On 6/30/2023 12:24 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 15:43:00 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 6/30/2023 10:08 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 14:48:08 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> I don't believe Israel as any interest in Gaza, by the way.
>>>
>>> Not yet......
>> Israel occupied Gaza during the 1967 war. When Israel and Egypt concluded a peace treaty, they evacuated Gaza. Gaza is not part of historical Israel. It seems you know very little about Israel. Why don't you learn something? You could visit, even. All sorts of people visit Israel, Jews, Gentiles, religious, not religious, doesn't matter. Spectacular beaches, restaurants, history. You could donate an equal sum to what you spend there to the Palestinian cause to make up for supporting Israelis with your money and the State with the taxes you would pay.
>
> I'm sure I would learn a lot from visiting Israel, that's true. But these days I stay closer to home and avoid hot weather.

We've been there almost 20 times, in all seasons. Summer heat, winter thunderstorms, dust storms, but not too bad overall. One time when the winds were blowing from the desert, I was outdoors and got rained on a little. Every drop of rain caused a brown spot on my white shirt. It was raining sand, basically. We've never had a trip there that was unpleasant because of the weather. But then we hang out mostly in Jerusalem, which is more temperate tha Tel Aviv, or north.

We've never witnessed a terrorist incident. The Sbarro pizza bombing occurred hours after we had eaten there. I learned about it from a flight attendant on the way home.

Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 18:33:46 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

> >> All based on the premise that the West Bank "belongs" to the Palestinians, which is bullshit. Any thinking, caring person who knows anything about history will recognize that this is disputed territory not an illegal occupation. I don't believe Israel as any interest in Gaza, by the way.

> > Frank, I cannot just let this go unnoticed. You cannot call the occupation of disputed territory legal or more precisely: not-illegal. Not that it will make a difference.

> Why can't I?

Because it is occupied Palestinian Territory.

>> The Palestinians will have to leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem, legally or illegally.

> I don't see that happening. Most likely they will just be citizens of Israel, as the Arabs of East Jerusalem already are.

We'll have to wait and see.

> > It doesn't make matters better by telling us that caring persons with a knowledge of history believe it to be alright. Politics goes its own way, right or wrong. You won't be able to stop it or speed it up. You and I won't live long enough to witness the consequences.

> It is true that reasonable people can take one side or the other. It seems to me that the only Palestinian claim is that they are there now. There is no Palestinian nation in history. You know that until after WWII, "Palestinian" mean a Palestinian Jew, right. The concept of a Palestinian nation didn't exist until Arafat came along in the 1960s. Sympathy for "Palestinan" suffering does not translate simply into a Palestinian state.

Suffering people will suffer more. Isocrates already knew that. Only individuals can be certain that one day their suffering will come to an end.

> Other options exist, such as becoming citizens of a 'Greater Israel," or becoming citizens of a Palestinian-Jordanian confederation, which has been proposed by Saudi Arabia and totally ignored by the faithful adherents of the obsolete two-state solution.

A Greater Israel means that almost 1/2 of citizens will be of Arab/Palestinian descent, and growing fast. A confederation with Jordania means problems with colonists on the West Bank (where could they go?) and religious parties (who want all biblical places back).

> > History will judge, as it judges colonialism these days. In my young days, we were proud descendants of the heroes of the United East-Indian Company. These days we remove their statues and street names.

> As I implied, Israel's actions are not colonialism.

Israeli on the West Bank are called 'colonists'. But what is in a name?

Let's hope that history will be kind to all involved.

Henk

On 6/30/2023 1:40 PM, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 18:33:46 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>>>> All based on the premise that the West Bank "belongs" to the Palestinians, which is bullshit. Any thinking, caring person who knows anything about history will recognize that this is disputed territory not an illegal occupation. I don't believe Israel as any interest in Gaza, by the way.
>
>>> Frank, I cannot just let this go unnoticed. You cannot call the occupation of disputed territory legal or more precisely: not-illegal. Not that it will make a difference.
>
>> Why can't I?
>
> Because it is occupied Palestinian Territory.
>

Isn't
>>> The Palestinians will have to leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem, legally or illegally.
>
>> I don't see that happening. Most likely they will just be citizens of Israel, as the Arabs of East Jerusalem already are.
>
> We'll have to wait and see.
>
>>> It doesn't make matters better by telling us that caring persons with a knowledge of history believe it to be alright. Politics goes its own way, right or wrong. You won't be able to stop it or speed it up. You and I won't live long enough to witness the consequences.
>
>> It is true that reasonable people can take one side or the other. It seems to me that the only Palestinian claim is that they are there now. There is no Palestinian nation in history. You know that until after WWII, "Palestinian" mean a Palestinian Jew, right. The concept of a Palestinian nation didn't exist until Arafat came along in the 1960s. Sympathy for "Palestinan" suffering does not translate simply into a Palestinian state.
>
> Suffering people will suffer more. Isocrates already knew that. Only individuals can be certain that one day their suffering will come to an end.
>
>> Other options exist, such as becoming citizens of a 'Greater Israel," or becoming citizens of a Palestinian-Jordanian confederation, which has been proposed by Saudi Arabia and totally ignored by the faithful adherents of the obsolete two-state solution.
>
> A Greater Israel means that almost 1/2 of citizens will be of Arab/Palestinian descent, and growing fast. A confederation with Jordania means problems with colonists on the West Bank (where could they go?) and religious parties (who want all biblical places back).
>
>>> History will judge, as it judges colonialism these days. In my young days, we were proud descendants of the heroes of the United East-Indian Company. These days we remove their statues and street names.
>
>> As I implied, Israel's actions are not colonialism.
>
> Israeli on the West Bank are called 'colonists'. But what is in a name?
>
> Let's hope that history will be kind to all involved.
>
> Henk

Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:30:30 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> > Because it is occupied Palestinian Territory.

> Isn't

Did the UN change its mind recently?

Henk

HT schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 20:35:22 UTC+2:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:30:30 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> > > Because it is occupied Palestinian Territory.
>
> > Isn't
> Did the UN change its mind recently?
>
> Henk

Probably not - but antisemitism is deeply entrenched in the UN. The UN is not to be trusted wrt "anything" concerning Israel, just as Amnesty International.

The world's worst abusers of human rights sit on the human rights council in the UN (Iran, Pakistan, China, Venezuela, Nigeria) and you quote the UN - very funny.

It's basically just a corrupted political institution, not an organization that actually advances human rights...

There were like 10+ resolutions on human rights violations passed on israel in the un; but just like 1 or so for China, Pakistan etc. ;D just to give you an impression (I have posted links about this before).

For starters: Hillel Neuer (whom I often quoted) of the UN Watch on antisemtiism and anti-israel bias in the UN:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZeqMrcDG2s

Henk just being an idiot as usual... nothing will change the mind of this ignorant ;D

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2023 um 21:50:22 UTC+2:
> Frank Berger schrieb am Donnerstag, 29. Juni 2023 um 21:42:29 UTC+2:
> > On 6/29/2023 2:30 PM, Herman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 7:59:16 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Why are you afraid to talk about antisemitism?
> > >
> > > Frank, maybe you have missed a couple of things.
> > > However, there's also a tiny chance you're being disingenuous.
> > > It's not about discussing antisemitism.
> > > It's about evil irresponsible posters just calling other posters antisemite to be divisive and drive RMCR-posters out, so as to have more space for themselves, and then signing off with 'pax'.
> > > Evil people.
> > >
> > > I don't want to be called an antisemite.
> > > I also don't want some kid talking about my parents and grandparents as Hitler-acolytes and antisemites.
> > > These are just irresponsible totally evil people.
> > > Writing this down makes me realize I should not even be here,
> > > where evil nasty people like that thrive and, incidentally, get defended and admired by you, Frank.
> > What you are correct about is that if you don't like what you read here, then stay away, or at least don't participate in discussions where some asshole is going to accuse of antisemitism with no apparent basis. What you and Andy have no right to do is attempt to tell others what to post.
> Actually I provided a basis - UNHRC and the European Parliament. It's just that you blocked me - basically when I started posting here, and I tried to correct you on antisemitism or sth; which you probably totally forgot about... almost as hypocritical as Herman, but since you defend Israel, you are okay in my book ;D

**Mistake here: I did not provide anything of the UNHRC, what I meant was the IHRA - international holocaust remembrance association. Sorry. Fuck the UNHRC.

On 6/30/2023 2:35 PM, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:30:30 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>>> Because it is occupied Palestinian Territory.
>
>> Isn't
>
> Did the UN change its mind recently?
>
> Henk

Why must the UN be considered authoritative?

Frank Berger schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 20:51:20 UTC+2:
> On 6/30/2023 2:35 PM, HT wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:30:30 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> >
> >>> Because it is occupied Palestinian Territory.
> >
> >> Isn't
> >
> > Did the UN change its mind recently?
> >
> > Henk
> Why must the UN be considered authoritative?

Right? The UN is a joke.

The UN-Human rights council elected Francesca Albanese as a special rapporteur on Palestine; what did she do?

Equate the Palestinian suffering with the shoah (if you do this - according to the IHRA - it is considered antisemitic), accused Israel of war crimes, apartheid (again antisemitic), said that America is subjugated by a Jewish lobby (getting pluted vibes here ;D ) and what not - wrt to Hamas, Albanese said: you have a right to resist.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DpjjObZONfE

This is how corrupt the UN is morally - just like Herman and Ursula von der Leyen ;D

Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

> Why must the UN be considered authoritative?

Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.

So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.

Henk

HT schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 21:09:37 UTC+2:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> > Why must the UN be considered authoritative?
> Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.
>
> So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.
>

No, it does only mean, that Israel appealed to the UN. They have no other option ;) It's just a stage of international politics, and since Israel is being demonized by the UN left and right, Israel defends itself. Just as anyone would.

> Henk

HT schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 21:09:37 UTC+2:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> > Why must the UN be considered authoritative?
> Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.
>
> So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.
>
> Henk

Here you can see what Menachem Schneerson (The Rebbe) thought and Netanyahu thinks of the UN:

"The Rabbi said many things to me that night. But he said one big thing.

He said, "You will go into a house of lies," that's how he referred to a particular institution.

He said, "Remember that in a hall of perfect darkness, if you light one small candle, its precious light will be seen from afar, by everyone. Your mission is to light a candle for truth and for the Jewish people.""

They think of the UN as a house of lies - rightfully so :)

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/1394394/jewish/Truth-vs-Darkness-in-the-United-Nations.htm

On 6/30/2023 3:09 PM, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>> Why must the UN be considered authoritative?
>
> Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.
>
I consider it an international organization, not an authority.

> So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.
>

Doesn't follow. Simply an agreement brokered by the UN.

> Henk

Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 21:39:16 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 6/30/2023 3:09 PM, HT wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> >
> >> Why must the UN be considered authoritative?
> >
> > Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.
> >
> I consider it an international organization, not an authority.

How relevant is a personal view in these matters?

> > So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.
> >
> Doesn't follow. Simply an agreement brokered by the UN.

Important enough for Israel to complain that it was broken. Why complain to an organization if that organization is of no consequence?

I assume that all is said what we have to say about these matters. Shall we agree to disagree and have a pleasant weekend?

Best wishes,
Henk

HT schrieb am Freitag, 30. Juni 2023 um 22:00:23 UTC+2:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 21:39:16 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> > On 6/30/2023 3:09 PM, HT wrote:
> > > Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
> > >
> > >> Why must the UN be considered authoritative?
> > >
> > > Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.
> > >
> > I consider it an international organization, not an authority.
> How relevant is a personal view in these matters?

Believing the UN is a personal view as well.

Your fetish for authorities is showing :) (Adorno: Authoritarian Personality).

> > > So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.
> > >
> > Doesn't follow. Simply an agreement brokered by the UN.
> Important enough for Israel to complain that it was broken. Why complain to an organization if that organization is of no consequence?
>

Because it is a stage of international politics with coverage; Israel is just taking part in worldly affairs.

Do you believe the Palestinians consider the UN to be an authority? LOL

Do you think they would legalize homosexuality if the UN told them so, which the UN doesn't, as they are obsessed with Israel?

> I assume that all is said what we have to say about these matters. Shall we agree to disagree and have a pleasant weekend?
>

It was all said years ago already - again and again; with you being as ignorant as always.

No Shalom to you Henk.

> Best wishes,
> Henk

On 6/30/2023 4:00 PM, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 21:39:16 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>> On 6/30/2023 3:09 PM, HT wrote:
>>> Op vrijdag 30 juni 2023 om 20:51:20 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
>>>
>>>> Why must the UN be considered authoritative?
>>>
>>> Why not? It is the only international authority we have. Israel regularly appealed to the UN. For example, in 2018, about resolution 1701.
>>>
>> I consider it an international organization, not an authority.
>
> How relevant is a personal view in these matters?
>
>>> So it seems that Israel does consider the UN authoritative.
>>>
>> Doesn't follow. Simply an agreement brokered by the UN.
>
> Important enough for Israel to complain that it was broken. Why complain to an organization if that organization is of no consequence?

Who else do you appeal to, but the aritrator

>
> I assume that all is said what we have to say about these matters. Shall we agree to disagree and have a pleasant weekend?
>

Sure. But it seems I have had the last word, if you can deal with that.

> Best wishes,
> Henk
>

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 1:00:23 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> Shall we agree to disagree and
> have a pleasant weekend?
>

NO !!!

dk

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 3:58:56 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 1:00:23 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> >
> > Shall we agree to disagree and
> > have a pleasant weekend?
>
> NO !!!

Weekends are the best times
for debates and arguments.

dk

*Rachel YAKAR*...

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 12:26:03 AM UTC-7, MELMOTH wrote:
>
> *Rachel YAKAR*...
>

Did you notice she was Jewish?

Regards

On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 08:39:02 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 12:26:03 AM UTC-7, MELMOTH wrote:
> >
> > *Rachel YAKAR*...
> >
>
> Did you notice she was Jewish?
>
> Regards

PLEASE - no more antisemite threads.

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:11:20 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 08:39:02 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 12:26:03 AM UTC-7, MELMOTH wrote:
> > >
> > > *Rachel YAKAR*...
> >
> > Did you notice she was Jewish?
> >
> > Regards
>
> PLEASE - no more antisemite threads.

I asked a simple, straight question. I
did not accuse anyone of anything.

No need to over-react. Your reaction
raises questions about your motives.

Regards

On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 10:16:19 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:11:20 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 08:39:02 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 12:26:03 AM UTC-7, MELMOTH wrote:
> > > >
> > > > *Rachel YAKAR*...
> > >
> > > Did you notice she was Jewish?
> > >
> > > Regards
> >
> > PLEASE - no more antisemite threads.
> I asked a simple, straight question. I
> did not accuse anyone of anything.
>
> No need to over-react. Your reaction
> raises questions about your motives.
>
> Regards

It was completely unnecessary, and nothing with you is "simple"

And don't start any further nonsense about "my motives" because you know quite well where that goes.

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:30:32 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 10:16:19 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 2:11:20 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 08:39:02 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 12:26:03 AM UTC-7, MELMOTH wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > *Rachel YAKAR*...
> > > >
> > > > Did you notice she was Jewish?
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > >
> > > PLEASE - no more antisemite threads.
> >
> > I asked a simple, straight question. I
> > did not accuse anyone of anything.
> >
> > No need to over-react. Your reaction
> > raises questions about your motives.
> >
> > Regards
>
> It was completely unnecessary,

You have no standing or authority
to decide what is "unnecessary" or
"necessary". This is censorship,
pure and simple.

> and nothing with you is "simple"

ROTFL !!!

> And don't start any further nonsense
> about "my motives" because you
> know quite well where that goes.

HA HA HA !!!

Regards

dk

> Are you referring to Andy, Herman or Oscar?
>
> I have no issues with anyone.
>
> Pax and regards,
>
> dk

Hundred percent disengenuous shit stirrer.

On Monday, 26 June 2023 at 11:30:41 UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> > Are you referring to Andy, Herman or Oscar?
> > I have no issues with anyone.
> > Pax and regards,
> > dk
>
> Hundred percent disengenuous shit stirrer.

Yes, of course. Nothing new.