On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 20:35:43 UTC, Marc S wrote:
> Many times - even if it does interfere with some of your social abilities - it does not make it a pathological condition.

That's true. You need to understand that psychiatry and the DSM work in a different way from psychometric tests. The DSM is based on "conditions" and diagnosis is done by ticking off the traits that together make up a diagnosis. Psychologists use a sliding scale, on which traits can be more or less raised. So for instance much of the population will have a raised score on depression at one time or another, but that's not the same as Major Depressive Disorder or Persistent Depressive Disorder (Dysthymia), which are conditions under the DSM.

> "Freud considered narcissism a natural part of the human makeup that, taken to extremes, prevents people from having meaningful relationships.[8][9] He distinguished narcissism as "the libidinal complement to the egoism of the instinct of self-preservation". This self-preservation or desire and energy that drives one’s instinct to survive he referred to as a healthy trait termed primary narcissism."

That's quite interesting. But Freud was operating at the very birth of modern psychology and had invented a lot of his working practice and theory. It's all totally bound up with his psychoanalytical system and modern psychologists would start in a very different place many, many years later. Freud is an interesting read and I've read most of it, but however brilliant he was, it's dated stuff.

> I have a very good feeling and quite a bit of experience in determining things such as these.

Making psychological diagnoses by having "a very good feeling" is like asking cats to do algebra.

Incidentally, my score on Narcissism is exactly average, so nothing to be gained there. As a psychologist licensed to do psychometric testing I've gone through innumerable tests over the years to test them out.

On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 20:15:49 UTC, Herman wrote:
> Andy I was actually talking to you when I said narcissism, using that term as short for NPD, for which this friend of ours has been tested positive. Since he's getting in various problems, job loss and financial issues and social exclusion, I went and talked with a psychiatrist two times to see what could be done. As is often the case, our friend is just about the only person who is blissfully unaware of his diagnosis. I mean, he is aware he has been diagnosed, but he's convinced he was only suffering from NPD on the day of the test, a super-endearing way of looking at it.>>

NPD can be very tough for the children of a narcissistic parent, very tough.. The sooner they know that the parent is very narcissistic by nature the sooner they can take important measures to adapt to it. They need to separate as soon as possible their authentic personalities from the "personality" that is being projected onto them, which is usually one of chronic self-doubt and self-criticism. I've seen a few cases of this over the years and it's a sad picture until the children start to separate themselves and assert themselves. Leaving home as soon as possible can, unfortunately, be one way to survive.

Andy Evans schrieb am Sonntag, 12. November 2023 um 22:01:46 UTC+1:
> On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 20:35:43 UTC, Marc S wrote:
> > Many times - even if it does interfere with some of your social abilities - it does not make it a pathological condition.
> That's true. You need to understand that psychiatry and the DSM work in a different way from psychometric tests. The DSM is based on "conditions" and diagnosis is done by ticking off the traits that together make up a diagnosis. Psychologists use a sliding scale, on which traits can be more or less raised. So for instance much of the population will have a raised score on depression at one time or another, but that's not the same as Major Depressive Disorder or Persistent Depressive Disorder (Dysthymia), which are conditions under the DSM.

This is interesting to know.

> > "Freud considered narcissism a natural part of the human makeup that, taken to extremes, prevents people from having meaningful relationships.[8][9] He distinguished narcissism as "the libidinal complement to the egoism of the instinct of self-preservation". This self-preservation or desire and energy that drives one’s instinct to survive he referred to as a healthy trait termed primary narcissism."
> That's quite interesting. But Freud was operating at the very birth of modern psychology and had invented a lot of his working practice and theory. It's all totally bound up with his psychoanalytical system and modern psychologists would start in a very different place many, many years later. Freud is an interesting read and I've read most of it, but however brilliant he was, it's dated stuff.

Last time you told us, that you didn't understand anything you heard about Freud in France or sth. And no it is not dated stuff; it is essential. Unfortunately Freud has been hijacked by idiots. Freud is radical.

Even Jung said the following about Islam and the Germans:

"We do not know, if Hitler isn't yet founding a new Islam. He is already at it, he is similar to Muhammad. The German temperament is islamic. They are all drunk of a raging god. This could be the future of our history."

-- C. G. Jung: Collected WOrks Bd. 18: The symbolic Life. Princeton UP, P. 281

only for Hitler to declare the following according to Speer (as I already once quoted here):

"During a meeting with a delegation of distinguished Arab figures, Hitler learned of how Islam motivated the Umayyad Caliphate during the invasion of Gaul. According to Albert Speer, Hitler wished that the Caliphate had won the Battle of Tours against the Franks in 732: "The Mohammedan religion would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[217] "Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers – already, you see, the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing was Christianity! – then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies heroism and which opens the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so."[218] According to Speer, Hitler was convinced that had Islam taken root in central Europe at this time, the Germanic people would have become the "heirs of that religion" with Islam being "perfectly suited to the Germanic temperament". Hitler said that while the Arabs, on account of their "racial inferiority", would have been unable to handle the harsh climate and conditions of the region, and that instead the Islamized Germans would have "stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire". A "religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and in subjugating all nations to that faith".[217]"

> > I have a very good feeling and quite a bit of experience in determining things such as these.
> Making psychological diagnoses by having "a very good feeling" is like asking cats to do algebra.

Every psychoanalyst, psychiatrist and psychologist must rely on feeling... they all have a feeling for the case... also I have enough evidence. I should have added that, I grant you that.

>
> Incidentally, my score on Narcissism is exactly average, so nothing to be gained there. As a psychologist licensed to do psychometric testing I've gone through innumerable tests over the years to test them out.
Depends on who did the test. Unforunately many psychologists these days - such as you - can't find anything wrong with teenager's tits being amputated in the name of transgender-ideology; so your words are worth bullshit.

Herman schrieb am Sonntag, 12. November 2023 um 21:15:49 UTC+1:
> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:59:37 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > No, that's not exactly true. You will find NPD in the DSM under Personality Disorders. But that doesn't mean that "Narcissistic Personality" is natural, healthy and a "good thing". If you have a raised narcissism score on a reputable psychometric test it can indicate that you show some of these traits, which can interfere with your social abilities.
> >
> > And obviously you can't just say "as is the case with you" because you need proper psychological training, in-person interviews and various tests to establish any personality measure with any kind of validity. And even then there are a number of associated personality traits which are present in more than one condition. Not simple at all.
> Andy I was actually talking to you when I said narcissism, using that term as short for NPD, for which this friend of ours has been tested positive. Since he's getting in various problems, job loss and financial issues and social exclusion, I went and talked with a psychiatrist two times to see what could be done. As is often the case, our friend is just about the only person who is blissfully unaware of his diagnosis. I mean, he is aware he has been diagnosed, but he's convinced he was only suffering from NPD on the day of the test, a super-endearing way of looking at it.

I love how Andy ignored you twice before answering; hahaha

Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 12. November 2023 um 22:31:21 UTC+1:
> Andy Evans schrieb am Sonntag, 12. November 2023 um 22:01:46 UTC+1:
> > On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 20:35:43 UTC, Marc S wrote:
> > > Many times - even if it does interfere with some of your social abilities - it does not make it a pathological condition.
> > That's true. You need to understand that psychiatry and the DSM work in a different way from psychometric tests. The DSM is based on "conditions" and diagnosis is done by ticking off the traits that together make up a diagnosis. Psychologists use a sliding scale, on which traits can be more or less raised. So for instance much of the population will have a raised score on depression at one time or another, but that's not the same as Major Depressive Disorder or Persistent Depressive Disorder (Dysthymia), which are conditions under the DSM.
> This is interesting to know.
> > > "Freud considered narcissism a natural part of the human makeup that, taken to extremes, prevents people from having meaningful relationships.[8][9] He distinguished narcissism as "the libidinal complement to the egoism of the instinct of self-preservation". This self-preservation or desire and energy that drives one’s instinct to survive he referred to as a healthy trait termed primary narcissism."
> > That's quite interesting. But Freud was operating at the very birth of modern psychology and had invented a lot of his working practice and theory.. It's all totally bound up with his psychoanalytical system and modern psychologists would start in a very different place many, many years later. Freud is an interesting read and I've read most of it, but however brilliant he was, it's dated stuff.
> Last time you told us, that you didn't understand anything you heard about Freud in France or sth. And no it is not dated stuff; it is essential. Unfortunately Freud has been hijacked by idiots. Freud is radical.
>
> Even Jung said the following about Islam and the Germans:
>
> "We do not know, if Hitler isn't yet founding a new Islam. He is already at it, he is similar to Muhammad. The German temperament is islamic. They are all drunk of a raging god. This could be the future of our history."
>
> -- C. G. Jung: Collected WOrks Bd. 18: The symbolic Life. Princeton UP, P.. 281

*I translated it, and the translation is not really good... should have given it a bit more thought. Anyway read it up yourself if you want to.

>
> only for Hitler to declare the following according to Speer (as I already once quoted here):
>
> "During a meeting with a delegation of distinguished Arab figures, Hitler learned of how Islam motivated the Umayyad Caliphate during the invasion of Gaul. According to Albert Speer, Hitler wished that the Caliphate had won the Battle of Tours against the Franks in 732: "The Mohammedan religion would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[217] "Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers – already, you see, the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing was Christianity! – then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies heroism and which opens the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so."[218] According to Speer, Hitler was convinced that had Islam taken root in central Europe at this time, the Germanic people would have become the "heirs of that religion" with Islam being "perfectly suited to the Germanic temperament". Hitler said that while the Arabs, on account of their "racial inferiority", would have been unable to handle the harsh climate and conditions of the region, and that instead the Islamized Germans would have "stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire". A "religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and in subjugating all nations to that faith".[217]"
> > > I have a very good feeling and quite a bit of experience in determining things such as these.
> > Making psychological diagnoses by having "a very good feeling" is like asking cats to do algebra.
> Every psychoanalyst, psychiatrist and psychologist must rely on feeling.... they all have a feeling for the case... also I have enough evidence. I should have added that, I grant you that.
> >
> > Incidentally, my score on Narcissism is exactly average, so nothing to be gained there. As a psychologist licensed to do psychometric testing I've gone through innumerable tests over the years to test them out.
> Depends on who did the test. Unforunately many psychologists these days - such as you - can't find anything wrong with teenager's tits being amputated in the name of transgender-ideology; so your words are worth bullshit.

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 2:36:31 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 11:06:18 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > If so, Winston Churchill is spitting in
> > your face.
>
> OMG, the other narcissistic cliché: Winston
> Churchill and I stand shoulder to shoulder.

I actually don't. I profoundly dislike Winston
Churchill for many reasons. This does not
detract from his contribution to Britain's
survival during WWII. Whether it was
worth the effort it is still an open
question.

> FYI the dead don't spit people in the face.
> They're dead.

Sorry for waking up the strict literalist in you.
You clearly do not understand the concepts
of allegory and metaphore. Not surprising
for a dumb wedge of aged Gouda.