
>> that sound production, touch, and articulation are not
>> a matter of taste.
>
> No, they are not a matter of taste. They are tools in a
> pianist's toolchain. How they are applied is a matter
> of interpretation, but not the tools themselves.
>
>> I'm looking forward to an objective hierarchy of winners
>> of the Tchaikovsky competition based on these criteria,
>> backed by facts. I'll fully understand if you don't have the
>> time for it, don't feel well enough, or don't have the sources
>> at hand, etc., etc.
>
> ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
> by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
> commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
> Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
> Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
> out yourself.
>
> dk

A Musicweb reviewer kind of panned Uehara's performance in a live Barbican concert from 2005 even more so De Burgos' conducting (same conductor as the recording).
Care to comment?

http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2005/Jan-Jun05/burgos2303.htm

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 1:21:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 6/22/2023 3:17 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
> > by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
> > commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
> > Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
> > Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
> > out yourself.
>
> A Musicweb reviewer kind of panned Uehara's performance
> in a live Barbican concert from 2005 even more so De Burgos'
> conducting (same conductor as the recording). Care to comment?
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2005/Jan-Jun05/burgos2303.htm

Any soloist can have a day off, so this is not meaningful by itself.

All of her performances I heard live, on record, or on YouTube
are superb.

Also note the topics under discussion were tone, touch, and
sound production, not interpretation. Anyone who cannot
make the distinction should not waste his/her/its time
listening to piano performance.

Regards

Op donderdag 22 juni 2023 om 21:17:20 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:

>> It's interesting to read that you believe
> > that sound production, touch, and articulation are not
> > a matter of taste.

> No, they are not a matter of taste. They are tools in a
> pianist's toolchain. How they are applied is a matter
> of interpretation, but not the tools themselves.

So,, the use that is made of those tools IS a matter of taste ...

> > I'm looking forward to an objective hierarchy of winners
> > of the Tchaikovsky competition based on these criteria,
> > backed by facts. I'll fully understand if you don't have the
> > time for it, don't feel well enough, or don't have the sources
> > at hand, etc., etc.

> ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
> by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
> commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
> Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
> Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
> out yourself.

You already answered my question. It is impossible. The piano itself is objective, the score, etc. but not the use that is made of them. Putting Pletnev, Sokolov and Van Cliburn at the top is purely a matter of taste - not expertise.

Henk

On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 1:46:36 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 22 juni 2023 om 21:17:20 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> >> It's interesting to read that you believe
> > > that sound production, touch, and articulation are not
> > > a matter of taste.
>
> > No, they are not a matter of taste. They are tools in a
> > pianist's toolchain. How they are applied is a matter
> > of interpretation, but not the tools themselves.
> So,, the use that is made of those tools IS a matter of taste ...
> > > I'm looking forward to an objective hierarchy of winners
> > > of the Tchaikovsky competition based on these criteria,
> > > backed by facts. I'll fully understand if you don't have the
> > > time for it, don't feel well enough, or don't have the sources
> > > at hand, etc., etc.
>
> > ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
> > by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
> > commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
> > Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
> > Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
> > out yourself.
>
> You already answered my question. It is impossible.

ROTFL !!! You really don't know what you are talking
about. A pianist that cannot play finger legato cannot
play finger legato, regardless of how they intend to
play. A pianist who cannot reach the pedals cannot
reach the pedals, no matter how high their heels.

> The piano itself is objective, the score, etc. but not
> the use that is made of them. Putting Pletnev, Sokolov
> and Van Cliburn at the top is purely a matter of taste -
> not expertise.

ROTFL !!!

dk

On 6/22/2023 4:46 PM, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 22 juni 2023 om 21:17:20 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
>
>>> It's interesting to read that you believe
>>> that sound production, touch, and articulation are not
>>> a matter of taste.
>
>> No, they are not a matter of taste. They are tools in a
>> pianist's toolchain. How they are applied is a matter
>> of interpretation, but not the tools themselves.
>
> So,, the use that is made of those tools IS a matter of taste ...
>
>>> I'm looking forward to an objective hierarchy of winners
>>> of the Tchaikovsky competition based on these criteria,
>>> backed by facts. I'll fully understand if you don't have the
>>> time for it, don't feel well enough, or don't have the sources
>>> at hand, etc., etc.
>
>> ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
>> by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
>> commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
>> Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
>> Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
>> out yourself.
>
> You already answered my question. It is impossible. The piano itself is objective, the score, etc. but not the use that is made of them. Putting Pletnev, Sokolov and Van Cliburn at the top is purely a matter of taste - not expertise.
>
> Henk
>

Suppose a poll of pianists or music critics or otherwise generally recognized music experts shows a high correlation of the best performance of, say, Tchaik PC1. Almost everybody mentions Richter, Sokolov, Pletnev, for example. How could this reflect simply a matter of taste? Now the results show little correlation across the reviewers, that may suggest you are right.

Regarding asking about criteria, facts, etc. My previously mentioned Philosophy of the Arts professor (and presumably others) would say you can compile a list of criteria for a piece of art. The experts here can do that for pianism, but the professor mentioned balance, form, use of color and other things with respect to painting. If one does not refer to these criteria, even implicitly, in evaluating a work of art, then one is simply exercising his taste. If one does, then one exercising an educated evaluation, which can be considered an objective exercise.

That's the theory, anyway. The simplest illustration is my total indifference to the Mona Lisa (or any number of other generally praised works of art). I don't like it, but I can accept that it is a great painting (because experts say so) nevertheless. It seems to me that it is perfectly possible for an expert to recognize the greatness of a work of art, but still not like it. You see this all the time in reviews. The reviewer praises this or that about the performance, but says it isn't his cup of tea.

This makes sense to me, though perhaps it is all mumbo jumbo. The semester I took this class I got 4 A's and a B. The B was in the Philosophy of the Arts class. I remember practically everything about that class, including a very cute girl who sat near me, but who I couldn't ask out (if I had the nerve) because I already had a girl friend (my wife of 54 years). I don't even remember what the other 4 classes were.

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2023 um 22:32:13 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 1:21:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 6/22/2023 3:17 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
> > > by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
> > > commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
> > > Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
> > > Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
> > > out yourself.
> >
> > A Musicweb reviewer kind of panned Uehara's performance
> > in a live Barbican concert from 2005 even more so De Burgos'
> > conducting (same conductor as the recording). Care to comment?
> >
> > http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2005/Jan-Jun05/burgos2303.htm
> Any soloist can have a day off, so this is not meaningful by itself.
>
> All of her performances I heard live, on record, or on YouTube
> are superb.
>
> Also note the topics under discussion were tone, touch, and
> sound production, not interpretation. Anyone who cannot
> make the distinction should not waste his/her/its time
> listening to piano performance.
>
> Regards

Regards... ;D

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2023 um 22:32:13 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 1:21:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 6/22/2023 3:17 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > ROTFL !!! There are tons of recordings and live performances
> > > by PITPC winners, both from the competition itself and from
> > > commercial recordings or live performances. Clearly Pletnev,
> > > Sokolov and Van Cliburn are at the top, followed by Ogdon,
> > > Ashkenazy and Ayako Uehara. You can probably figure them
> > > out yourself.
> >
> > A Musicweb reviewer kind of panned Uehara's performance
> > in a live Barbican concert from 2005 even more so De Burgos'
> > conducting (same conductor as the recording). Care to comment?
> >
> > http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2005/Jan-Jun05/burgos2303.htm
> Any soloist can have a day off, so this is not meaningful by itself.
>
> All of her performances I heard live, on record, or on YouTube
> are superb.
>
> Also note the topics under discussion were tone, touch, and
> sound production, not interpretation. Anyone who cannot
> make the distinction should not waste his/her/its time
> listening to piano performance.
>
> Regards

One should add that tone, touch and sound production are part of the interpretation...

Are you implying that Schnabel's interpretation 478 is up for debate? I would think if someone does not like it, they simply have bad taste...

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2023 um 21:42:39 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2023 um 21:39:49 UTC+2:
> > Mandryka schrieb am Dienstag, 20. Juni 2023 um 11:14:48 UTC+2:
> > > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:42:38 PM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > > > Kreisleriana and Mephisto are unbelivable
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/@michieldpiano/videos
> > > > any comment?
> > > > Ciao
> > > > C
> > > Thanks for that. I'm listening to the Kreisleriana now, and it crossed my mind that you may enjoy Natan Brand's live performance too. I think both performances have free spirit vibes.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50hLgtpbH_M&t=3s&ab_channel=ThePianoFiles
> > In response to my last post: A simpler abstract idea you will often recognize is a melody; it's also easier to recognize I guess... like Schumann in Tchaikovsy or sth... but not always, harmonically one can sense Chopin in Scriabin, Wagner in Debussy, Brahms and Wagner in early Schoenberg etc... Generally I guess melodies are easier to recognize, than harmonic ideas probably... especially if it gets as complex as Schoenberg.
> >
> > Not sure how either is musically defined actually...
> Anyway I guess what I was trying to say was; Melody as an abstract idea you will recognize - even without similarities - easier than "developing variation".

A melody is - I assume - generally easier to identify than a "developing variation".

To expand: If only one melody has ever been written (implying that your mind has not had the chance to understand patterns that make a melody a melody), and someone else wrote another melody and there was no word and definition for melody yet and this other guy (similar to what Schoenberg said about Brahms) felt impressed by the melody of the first composer and created his own melody, you would not "hear" the melody of the first composer in the melody of the latter... you would have to understand - instinctively or intellectually - what a melody is to "hear" a melody, or "hear" a developing variation.

-- Reminding myself and everyone that I am talking to an Arschloch - Howard - who was disappointed that 16-17yo girls would not perform nude in an opera.

> Yes and Margulis is “clear lines and textures” too - it’s not quite what I’m looking for really. Anyway, I’m now enjoying something completely different - Burkhard Schliessman’s Kreisleriana.

Checked his Schubert Liszt and Chopin op.23. Very generous pedaling, did not impressed me too much, to be honest.
There's something that confuses me, bewilding... Which is perhaps his expressive signature
Let's put it simple.. Lazar Berman plays on another league
C

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 9:30:47 AM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > Yes and Margulis is “clear lines and textures” too - it’s not quite what I’m looking for really. Anyway, I’m now enjoying something completely different - Burkhard Schliessman’s Kreisleriana.
> Checked his Schubert Liszt and Chopin op.23. Very generous pedaling, did not impressed me too much, to be honest.
> There's something that confuses me, bewilding... Which is perhaps his expressive signature
> Let's put it simple.. Lazar Berman plays on another league
> C

I've not head the Liszt or Chopin. A friend of mine enjoys the Liszt sonata I think. What's his Schubert? Or is that Schubert/Liszt!

Il giorno venerdì 23 giugno 2023 alle 11:00:41 UTC+2 Mandryka ha scritto:
> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 9:30:47 AM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > > Yes and Margulis is “clear lines and textures” too - it’s not quite what I’m looking for really. Anyway, I’m now enjoying something completely different - Burkhard Schliessman’s Kreisleriana.
> > Checked his Schubert Liszt and Chopin op.23. Very generous pedaling, did not impressed me too much, to be honest.
> > There's something that confuses me, bewilding... Which is perhaps his expressive signature
> > Let's put it simple.. Lazar Berman plays on another league
> > C
> I've not head the Liszt or Chopin. A friend of mine enjoys the Liszt sonata I think. What's his Schubert? Or is that Schubert/Liszt!

Schubert Liszt. Very delicate subject. Either you have the supreme control of Berman and Bolet and Babayan, or the abysmal visions of Sofronitzky.
His Chopin's ballade is a bit messy, fiery and flaming (I listen to Henri Barda for a stunning rendering in that sense) but a bit unrefined.
Curious about Kreisleriana but unavailable.
C

Op donderdag 22 juni 2023 om 23:14:01 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

> Suppose a poll of pianists or music critics or otherwise generally recognized music experts shows a high correlation of the best performance of, say, Tchaik PC1. Almost everybody mentions Richter, Sokolov, Pletnev, for example. How could this reflect simply a matter of taste? Now the results show little correlation across the reviewers, that may suggest you are right.

There may be intersubjective consensus. If we want objectivity, instruments would be needed, not juries.

> Regarding asking about criteria, facts, etc. My previously mentioned Philosophy of the Arts professor (and presumably others) would say you can compile a list of criteria for a piece of art. The experts here can do that for pianism, but the professor mentioned balance, form, use of color and other things with respect to painting. If one does not refer to these criteria, even implicitly, in evaluating a work of art, then one is simply exercising his taste. If one does, then one exercising an educated evaluation, which can be considered an objective exercise.

In piano competitions, members of the jury rank candidates based on a number of criteria. I’ve seen the rankings of the two most recent Chopin competitions. It is rare for members of the jury to have the same opinion about a candidate per criterion, even candidates they wish to be let through to the next round by majority.

> That's the theory, anyway. The simplest illustration is my total indifference to the Mona Lisa (or any number of other generally praised works of art). I don't like it, but I can accept that it is a great painting (because experts say so) nevertheless. It seems to me that it is perfectly possible for an expert to recognize the greatness of a work of art, but still not like it. You see this all the time in reviews. The reviewer praises this or that about the performance, but says it isn't his cup of tea.

Yes, there is a canon. Here in The Netherlands, we all appreciate Rembrandt.. We appreciate those Rembrandts that are said to be authentic. Authenticity is determined mainly based on external factors: paint, cloth, and wood. These days we have a reasonably stable canon. There is consensus. We are waiting for the next expert to announce that his/her colleagues were all wrong..

> This makes sense to me, though perhaps it is all mumbo jumbo. The semester I took this class I got 4 A's and a B. The B was in the Philosophy of the Arts class. I remember practically everything about that class, including a very cute girl who sat near me, but who I couldn't ask out (if I had the nerve) because I already had a girl friend (my wife of 54 years). I don't even remember what the other 4 classes were.

Who needs philosophy when you are sitting next to a cute girl?

Henk

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 2:30:34 AM UTC-7, CSX wrote:
>
> Schubert Liszt. Very delicate subject.
> Either you have the supreme control
> of Berman and Bolet and Babayan, or
> the abysmal visions of Sofronitzky.
>

https://youtu.be/D6qnli1ZbZQ

dk

On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 10:30:34 AM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> Il giorno venerdì 23 giugno 2023 alle 11:00:41 UTC+2 Mandryka ha scritto:
> > On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 9:30:47 AM UTC+1, CSX wrote:
> > > > Yes and Margulis is “clear lines and textures” too - it’s not quite what I’m looking for really. Anyway, I’m now enjoying something completely different - Burkhard Schliessman’s Kreisleriana.
> > > Checked his Schubert Liszt and Chopin op.23. Very generous pedaling, did not impressed me too much, to be honest.
> > > There's something that confuses me, bewilding... Which is perhaps his expressive signature
> > > Let's put it simple.. Lazar Berman plays on another league
> > > C
> > I've not head the Liszt or Chopin. A friend of mine enjoys the Liszt sonata I think. What's his Schubert? Or is that Schubert/Liszt!
> Schubert Liszt. Very delicate subject. Either you have the supreme control of Berman and Bolet and Babayan, or the abysmal visions of Sofronitzky.
> His Chopin's ballade is a bit messy, fiery and flaming (I listen to Henri Barda for a stunning rendering in that sense) but a bit unrefined.
> Curious about Kreisleriana but unavailable.
> C

Ah yes. In concert Simone Pedrone was enjoyable. He's made a recording, which I've not heard.

https://music.apple.com/dk/album/schubert-sonata-d-960-schubert-liszt/1570461528

On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 9:41:43 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 6:42:38 AM UTC-7, CSX wrote:
> >
> > Kreisleriana and Mephisto are unbelievable
> > https://www.youtube.com/@michieldpiano/videos
> > any comment?
>
> Ugly percussive sound. Clownish interpretation.
> Hiccups everywhere. Not the slightest trace of
> expression. Suelement pour épater les bourgeois.

Because of sheer ennui, I decided to give Demarey
a second hearing. This time it Kreisleriana went
down a little smoother, thanks to using the proper
lubricant. I had no idea the soundstage produced
by Rémy Martin could be so different from the one
produced by Bowmore.

The performance still sounds somewhat contrived
to my ears, though not radically different from other
contrived studio performances that are so much in
fashion nowadays. No way anyone would be able to
pull off somthing like this on stage without losing
their compass.

dk

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 11:47:04 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 9:41:43 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 6:42:38 AM UTC-7, CSX wrote:
> > >
> > > Kreisleriana and Mephisto are unbelievable
> > > https://www.youtube.com/@michieldpiano/videos
> > > any comment?
> >
> > Ugly percussive sound. Clownish interpretation.
> > Hiccups everywhere. Not the slightest trace of
> > expression. Suelement pour épater les bourgeois.
>
> Because of sheer ennui, I decided to give Demarey
> a second hearing. This time it Kreisleriana went
> down a little smoother, thanks to using the proper
> lubricant. I had no idea the soundstage produced
> by Rémy Martin could be so different from the one
> produced by Bowmore.
>
> The performance still sounds somewhat contrived
> to my ears, though not radically different from other
> contrived studio performances that are so much in
> fashion nowadays. No way anyone would be able to
> pull off somthing like this on stage without losing
> their compass.

Unfortunately, Mephisto was not improved by Rémy
Martin. Need to try something else.

dk