raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 13. November 2023 um 10:41:52 UTC+1:
> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 19:15:44 UTC+11, Marc S wrote:
> > raymond....gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 13. November 2023 um 02:36:50 UTC+1:
> /2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> > > > >> It did not take long...
> > > > >> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
> > > > >> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
> > > > >
> > > > > I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew Clarke
> > > > > Canberra
> > > > All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
> > > Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
> > Do you ever think before you write? What a deluded mess lol.
> Knowing you from your posts, anything that offends your braincell, will always appear as a mess.
> > ‘Reprehensible’ anti-Israel protesters chant ‘Gas the Jews’ outside Sydney Opera House: video
> >
> > https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant-gas-the-jews-outside-sydney-opera-house/
> >
> > That there are no anti-Hamas demonstrations organized by muslims in Australia and elsewhere should be quite telling.
> Especially as it isn't Hamas that is killing 1000s of Palestinians. Even someone like should have worked this out, but you failed on this too.
> > These are the facts. Another fact is: Your mindset is very antisemitic. And another is that you are too deluded to realize this.
> It is you that is the antisemite and are too stupid to realise it. But as this epithet has obviously no weight or currency anymore, especially coming from this NG, you can rest easy, and provide us with more laughs about your continuing choice of chimposers. Chimps for chimps but hey even LvB was ok for his time.

lol - you are a very sick person, Ray.

I think Frank's response was very well thought out - read it again; as often as you must to understand it.

>
> Ray Hall, Taree

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 4:37:24 PM UTC-6, Herman wrote:
> It did not take long...
> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.

Herman, show some self-discipline! I've just clicked on the first two off-topic messages in the newsgroup to see what the deal is with them and both are authored by you.

Let the assholes be assholes and stop giving them cause to attack you and pour more poison into the group.

On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 21:55:39 UTC+11, Marc S wrote:
> raymond....gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 13. November 2023 um 10:41:52 UTC+1:
> > On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 19:15:44 UTC+11, Marc S wrote:
> > > raymond....gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 13. November 2023 um 02:36:50 UTC+1:
> > /2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> > > > > >> It did not take long...
> > > > > >> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
> > > > > >> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew Clarke
> > > > > > Canberra
> > > > > All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
> > > > Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
> > > Do you ever think before you write? What a deluded mess lol.
> > Knowing you from your posts, anything that offends your braincell, will always appear as a mess.
> > > ‘Reprehensible’ anti-Israel protesters chant ‘Gas the Jews’ outside Sydney Opera House: video
> > >
> > > https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant-gas-the-jews-outside-sydney-opera-house/
> > >
> > > That there are no anti-Hamas demonstrations organized by muslims in Australia and elsewhere should be quite telling.
> > Especially as it isn't Hamas that is killing 1000s of Palestinians. Even someone like should have worked this out, but you failed on this too.
> > > These are the facts. Another fact is: Your mindset is very antisemitic. And another is that you are too deluded to realize this.
> > It is you that is the antisemite and are too stupid to realise it. But as this epithet has obviously no weight or currency anymore, especially coming from this NG, you can rest easy, and provide us with more laughs about your continuing choice of chimposers. Chimps for chimps but hey even LvB was ok for his time.
> lol - you are a very sick person, Ray.
>
> I think Frank's response was very well thought out - read it again; as often as you must to understand it.

Lol. I don't read bigotry and someone else's sick mind. Yours will suffice.

Ray Hall, Taree

On 11/12/2023 7:57 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:06C+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/12/2023 2:48 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 17:36:20 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:02 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 10:24:04 UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 2:37:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>>>>>>> It did not take long...
>>>>>> Sticking your head in the sand as always.
>>>>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music
>>>>>> Are you referring to yourself, Mandryka, Andy and Gerard? Can you even
>>>>>> count to 4? FWIW I have posted far more useful information about music
>>>>>> and recordings on this ng over the past 30+ years than you and your ilk
>>>>>> will ever be able.
>>>>>>> are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible
>>>>>>> proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen
>>>>>>> to live in London. We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you quote chapter and verse? As usual you are taking things out of
>>>>>> context, projecting, reading between lines, and ignoring what I actually
>>>>>> wrote.
>>>>>
>>>>> One doesn't have to read between lines, because the drivel written by the few here is self evident.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is little doubt the UK and its "academic" institutions are leading
>>>>>> the defamation campaign against Jews and Israel in Western Europe.
>>>>>
>>>>> More utter rubbish. Why are people throughout many cities worldwide being condemned by some for protesting the systematic killing of 11000 people, 4500 who are kids, under the false narrative that they are Pro-Palestinian? And yet you choose to believe otherwise. You are no better than your Nazi mate Marc and his ilk that bore him.
>>>>> Interesting also that to note in another post that while condemning Oxbridge you choose to believe that good ole Etonian and Oxbridge "scholar" Murray. What a deceived fool you are. In short you demonstrate no worth because you choose to believe what you want believe.
>>>>>
>>> Rd
>>>> How are we to understand your usage of the word "systematic?"
>>>
>>> Go to language classes, as the word is well understood by most people worldwide,
>> Except that it's quite common for people to uses words in different ways.
>> except for those who want to muddy the argument with red herrings,
>> Refusing to answer is just evasion.
>
> There wss no question to answer, but as you are the proven master of obfuscation, and blind blinkered subjectivity, you're a complete waste of time replying to.
>
> As always, enjoy the last word. Having the ,last word is for you an achievement.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

The question was what you meant by "systematic." Shouldn't be hard to answer, even if I'm an idiot obfuscator. As always, these exchanges, such as they are, end with you refusing to engage.

On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
>>>> It did not take long...
>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
>>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
>>>
>>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> Canberra
>> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
>
> Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
>
Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.

On Tuesday, 14 November 2023 at 07:56:58 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> >>>> It did not take long...
> >>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
> >>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
> >>>
> >>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
> >>>
> >>> Andrew Clarke
> >>> Canberra
> >> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news.. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
> >
> > Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact.. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> >
> Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
>
> You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.
________________________________

Your very opening words 'your (deliberate) misuse of words' indicates immediately to me the futility of any useful debate with you. The very fact that, as indicated in many previous posts, you posit that Israel (as represented by many of its leaders) can do no wrong, despite the majority of its own people disowning such representation, indicates no useful dialogue will ever be reached between us, or between Israel and those outside. Added to the fact that your little nazi fanboy clutters any dialogue with its infantile ramblings, makes it mandatory for me to not waste my time here until music that is pertinent to my taste is ever discussed.

And, finally, I used the word systematic, because an operation that is very clearly now planned and methodical, has been far too prolonged to justify the term 'just reaction'. I always choose my words carefully and will continue to do so.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 8:56:58 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
>

Do YOU think that Israel's actions in Gaza are morally justifiable?

On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 06:36:20 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

> If I see that proportionality argument one more time I will throw up.....

Be my guest, Frank. As of 13 Nov 2023, the death toll in the Gaza Strip has risen to 11,100, including more than 8,000 children and women, following the five-week-old Israeli bombardment. That was yesterday, so many more today. It goes on and on without mercy and hospitals and starving people are at the centre of it.

I realise that you have friends and relations in Israel and this is tough for you. But it's impossible to ignore this carnage. The sooner the despicable Netanyahu regime is kicked out of power the sooner some kind of sanity might take its place.

On 11/13/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 14 November 2023 at 07:56:58 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
>>>>>> It did not take long...
>>>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
>>>>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
>>>>>
>>>>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>> Canberra
>>>> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
>>>
>>> Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
>>>
>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>>
>> Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
>>
>> You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.
> ________________________________
>
> Your very opening words 'your (deliberate) misuse of words' indicates immediately to me the futility of any useful debate with you. The very fact that, as indicated in many previous posts, you >posit that Israel (as represented by many of its leaders) can do no wrong,
A lie. A lie which you repeat over and over.
> despite the majority of its own people disowning such representation,
Gee, if Israeli voters are split (they are, of course, on many issues) and Israel governments change from time to time, and I have certain political leanings, how could I possibly agree with every action or policy of every Israeli government. And you have overlooked that this war and the conduct of it has widespread support among the Israeli people, whether Left, Right, Druse or Bedouin.
indicates no useful dialogue will ever be reached between us, or between Israel and those outside. Added to the fact that your little nazi fanboy clutters any dialogue with its infantile ramblings, makes it mandatory for me to not waste my time here until music that is pertinent to my taste is ever discussed.
>
Our exchanges are always of the sames type. You say something and I challenge it (usually with facts). Then you whine and say there is no use talking to me. You are capable only of spouting a party line (talking points, if you prefer). You never engage at all. I'm content with that.
I don't know if I have a fanboy, because I don't know that that is nor who you are referring to.
> And, finally, I used the word systematic, because an operation that is very clearly now planned and methodical, has been far too prolonged to justify the term 'just reaction'. I always choose my words carefully and will continue to do so.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

On 11/14/2023 7:05 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 8:56:58 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
>>
>
>
> Do YOU think that Israel's actions in Gaza are morally justifiable?
>

Yes. How do YOU think Israel should have responded to Oct 7?

On 11/14/2023 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Sunday, 12 November 2023 at 06:36:20 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> If I see that proportionality argument one more time I will throw up.....
>
> Be my guest, Frank. As of 13 Nov 2023, the death toll in the Gaza Strip has risen to 11,100, including more than 8,000 children and women, following the five-week-old Israeli bombardment. That was yesterday, so many more today. It goes on and on without mercy and hospitals and starving people are at the centre of it.
>

Please explain how you know these statistics, that come from Hamas, are reliable. Do you take the Chinese governments reporting on their GDP or unemployment (or anything else) at face value? Why would you believe Hamas.

Aside from the numbers: All innocent deaths are regrettable. But they are sometimes necessary. Please explain why you think these deaths are excessive. What should Israel's response to Oct 7 have been.

> I realise that you have friends and relations in Israel and this is tough for you. But it's impossible to ignore this carnage. The sooner the despicable Netanyahu regime is kicked out of power the sooner some kind of sanity might take its place.

Is it possible that you have failed to notice that the Israeli people are more unified in support of the war effort than on any other recent issue?

On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 05:43:19 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

> Please explain how you know these statistics, that come from Hamas, are reliable. Do you take the Chinese governments reporting on their GDP or unemployment (or anything else) at face value? Why would you believe Hamas.

Why would I believe the IDF or the Netanyahu government? Israel, like a lot of other countries, has a well oiled and systematic propaganda machine. In Israel it's at the heart of everything and at least as sophisticated as its surveillance industry. You're on the inside of it. All the many demonstrations worldwide against the invasion are on the outside of it. Big difference.

On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 16:25:16 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/13/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 14 November 2023 at 07:56:58 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> >>>>>> It did not take long...
> >>>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
> >>>>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities.. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andrew Clarke
> >>>>> Canberra
> >>>> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
> >>>
> >>> Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
> >>>
> >>> Ray Hall, Taree
> >>>
> >> Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
> >>
> >> You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.
> > ________________________________
> >
> > Your very opening words 'your (deliberate) misuse of words' indicates immediately to me the futility of any useful debate with you. The very fact that, as indicated in many previous posts, you >posit that Israel (as represented by many of its leaders) can do no wrong,
> A lie. A lie which you repeat over and over.
> > despite the majority of its own people disowning such representation,
> Gee, if Israeli voters are split (they are, of course, on many issues) and Israel governments change from time to time, and I have certain political leanings, how could I possibly agree with every action or policy of every Israeli government. And you have overlooked that this war and the conduct of it has widespread support among the Israeli people, whether Left, Right, Druse or Bedouin.

They are split by a decisive majority. Few want hardnut zionists in power that invariably assume power in Israel, who have repeatedly shown zero tolerance to Palestinians, and hence laying the foundations for reciprocal hatred to fester. I have presented you with links showing such intolerance only for you to deny them outright. Facts and reports that you cannot deal with.. Do you wish for me to post the hundreds of them? Because while I have better things to do, I can and I will. As has also been said here recently, when Israel chooses more moderate politicians, the world and its real sympathies will change. But as the gang of hardliners continues to dominate, all that the world really sees is a Zionist thug in power, attacked by outside thugs. So sad for the ordinary people that live there. Don't you think they deserve much better?

> indicates no useful dialogue will ever be reached between us, or between Israel and those outside. Added to the fact that your little nazi fanboy clutters any dialogue with its infantile ramblings, makes it mandatory for me to not waste my time here until music that is pertinent to my taste is ever discussed.

> Our exchanges are always of the sames type.

Then why do you continue unless prepared for reasoned and fair dialogue, of which you are incapable of?

-You say something and I challenge it (usually with facts).

Lol. It is you that is the denier. Everytime. Do not confuse your facts with your own twisted opinions.

-Then you whine and say there is no use talking to me. You are capable only of spouting a --------party line (talking points, if you prefer). You never engage at all. I'm content with that.

It is impossible to engage with you because you are far too blinkered and utterly biased. When confronted with reports detailing mistreatment of Palestinians you deny them outright. Or are you now going to deal with and fully engage with the 100s of reports I can send? Would be a turnup for the books. But I know you won't.

> I don't know if I have a fanboy, because I don't know that that is nor who you are referring to.

You are also now a liar.

Ray Hall, Taree

On 11/15/2023 7:20 AM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 16:25:16 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/13/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 14 November 2023 at 07:56:58 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
>>>>>>>> It did not take long...
>>>>>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
>>>>>>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>>>> Canberra
>>>>>> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>>>>
>>>> Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
>>>>
>>>> You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> Your very opening words 'your (deliberate) misuse of words' indicates immediately to me the futility of any useful debate with you. The very fact that, as indicated in many previous posts, you >posit that Israel (as represented by many of its leaders) can do no wrong,
>> A lie. A lie which you repeat over and over.
>>> despite the majority of its own people disowning such representation,
>> Gee, if Israeli voters are split (they are, of course, on many issues) and Israel governments change from time to time, and I have certain political leanings, how could I possibly agree with every action or policy of every Israeli government. And you have overlooked that this war and the conduct of it has widespread support among the Israeli people, whether Left, Right, Druse or Bedouin.
>
> They are split by a decisive majority. Few want hardnut zionists in power that invariably assume power in Israel, who have repeatedly shown zero tolerance to Palestinians, and hence laying the foundations for reciprocal hatred to fester. I have presented you with links showing such intolerance only for you to deny them outright. Facts and reports that you cannot deal with. Do you wish for me to post the hundreds of them? Because while I have better things to do, I can and I will. As has also been said here recently, when Israel chooses more moderate politicians, the world and its real sympathies will change. But as the gang of hardliners continues to dominate, all that the world really sees is a Zionist thug in power, attacked by outside thugs. So sad for the ordinary people that live there. Don't you think they deserve much better?
>
There is no evidence that the Palestinians would be at all better off had Labor been in power forever. When there is a Palestinian entity that can be a peace partner, there will be peace. Whether it is a Palestinian state or a confederation with Jordan. In such a situation hard-right "thugs" will not be able to prevent it.

>> indicates no useful dialogue will ever be reached between us, or between Israel and those outside. Added to the fact that your little nazi fanboy clutters any dialogue with its infantile ramblings, makes it mandatory for me to not waste my time here until music that is pertinent to my taste is ever discussed.
>
>> Our exchanges are always of the sames type.
>
> Then why do you continue unless prepared for reasoned and fair dialogue, of which you are incapable of?
>
> -You say something and I challenge it (usually with facts).
>
> Lol. It is you that is the denier. Everytime. Do not confuse your facts with your own twisted opinions.
>
> -Then you whine and say there is no use talking to me. You are capable only of spouting a --------party line (talking points, if you prefer). You never engage at all. I'm content with that.
>
> It is impossible to engage with you because you are far too blinkered and utterly biased. When confronted with reports detailing mistreatment of Palestinians you deny them outright. Or are you now going to deal with and fully engage with the 100s of reports I can send? Would be a turnup for the books. But I know you won't.
>
>> I don't know if I have a fanboy, because I don't know that that is nor who you are referring to.
>
> You are also now a liar.
>
Stupid perhaps, but not a liar.
> Ray Hall, Taree
I have asked you what Israel's response to Oct 7 should have been.
By the way I saw a source today that estimates Hamas has overestimated Gazan casualties by a factor of two, and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. This source estimates that half of the casualties are Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

On Thursday, 16 November 2023 at 10:02:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 7:20 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 16:25:16 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 11/13/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, 14 November 2023 at 07:56:58 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> It did not take long...
> >>>>>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
> >>>>>>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andrew Clarke
> >>>>>>> Canberra
> >>>>>> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
> >>>>>
> >>>> Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
> >>>>
> >>>> You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.
> >>> ________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Your very opening words 'your (deliberate) misuse of words' indicates immediately to me the futility of any useful debate with you. The very fact that, as indicated in many previous posts, you >posit that Israel (as represented by many of its leaders) can do no wrong,
> >> A lie. A lie which you repeat over and over.
> >>> despite the majority of its own people disowning such representation,
> >> Gee, if Israeli voters are split (they are, of course, on many issues) and Israel governments change from time to time, and I have certain political leanings, how could I possibly agree with every action or policy of every Israeli government. And you have overlooked that this war and the conduct of it has widespread support among the Israeli people, whether Left, Right, Druse or Bedouin.
> >
> > They are split by a decisive majority. Few want hardnut zionists in power that invariably assume power in Israel, who have repeatedly shown zero tolerance to Palestinians, and hence laying the foundations for reciprocal hatred to fester. I have presented you with links showing such intolerance only for you to deny them outright. Facts and reports that you cannot deal with. Do you wish for me to post the hundreds of them? Because while I have better things to do, I can and I will. As has also been said here recently, when Israel chooses more moderate politicians, the world and its real sympathies will change. But as the gang of hardliners continues to dominate, all that the world really sees is a Zionist thug in power, attacked by outside thugs. So sad for the ordinary people that live there. Don't you think they deserve much better?
> >
> There is no evidence that the Palestinians would be at all better off had Labor been in power forever. When there is a Palestinian entity that can be a peace partner, there will be peace. Whether it is a Palestinian state or a confederation with Jordan. In such a situation hard-right "thugs" will not be able to prevent it.
> >> indicates no useful dialogue will ever be reached between us, or between Israel and those outside. Added to the fact that your little nazi fanboy clutters any dialogue with its infantile ramblings, makes it mandatory for me to not waste my time here until music that is pertinent to my taste is ever discussed.
> >
> >> Our exchanges are always of the sames type.
> >
> > Then why do you continue unless prepared for reasoned and fair dialogue, of which you are incapable of?
> >
> > -You say something and I challenge it (usually with facts).
> >
> > Lol. It is you that is the denier. Everytime. Do not confuse your facts with your own twisted opinions.
> >
> > -Then you whine and say there is no use talking to me. You are capable only of spouting a --------party line (talking points, if you prefer). You never engage at all. I'm content with that.
> >
> > It is impossible to engage with you because you are far too blinkered and utterly biased. When confronted with reports detailing mistreatment of Palestinians you deny them outright. Or are you now going to deal with and fully engage with the 100s of reports I can send? Would be a turnup for the books. But I know you won't.
> >
> >> I don't know if I have a fanboy, because I don't know that that is nor who you are referring to.
> >
> > You are also now a liar.
> >
> Stupid perhaps, but not a liar.
>
> > Ray Hall, Taree
>
> I have asked you what Israel's response to Oct 7 should have been.

A swift and punishing reaction was wholly justifiable. Without question.

> By the way I saw a source today that estimates Hamas has overestimated Gazan casualties by a factor of two, and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. This source estimates that half of the casualties are Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

If the source is close to the truth then this is good to hear.

On 11/15/2023 7:44 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 16 November 2023 at 10:02:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/15/2023 7:20 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 15 November 2023 at 16:25:16 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/13/2023 9:41 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 November 2023 at 07:56:58 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/12/2023 8:36 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 November 2023 at 09:39:15 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2023 5:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 9:37:24 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It did not take long...
>>>>>>>>>> the two resident trolls who show little or no interest in classical music are out again campaigning about antisemitism, talking about "irrefutible proof" of RMCR members being anti-semites, just because they happen to live in t London.
>>>>>>>>>> We've had these hysterics before. It's completely useless.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I might add that 'The Australian' newspaper plus 'The Spectator' and the 'Daily Telegraph' in London are very much pro-Israel, and all three are sympathetic to the fears of Australia's and Britain's Jewish communities. In fact many of the readers' comments are extraordinarily belligerent when it comes to Hamas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>>>>>> Canberra
>>>>>>>> All true. Yet thousands are demonstrating in the streets. And not nearly all just for a humanitarian cease-fire. There is an increase in purely antisemitic incidents such as fire bombings of synagogues, swastikas painted on Jewish homes and even physical violence against Jews. Personally I'm not so surprised at this, as I knew there is a lot of antisemitism in the world. Such incidents always increase whenever Israel is prominent in the news. I think that most of the anti-Israel demonstrators, especially in Europe, are Arabs/Muslims. Perhaps mostly Palestinian. I understand that. They have skin in the game. Rights aside, they want the land, including the land that is Israel ("From the river to the sea"). Almost all of the rest are dupes. They don't even know what they are demonstrating for. One young man carrying a pro-Hamas sign, when told what Hamas stands for and what did on Oct 7, was horrified and said he didn't support that. These morons will not go on to be world leaders; perhaps they will after they learn to think, if that is possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like all religions, you even surpass them in illogical and gross misrepresentation. Maybe but highly unlikely, it is simply not even possible for you to consider that these demonstrations are NOT pro-Palestinian, neither pro-Hamas. Maybe you are too stupid and too gullible, but the reality is you probably especially regard genocide as ok when practised by others, but not when practised by thug bibi's Israel. The SLAUGHTER is what the demos are about, and no amount of obfuscation and delusion will take away that fact. You can write a zillion sentences nd it will not remove the facts. It is because many world politicians and their grubby rw nutjob newspapers influence people like you that the growth of rabid groups like Hamas, will only have cause to flourish in the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your (deliberate) misuse of words demeans any argument you might have. Genocide is what the Nazis tried to do to the Jews. I.E, eliminate all of them. Israel has no interest in eliminating all Palestinians or all Gazans. Every war has unintended, incidental, accidental casualties. The question is if Israel should not have adopted the goal of eliminating Hamas rule of Gaza, what should they have done in response to the murder, kidnapping, beheading and butchering of 1400 of its residents. If one things Israel's goal of warring on Hammas was and is reasonable, exactly how much death and destruction to non-combatants IS acceptable towards achieving that goal? If one holds zero value for murdered Israel's (which must be because one hates Jews or thinks Israel has no right to exist and therefore all its residents are fair game). then ANY action by Israel in Gaza is unacceptable. You won't reply to the following question, but I'll ask anyway. Vis a vis what I have just said, where to YOU stand exactly on these questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You say the demonstrating crowds are only about the "SLAUGHTER." Given the number of signs that proclaim "From the River to the Sea" that is obviously untrue. Similar is the accusation that Israel is committing war crimes and violating international rules of war ( because they are killing civilians). The Geneva Conventions say that launching rockets from within civilian areas IS a war crime, not to mention that the targets are civilians. When an armed force does this, their opponent is allowed, under the Conventions to fight back. That is what Israel is doing, and always does, despite idiots or haters saying otherwise.
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Your very opening words 'your (deliberate) misuse of words' indicates immediately to me the futility of any useful debate with you. The very fact that, as indicated in many previous posts, you >posit that Israel (as represented by many of its leaders) can do no wrong,
>>>> A lie. A lie which you repeat over and over.
>>>>> despite the majority of its own people disowning such representation,
>>>> Gee, if Israeli voters are split (they are, of course, on many issues) and Israel governments change from time to time, and I have certain political leanings, how could I possibly agree with every action or policy of every Israeli government. And you have overlooked that this war and the conduct of it has widespread support among the Israeli people, whether Left, Right, Druse or Bedouin.
>>>
>>> They are split by a decisive majority. Few want hardnut zionists in power that invariably assume power in Israel, who have repeatedly shown zero tolerance to Palestinians, and hence laying the foundations for reciprocal hatred to fester. I have presented you with links showing such intolerance only for you to deny them outright. Facts and reports that you cannot deal with. Do you wish for me to post the hundreds of them? Because while I have better things to do, I can and I will. As has also been said here recently, when Israel chooses more moderate politicians, the world and its real sympathies will change. But as the gang of hardliners continues to dominate, all that the world really sees is a Zionist thug in power, attacked by outside thugs. So sad for the ordinary people that live there. Don't you think they deserve much better?
>>>
>> There is no evidence that the Palestinians would be at all better off had Labor been in power forever. When there is a Palestinian entity that can be a peace partner, there will be peace. Whether it is a Palestinian state or a confederation with Jordan. In such a situation hard-right "thugs" will not be able to prevent it.
>>>> indicates no useful dialogue will ever be reached between us, or between Israel and those outside. Added to the fact that your little nazi fanboy clutters any dialogue with its infantile ramblings, makes it mandatory for me to not waste my time here until music that is pertinent to my taste is ever discussed.
>>>
>>>> Our exchanges are always of the sames type.
>>>
>>> Then why do you continue unless prepared for reasoned and fair dialogue, of which you are incapable of?
>>>
>>> -You say something and I challenge it (usually with facts).
>>>
>>> Lol. It is you that is the denier. Everytime. Do not confuse your facts with your own twisted opinions.
>>>
>>> -Then you whine and say there is no use talking to me. You are capable only of spouting a --------party line (talking points, if you prefer). You never engage at all. I'm content with that.
>>>
>>> It is impossible to engage with you because you are far too blinkered and utterly biased. When confronted with reports detailing mistreatment of Palestinians you deny them outright. Or are you now going to deal with and fully engage with the 100s of reports I can send? Would be a turnup for the books. But I know you won't.
>>>
>>>> I don't know if I have a fanboy, because I don't know that that is nor who you are referring to.
>>>
>>> You are also now a liar.
>>>
>> Stupid perhaps, but not a liar.
>>
>>> Ray Hall, Taree
>>
>> I have asked you what Israel's response to Oct 7 should have been.
>
> A swift and punishing reaction was wholly justifiable. Without question.
>
That would simply be revenge. That is not the purpose of the war. It is to rid Gaza of Hamas, which would be as beneficial to Gazans as Israelis. Considering the goal Israel's response has been moderate and totally proper, even under International Law, despite what idiots say.

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