The end of this essay is a little off the wall
in gloominess. Of course old recordings can
be matched and made even better. It just won't
happen with our current system that favors
monopolism in all fields.

Record Label News

Pentatone is now US-owned, no longer Dutch. It is a project of
the San Francisco Conservatory of Music. It was founded about 20
years ago by former Philips executives, when Universal cancelled
the Philips label.

Universal owns Avi as well as Decca and DG.

Delos has been sold to the Outhere label group (Belgium), which
also owns Linn, Channel, Ramee, Alpha, Fuga Libera, Phi, Arcana,
Analekta, and Ricerar.

Bis has been sold to Apple Music. (What does that mean for CD
Collectors?)

It is usually true that when a large company absorbs a smaller
one, the losers are the customers, because the selection shrinks.
For example, a great deal of what we like to eat has been
eliminated that way in the food industry. The big companies want
to sell more of less (fewer items, less work). And they are
buying out the competition in a few key products, so the other
products don't matter. They buy up a smaller company and
eliminate half of what they used to make. A great many foods are
no longer available -- no matter the ridiculous size of the
average supermarket. (I have a list of 40 food items that I like
but are no longer available because the company was bought out).
In the record industry that also proves to be the case. I knew
the people who ran these record labels. They perhaps fear that
we are all getting too old to put in the work required to keep
things going. Some are braving it out (into their 70s and 80s),
but others are selling out. Many think the industry is dying, so
why keep up the struggle for quality?

A golden era in the recording industry is ending. Committee
decisions (often strictly financial) have been replacing the
seasoned aesthetic judgement of one or two very knowledgeable
people. The fact that someone has a recording no longer
indicates quality -- and that is of course beginning diluted.
That's the way everything is going. But part of the problem is
simply that people die -- so many great conductors, pianists, and
violinists are no longer with us. Most of the great recordings
from the 1960s and 70s will never be matched, let alone
superseded.

-- from American Record Guide, March/April 2024, page 12

In article <0001HW.2BB12ACE07C05CEE30D72938F@news.giganews.com>,
Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> wrote:
>A golden era in the recording industry is ending. Committee decisions
>(often strictly financial) have been replacing the seasoned aesthetic
>judgement of one or two very knowledgeable people.

Nah. There are more small record companies than ever. But for the
big labels, yes. And yes, some good labels get absorbed, often
because their proprietors get old, but 10 more start....

On 25/03/2024 3:35 pm, Todd M. McComb wrote:
>
> The end of this essay is a little off the wall
> in gloominess. Of course old recordings can
> be matched and made even better. It just won't
> happen with our current system that favors
> monopolism in all fields.
>
> Record Label News
>
> Pentatone is now US-owned, no longer Dutch. It is a project of
> the San Francisco Conservatory of Music. It was founded about 20
> years ago by former Philips executives, when Universal cancelled
> the Philips label.
>
> Universal owns Avi as well as Decca and DG.
>
> Delos has been sold to the Outhere label group (Belgium), which
> also owns Linn, Channel, Ramee, Alpha, Fuga Libera, Phi, Arcana,
> Analekta, and Ricerar.
>
> Bis has been sold to Apple Music. (What does that mean for CD
> Collectors?)
>
> It is usually true that when a large company absorbs a smaller
> one, the losers are the customers, because the selection shrinks.
> For example, a great deal of what we like to eat has been
> eliminated that way in the food industry. The big companies want
> to sell more of less (fewer items, less work). And they are
> buying out the competition in a few key products, so the other
> products don't matter. They buy up a smaller company and
> eliminate half of what they used to make. A great many foods are
> no longer available -- no matter the ridiculous size of the
> average supermarket. (I have a list of 40 food items that I like
> but are no longer available because the company was bought out).
> In the record industry that also proves to be the case. I knew
> the people who ran these record labels. They perhaps fear that
> we are all getting too old to put in the work required to keep
> things going. Some are braving it out (into their 70s and 80s),
> but others are selling out. Many think the industry is dying, so
> why keep up the struggle for quality?
>
> A golden era in the recording industry is ending. Committee
> decisions (often strictly financial) have been replacing the
> seasoned aesthetic judgement of one or two very knowledgeable
> people. The fact that someone has a recording no longer
> indicates quality -- and that is of course beginning diluted.
> That's the way everything is going. But part of the problem is
> simply that people die -- so many great conductors, pianists, and
> violinists are no longer with us. Most of the great recordings
> from the 1960s and 70s will never be matched, let alone
> superseded.

The above paragraph indicates fully why all those CDs in our collection,
of recordings from 1955 - 2005, are especially treasurable. Not that
some more contemporary recordings are not worth having, but the really
great recordings have already been laid down, and in the can, by and large.

Orchestras especially, these days, seem to be content to eke out a
living with "pop" style dirigents who make life easy for them (and why
not if one is in an orchestra), and who can conduct the scores, but with
small premium given as to whether these podium "wizards" really know the
music as well as the ancients did.

One aspect concerns me, and not being a marketing person, is that Amazon
are selling new Naxoii for $45 Aus each, (I checked out the newer Villa
Lobos cello concertos with the Sao Paulo orchestra), and older releases
are going for $25. There was a time ..... when these things were much
cheaper.

Ray Hall, Taree

Raymond Hall wrote:
>
> One aspect concerns me, and not being
> a marketing person, is that Amazon are
> selling new Naxoii for $45 Aus each,
> (I checked out the newer Villa Lobos
> cello concertos with the Sao Paulo
> orchestra), and older releases are
> going for $25. There was a time
> ..... when these things were much
> cheaper.

Many Naxoii show up on YouTube on
Naxos' own channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@naxosvideos

Happy Downloads to the Land Down Under!

Cheers

"a great deal of what we like to eat has been
eliminated that way in the food industry. The big companies want
to sell more of less (fewer items, less work).[...] A great many foods are
no longer available -- no matter the ridiculous size of the
average supermarket."

I have no idea who wrote this self-indulgently pessimistic article - the smell of Boomer Ennui is stifling. Maybe he lives in Podunk, Central Dakota. However most people's experience will be that the availability of all kinds of exotic food ingredients has waxed enormously the past thirty years. So much so, that a countermovement saying 'eat local stuff' has also grown.

Maybe the writer should avoid "the average supermarket"? Other than this I'm not too hot about the music - food analogy. It brings one to Stupid Land.

As Todd has commented, there are so many small labels and recording units putting out niche stuff i.e. not the millionth recording of Chopin, Beethoven or other cheapo stuff that's been recorded and performed to death. That market is dying of old age.

"Orchestras especially, these days, seem to be content to eke out a
living with "pop" style dirigents who make life easy for them (and why
not if one is in an orchestra), and who can conduct the scores, but with
small premium given as to whether these podium "wizards" really know the
music as well as the ancients did."

It's all a case of putting one's money where one's mouth is.

Go to concerts with exciting programming (for instance, with some post 1945 works on the program) or with conductors who are also composers.

Stop complaining about Makela, Dudamel or Yuja and start talking about exciting creative musicians and conductors.

On 25/03/2024 8:14 pm, Herman wrote:
> "Orchestras especially, these days, seem to be content to eke out a
> living with "pop" style dirigents who make life easy for them (and why
> not if one is in an orchestra), and who can conduct the scores, but with
> small premium given as to whether these podium "wizards" really know the
> music as well as the ancients did."
>
> It's all a case of putting one's money where one's mouth is.
>
> Go to concerts with exciting programming (for instance, with some post
> 1945 works on the program) or with conductors who are also composers.
>
> Stop complaining about Makela, Dudamel or Yuja and start talking about
> exciting creative musicians and conductors.

I have fewer options here than some have in major cities elsewhere in
the world, or in much larger towns than I live in. In addition I'm not
complaining, but essentially making observations. As I stated, I have a
CD library at home of the good stuff. I come here to get to know who
might be making a name for themselves at the moment.

Nowadays, I get more fun out of playing music than listening.

Ray Hall, Taree

"I get more fun out of playing music than listening"

excellent! so do we.

In article <f23ae82b62c9730e6dd26e8247adf4c0@www.novabbs.com>,
Herman <herst@online.nl> wrote:
>However most people's experience will be that the availability of
>all kinds of exotic food ingredients has waxed enormously the past
>thirty years.

I thought he must be lamenting some particular processed or canned
foods, etc. I guess if that's what you like....

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 20:45:18 -0700, Pluted Pup wrote:

>
> The end of this essay is a little off the wall
> in gloominess. Of course old recordings can
> be matched and made even better. It just won't
> happen with our current system that favors
> monopolism in all fields.
>
> Record Label News
>
> Pentatone is now US-owned, no longer Dutch. It is a project of
> the San Francisco Conservatory of Music. It was founded about 20
> years ago by former Philips executives, when Universal cancelled
> the Philips label.
>
> Universal owns Avi as well as Decca and DG.
>
> Delos has been sold to the Outhere label group (Belgium), which
> also owns Linn, Channel, Ramee, Alpha, Fuga Libera, Phi, Arcana,
> Analekta, and Ricerar.
>
> Bis has been sold to Apple Music. (What does that mean for CD
> Collectors?)
>
> It is usually true that when a large company absorbs a smaller
> one, the losers are the customers, because the selection shrinks.
> For example, a great deal of what we like to eat has been
> eliminated that way in the food industry. The big companies want
> to sell more of less (fewer items, less work). And they are
> buying out the competition in a few key products, so the other
> products don't matter. They buy up a smaller company and
> eliminate half of what they used to make. A great many foods are
> no longer available -- no matter the ridiculous size of the
> average supermarket. (I have a list of 40 food items that I like
> but are no longer available because the company was bought out).
> In the record industry that also proves to be the case. I knew
> the people who ran these record labels. They perhaps fear that
> we are all getting too old to put in the work required to keep
> things going. Some are braving it out (into their 70s and 80s),
> but others are selling out. Many think the industry is dying, so
> why keep up the struggle for quality?
>
> A golden era in the recording industry is ending. Committee
> decisions (often strictly financial) have been replacing the
> seasoned aesthetic judgement of one or two very knowledgeable
> people. The fact that someone has a recording no longer
> indicates quality -- and that is of course beginning diluted.

"becoming diluted"

> That's the way everything is going. But part of the problem is
> simply that people die -- so many great conductors, pianists, and
> violinists are no longer with us. Most of the great recordings
> from the 1960s and 70s will never be matched, let alone
> superseded.
>
> -- from American Record Guide, March/April 2024, page 12

Pluted Pup wrote
>
> Most of the great recordings
> from the 1960s and 70s will
> never be matched, let alone
> superseded.
>
> -- from American Record Guide,
> March/April 2024, page 12

Sez Vroon? Is he referring to
performance quality, recording
quality, or both? In any case,
he is plainly wrong. There is
no shortage of performances
recorded since the 1970s that
are not just better, but far
better than those rcorded
earlier. Vroon was born in
the 1940s, he probably lost
his hearing 20+ years ago.

Can you provide even a single
example of a performance from
the 1960s/70s that has yet to
be matched? In your opinion of
course.

Thanks!

DeepBlue wrote:

> Pluted Pup wrote
>>
>> Most of the great recordings
>> from the 1960s and 70s will
>> never be matched, let alone
>> superseded.
>>
>> -- from American Record Guide,
>> March/April 2024, page 12

> Sez Vroon? Is he referring to
> performance quality, recording
> quality, or both? In any case,
> he is plainly wrong. There is
> no shortage of performances
> recorded since the 1970s that
> are not just better, but far
> better than those rcorded
> earlier. Vroon was born in
> the 1940s, he probably lost
> his hearing 20+ years ago.

> Can you provide even a single
> example of a performance from
> the 1960s/70s that has yet to
> be matched? In your opinion of
> course.

From Vroon's own autobiographical
intro on ARG's web site it appears
"he lives in Cincinnati for the low
cost, the climate, and the orchestra".

Huh? Cincinnati "orchestra"? What
orchestra ?!?

If one parses correctly the list of
ARG "contributors" enumerated on

https://www.americanrecordguide.com/meet-the-critics/

to the extent one can judge from
their biographies they all appear
to be old white males "educated"
on the East Coast. What a zoo!

Cheers

Raymond Hall wrote:

> The above paragraph indicates fully why all those CDs in our collection,
> of recordings from 1955 - 2005, are especially treasurable. Not that
> some more contemporary recordings are not worth having, but the really
> great recordings have already been laid down, and in the can, by and large.

It follows that if the really great recordings have already been made, then there's no point making new ones. All you have to do is issue boxed sets every few years for those who still demand physical media, a category that is going to get smaller and smaller.

> One aspect concerns me, and not being a marketing person, is that Amazon
> are selling new Naxoii for $45 Aus each, (I checked out the newer Villa
> Lobos cello concertos with the Sao Paulo orchestra), and older releases
> are going for $25. There was a time ..... when these things were much
> cheaper.

> Ray Hall, Taree

Ray, Presto Music will sell you the Villa-Lobos CD for AUD$22.00 and the FLAC download for AUD$21.75.

Meanwhile, Big Dave's reference recording of Bach's St Matthew Passion is the Klemperer recording first released in 1962 with Peter Pears (Evangelist), Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (Christus), Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (soprano), Christa Ludwig (alto), Nicolai Gedda (tenor), Walter Berry (baritone) and the Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus. The reference recordings of the Brahms cycle are of course Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer. For the last six Mozart symphonies, it's Bruno Walter again, and for the Mozart piano concertos, it's Geza Anda with the Camerata Academica des Mozarteum Salzburgs. Back to the Good Old Days indeed.

Andrew and Ermintrude Clarke
Canberra

'Back to the Good Old Days indeed.'

It's not just the age of the Vroons and Hurwitzers, it's also the age and taste of the people they're opining for.
Hurwitz, for instance, is clearly aiming to please his audience when he is screaming and clown-yelling about the horrors of period ensembles, because to his audience HIP is a new fad - even though HIP dates back to the seventies.

both are entertaining a fast dwindling audience of people for whom the imprint decade was around 1960. Hence all the Szellitude and Walterism. Both were excellent musicians, but most of what they did has been superseded many times.

Herman wrote:

> 'Back to the Good Old Days indeed.'

> It's not just the age of the Vroons and Hurwitzers, it's also the age and taste of the people they're opining for.
> Hurwitz, for instance, is clearly aiming to please his audience when he is screaming and clown-yelling about the horrors of period ensembles, because to his audience HIP is a new fad - even though HIP dates back to the seventies.

> both are entertaining a fast dwindling audience of people for whom the imprint decade was around 1960.

According to Hurwitz around 1960 good orchestras only existed in the USA.
And most of those "reference recordings" were "reference recordings" then, in that period. Not now. So a weird subject for tons of videos daily.

"According to Hurwitz around 1960 good orchestras only existed in the USA."

Shades of Ansermet Maniac and his belief that no one outside NYC or Chicago could play horn.

Herman <herst@online.nl> wrote:
> "According to Hurwitz around 1960 good orchestras only existed in the USA."
>
> Shades of Ansermet Maniac and his belief that no one outside NYC or
> Chicago could play horn.
>

Actually, he hated the brass players in Chicago. Basically, according to
him, unless you were a brass player in New York during Toscanini’’s time
there, you were a failure.

—
Paul Goodman

"unless you were a brass player in New York during Toscanini’’s time
there, you were a failure."

Haha, I forgot. I didn't read those diatribes that closely...

Herman wrote:

> "unless you were a brass player in New
> York during Toscanini’’s time there,
> you were a failure."

See? I told you Toscanini was a military
band leader! ;-)

He had not heard the Russian brass players.
They blew everyone else out of the water! ;-)

Cheers

Paul Goodman wrote:
>
> Actually, he hated the brass players in Chicago.
> Basically, according to him, unless you were a
> brass player in New York during Toscanini’’s
> time there, you were a failure.

See? I told you Toscanini was a military band
konduktor! ;-)

He had not heard the Russian brass players.
They blew everyone else out of the water! ;-)

Cheers

On 29/03/2024 12:53 am, ermintrudethecat wrote:
> Raymond Hall wrote:
>
>
>> The above paragraph indicates fully why all those CDs in our
>> collection, of recordings from 1955 - 2005, are especially
>> treasurable. Not that some more contemporary recordings are not worth
>> having, but the really great recordings have already been laid down,
>> and in the can, by and large.
>
> It follows that if the really great recordings have already been made,
> then there's no point making new ones. All you have to do is issue boxed
> sets every few years for those who still demand physical media, a
> category that is going to get smaller and smaller.
>
>
>> One aspect concerns me, and not being a marketing person, is that
>> Amazon are selling new Naxoii for $45 Aus each, (I checked out the
>> newer Villa Lobos cello concertos with the Sao Paulo orchestra), and
>> older releases are going for $25. There was a time ..... when these
>> things were much cheaper.
>
>> Ray Hall, Taree
>
> Ray, Presto Music will sell you the Villa-Lobos CD for AUD$22.00 and the
> FLAC download for AUD$21.75.
>
> Meanwhile, Big Dave's reference recording of Bach's St Matthew Passion
> is the Klemperer recording first released in 1962 with Peter Pears
> (Evangelist), Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (Christus), Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
> (soprano), Christa Ludwig (alto), Nicolai Gedda (tenor), Walter Berry
> (baritone) and the Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus. The reference
> recordings of the Brahms cycle are of course Bruno Walter and Otto
> Klemperer. For the last six Mozart symphonies, it's Bruno Walter again,
> and for the Mozart piano concertos, it's Geza Anda with the Camerata
> Academica des Mozarteum Salzburgs. Back to the Good Old Days indeed.
>
> Andrew and Ermintrude Clarke
> Canberra

Thanks, will have to start using Presto again. As for the Brahms
rackets, I still have Bruno Walter's on individual CDs, the first and
still the best, although it is years since I felt the urge to listen to
the 4 rackets. Nice tunes, lousy and muddy orchestration. If anything,
Brahms was a decent tunesmith.

Ray Hall, Taree

"As for the Brahms
rackets, I still have Bruno Walter's on individual CDs, the first and
still the best, although it is years since I felt the urge to listen to
the 4 rackets. Nice tunes, lousy and muddy orchestration. If anything,
Brahms was a decent tunesmith."

well, that is exactly why it's getting time to start listening to recordings made AFTER the Golden Era of Muddy Orchestral Recordings, also known as the Age of a Thousand Violins.

It's not Brahms's orchestration that was lousy. It's Walter and his studio people who made it sound lousy.

DeepBlue wrote:
>
> Herman wrote:
>
>> "unless you were a brass player in New
>> York during Toscanini’’s time there,
>> you were a failure."
>
> See? I told you Toscanini was a military
> band leader! ;-)
>
> He had not heard the Russian brass players.
> They blew everyone else out of the water! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh-gJTQCXXE

Cheers!

DeepBlue wrote:
>
> DeepBlue wrote:
>>
>> Herman wrote:
>>
>>> "unless you were a brass player in New
>>> York during Toscanini’’s time there,
>>> you were a failure."
>>
>> See? I told you Toscanini was a military
>> band leader! ;-)
>>
>> He had not heard the Russian brass players.
>> They blew everyone else out of the water! ;-)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh-gJTQCXXE

Boston not bad either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncttb3IQPGU

On 29/03/2024 12:53 am, ermintrudethecat wrote:
> Raymond Hall wrote:
>
>
>> The above paragraph indicates fully why all those CDs in our
>> collection, of recordings from 1955 - 2005, are especially
>> treasurable. Not that some more contemporary recordings are not worth
>> having, but the really great recordings have already been laid down,
>> and in the can, by and large.
>
> It follows that if the really great recordings have already been made,
> then there's no point making new ones. All you have to do is issue boxed
> sets every few years for those who still demand physical media, a
> category that is going to get smaller and smaller.
>
>
>> One aspect concerns me, and not being a marketing person, is that
>> Amazon are selling new Naxoii for $45 Aus each, (I checked out the
>> newer Villa Lobos cello concertos with the Sao Paulo orchestra), and
>> older releases are going for $25. There was a time ..... when these
>> things were much cheaper.
>
>> Ray Hall, Taree
>
> Ray, Presto Music will sell you the Villa-Lobos CD for AUD$22.00 and the
> FLAC download for AUD$21.75.
>
> Meanwhile, Big Dave's reference recording of Bach's St Matthew Passion
> is the Klemperer recording first released in 1962 with Peter Pears
> (Evangelist), Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (Christus), Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
> (soprano), Christa Ludwig (alto), Nicolai Gedda (tenor), Walter Berry
> (baritone) and the Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus. The reference
> recordings of the Brahms cycle are of course Bruno Walter and Otto
> Klemperer. For the last six Mozart symphonies, it's Bruno Walter again,
> and for the Mozart piano concertos, it's Geza Anda with the Camerata
> Academica des Mozarteum Salzburgs. Back to the Good Old Days indeed.
>
> Andrew and Ermintrude Clarke
> Canberra

Andrew, I'm intending to download Temirkanov's Tchaikovsky symphonies
(with the RPO) plus a few extras pieces. I intend to use VLC as the
player for these FLAC files (same price as mp3 from Presto at present).

What and how do these files appear when I download them? Does each piece
of music come as a separate flac file? Or what?

Anyone know? TIA.

Ray Hall, Taree