https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/21/we-are-about-to-witness-the-most-intense-famine-since-world-war-ii-in-gaza

On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 16:15:19 -0700, Gerard wrote:

> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/21/we-are-about-to-witness-the-most-intense-famine-since-world-war-ii-in-gaza

It's a new Purim! Upgraded with new technology!

"In Gaza, Israel knows every calorie that´s available. In 2008, the coordinator of government activities in the territories calculated every aspect of Gaza´s food production and consumption, in minute detail, and extracted the "red lines" needed to keep Palestinians on what it called a "diet", just short of starvation.

My guess is Israel is going to push for mass deportations
of all Palestinians onto the countries that have been
foolish enough to support Israel, like the USA, Canada and
Germany. That it hasn't happened already is solely due to
the virtue of antisemitism. But will there always be
enough antisemitism to prevent the deportation and forced immigration?

Gerard wrote:

> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/21/we-are-about-to-witness-the-most-intense-famine-since-world-war-ii-in-gaza

The Guardian is well known for
its anti-semitic, anti-Zionist,
and anti-Israel stance. It is
no longer reporting facts, it
is now engaging in projections
and speculations.

Why don't you go listen to
some Vivaldi and shut up
your fucking mouth?

Cheers!

This is very good to hear, the people in Gaza are mostly Gerards ;)

On 3/25/2024 12:31 AM, DeepBlue wrote:
> Gerard wrote:
>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/21/we-are-about-to-witness-the-most-intense-famine-since-world-war-ii-in-gaza
>
> The Guardian is well known for its anti-semitic, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israel stance. It is no longer reporting facts, it is now engaging in projections and speculations.
> Why don't you go listen to some Vivaldi and shut up your fucking mouth?
> Cheers!
As I've asked before, with no answers, why would a thinking person believe Hamas-generated statistics? Not to mention the fact that Hamas does not report, separately, combatant and non-combatant casualties. Are the monsters who came across the border on Oct. 7, killing, raping, mutilating and kidnapping, who were not members of Hamas non-combatants? How about their the mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles and cousins of Hamas members and "civilian" murders who applaud every terrorist act against Jews as if it were the coming of the Messiah or winning the World Cup or whatever. Are they civilian non-combatants? On one level Herman was right about the situation being complex. On another, it is amazing simple. One side is essentially good, the other evil. The same people who believe in Hamas' statistics believe that if Israel suddenly abandon the West Bank and turned over to the Palestinians for a State, that peace between the two states would ensue. How can this be explained when the Palestinian leaders say the opposite - that the goal is the elimination of Israel.
I propose that some people really are stupid and believe these things, others are not stupid but for one reason or another do believe them (wishful thinking, being duped, e.g.). And of course there is the third group that consists mostly of intelligent people, who hate Israel, hate Jews and would say or do anything to hasten their extinction.

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> This is very good to hear, the
> people in Gaza are mostly Gerards ;)

Not exclusively. Some are Hermans,
Andys and Rays as well. And some
are even pluted! The latter form
the higher echelons of government
and of Hamas. Being pluted is the
highest distinction one can aspire
to in Gaza.

FB: 'why would a thinking person believe Hamas-generated statistics?'

Because they have in the past proved accurate. That's why the US for instance accepts the numbers.

Your assumption and that of your friends is that Palestinians are inferior people who cannot keep records or count. That's why it's okay if they and their infants get killed in large numbers. Your firneds on this group are calling for the entire Gaza strip to be flattened. There are plans for resettlement by... those settlers you said weren't there.

Calling people with more information 'stupid' is not the most elegant rethorical method.

Your attitude brings the German 'wit haben es nicht gewusst' to mind, and it reminds one that this ignorance wasn't just lack of info but a wilful act. 'We don't want to know / We just want to win.'

The Oct 7 attack was horrendous and retaliation in proportion was necessary. However, what's happening now is a an unwinnable war with no exit strategy whatsoever. Also this massive violence and destruction is sure to be a breeding ground for new generations of terrorists.

Herman wrote:

> The Oct 7 attack was horrendous and
> retaliation in proportion was necessary.

It wasn't just a random terrorist attack.
It was one nation attacking another nation.
How about the thousands of rockets fired at
Israel?

And what exactly would be "in proportion"?

Here's some context for you to ruminate on.

On December 7, 1941 the Imperial Japanese
Navy attacked the US Naval Base at Pearl
Harbour by surprise, killing more than
2,000 people and sinking or damaging
more than 20 US ships.

The US waged war on Japan in response,
killing more than 2 million Japanese
military and civilians, pushing all
the way to Tokyo, and occupying the
country for almost 7 years after it
surrendered unconditionally. What
was the "retaliation in proportion"?
Where was the "genocide" ?!?

On June 22, 1941 Germany attacked
Russia by surprise. Russia waged
war on Germany in response, not
stopping until it occupied the
latter forcing it to surrender.
What was the "retaliation in
proportion"? Where was the
"genocide" ?!?

You and your fellow Goudas do not
understand a very simple fact of
life: one goes to war to destroy
one's enemy, not just to "teach
them a lesson".

Your ethical pretense amounts to
nothing more than denying Israel,
and by implication the Jewish
people, the right to defend
themselves. Pure antisemitism.
No more, no less, and nothing
else.

Frank Berger wrote:

"it is amazing simple. One side is essentially good, the other evil."

This probably is the most stupid thing that can be said about this subject.
It is denying more than 70 years of facts.

Gerard wrote:
>
> Frank Berger wrote:
>
> "it is amazing simple. One side is
> essentially good, the other evil."
>
> This probably is the most stupid thing
> that can be said about this subject.
> It is denying more than 70 years of
> facts.

What "facts" ?!? Can you elaborate?
Can you enumerate the "facts"?

Maybe you can comment as well on
the 3000 years of facts that
preceded the 70 years of your
"facts"? History did not start
in 1948.

Idiot!

Gerard wrote:

> Frank Berger wrote:

> "it is amazing simple. One side is essentially good, the other evil."

> This probably is the most stupid thing that can be said about this subject.

Not really, it's spot on. Similar to Nazi-Germany vs the allies -- one side is good, the other is evil.

> It is denying more than 70 years of facts.

You mean 70 years of the fakestinians trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel - lol.

JudeoN4zi wrote:
>
> Gerard wrote:
>
>> It is denying more than 70 years of facts.
>
> You mean 70 years of the fakestinians trying
> to kill Jews and destroy Israel - lol.

Not to mention the previous 3000 years of facts.

On 3/26/2024 3:44 AM, Herman wrote:
> FB: 'why would a thinking person believe Hamas-generated statistics?'
>
> Because they have in the past proved accurate.

Evidence for that?

That's why the US for instance accepts the numbers.
>

Biden himself questioned the numbers.

> Your assumption and that of your friends

I have no friends here.

> is that Palestinians are inferior people

Pure slander. I do not believe that any human is inherently inferior to any other human. I judge people only by their individual statements and actions, not by the group you assign them to. You forget that Radical Islamists call Jews pigs and vermin and such. Jews do not reciprocate.

> who cannot keep records or count.

Somehow you overlook that the "charge" is that they willfully distort the number for effect, not that they are incompetent. There are numerous sources on the web indicating obvious manipulation of the statistics. I previously mentioned that the statistics do not distinguish between terrorists and civilians. On some days only female deaths were reported, another only children. It was an obvious attempt to (in this case incompetently) fabricate numbers.

> That's why it's okay if they and their infants get killed in large numbers.

As long as the war continues (with Israel pursuing the end of Hamas ruling Gaza), there can not be too many Hamas deaths.

> Your firneds on this group are calling for the entire Gaza strip to be flattened. There are plans for resettlement by... those settlers you said weren't there.

I have heard a few nuts calling for this. It is not to be taken seriously. Unless you want to besmirch Jews in general for wanting to kill Palestinians.

>
> Calling people with more information 'stupid' is not the most elegant rethorical method.

Did I do that? People who think they have more information than they do are, by definition, ignorant, not stupid. The one-sided bashers of Israel are either ignorant or evil. Since I seem not to able to convince the ignorant of anything, and can't cure evil, it doesn't matter to me which they are.

>

> Your attitude brings the German 'wit haben es nicht gewusst' to mind, and it reminds one that this ignorance wasn't just lack of info but a wilful act. 'We don't want to know / We just want to win.'

This is exactly what I think you and YOUR friends do. Exactly.

>
> The Oct 7 attack was horrendous and retaliation in proportion was necessary. However,

Retaliation has no purpose. That isn't remotely related to what Israel is trying to do. They are trying, as they have said, to eliminate Hamas's rule over Gaza and therefore its ability to kill, kidnap rape and mutilate Israeli citizens; any government would do; has to do. By "proportionality," you must mean that Israel should have killed, mutilated, raped and kidnapped around 1200 people, is that right? Oh, maybe you'd allow 1500 or even 2000. Maybe not. In warfare "proportionality" means not using force excessive to the objective. In that regard Israel has used considerable restraint. They attack ONLY strategic targets, and quite famously have allowed people to move from more dangerous ares to less dangerous.

I truly believe that if Iran did to a couple of thousand Europeans (what they, via their proxies) did to Jews on Oct 7, that you wouldn't object to a military attempt to end the Ayatollahs' rule over Iran, along with the thousands of collateral casualties that would occur.

I don't think you hate Jews. i think you hate the idea of Israel and then rationalize that nearly all Israeli actions are bad. Only serious self-reflection could possibly change this. Evidence can't.

Do you remember the incident early on where nearly everyone bought, hook, line and sinker, Hamas' claim that Israel attacked and flattened a hospital, killing hundreds. Practically everyone was outraged (never mind that outrage isn't the appropriate response to an event that would more likely be accidental than deliberate). Of course, if you are an Israel hater, you have no problem assuming the attack was deliberate. Of course it turned out that the incident was a Hamas rocket going off course and exploded in a parking lot next to the hospital. No hospital destruction, no mass deaths, no attack, deliberate or otherwise. I cite this incident as typical of Israel's treatment by most of the media and you and YOUR friends.

what's happening now is a an unwinnable war with no exit strategy whatsoever. Also this massive violence and destruction is sure to be a breeding ground for new generations of terrorists.

FB:

"In that regard Israel has used considerable restraint. They attack ONLY strategic targets, and quite famously"

You're either lying through your teeth, or you're just fabulously underinformed, deliberatedly.

Gaza kids as tiny as three-year olds are presented to surgeons with clean single gunshots to the head or chest, which means IDF snipers are targeting kids this small, in this war of elimination, if you prefer this word to genocide.

The IDF troops who blew up the World Central Kitchen cars knew what they were doing. Israel kills and detroys all food help and every means of combating famine in Gaza. Famine is an accepted weapon for Israel.

The IDF used an Artificial Intellignece program to kill Palestinians and destroy Gaza. These programs were in place before Oct 7.

"I truly believe that if Iran did to a couple of thousand Europeans (what they, via their proxies) did to Jews on Oct 7, that you wouldn't object to a military attempt to end the Ayatollahs' rule over Iran, along with the thousands of collateral casualties that would occur."

Yeah, but these IF hypotheses aren't real. Besides, Israel is not attempting to end a leadership. It's attempting to end a population.

"I don't think you hate Jews. i think you hate the idea of Israel and then rationalize that nearly all Israeli actions are bad."

Well, it's good to see that first assertion. TBH, even though some of my friends have relatives in Israel, normally "Israel" does not occupy my mind a lot. All of those friends are solidly anti-Netanyahu btw and they would be among the people demonstrating every day in the streets in Israel. However, of course they do not live in Israel by choice.

On 26/03/2024 6:44 pm, Herman wrote:
> On 3/25/2024 12:31 AM, DeepBlue wrote:
>> Gerard wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/21/we-are-about-to-witness-the-most-intense-famine-since-world-war-ii-in-gaza
>>
>> The Guardian is well known for its anti-semitic, anti-Zionist, and
>> anti-Israel stance. It is no longer reporting facts, it is now
>> engaging in projections and speculations.
>> Why don't you go listen to some Vivaldi and shut up your fucking mouth?
>> Cheers!
>
> As I've asked before, with no answers, why would a thinking person
> believe Hamas-generated statistics?  Not to mention the fact that Hamas
> does not report, separately, combatant and non-combatant casualties.
> Are the monsters who came across the border on Oct. 7, killing, raping,
> mutilating and kidnapping, who were not members of Hamas
> non-combatants?  How about their the mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles and
> cousins of Hamas members and "civilian" murders who applaud every
> terrorist act against Jews as if it were the coming of the Messiah or
> winning the World Cup or whatever.  Are they civilian non-combatants?
> On one level Herman was right about the situation being complex.  On
> another, it is amazing simple.   One side is essentially good, the other
> evil. The same people who believe in Hamas' statistics believe that if
> Israel suddenly abandon the West Bank and turned over to the
> Palestinians for a State, that peace between the two states would
> ensue.  How can this be explained when the Palestinian leaders say the
> opposite - that the goal is the elimination of Israel.
>
> I propose that some people really are stupid and believe these things,
> others are not stupid but for one reason or another do believe them
> (wishful thinking, being duped, e.g.).  And of course there is the third
> group that consists mostly of intelligent people, who hate Israel, hate
> Jews and would say or do anything to hasten their extinction.

Above is so ludicrous it defies all belief in humanity. But our rabid
fascists might actually believe this tripe. So what else is new?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Ray Hall, Taree

Recently the famous primatologist Frans de Waal died, unfortuntely. He wrote some wonderful books about chimps and bonobos and, per implication, about human life. Ultimately his work is a contribution to philosophy.

In a talk he mentioned a book with the puzzling title 'The Successful Animal' which was supposed to refer to humankind. 'I don't understand the title,' De Waal said. 'I don't see a lot of success.'

He did not say it in that many words, but it was clear he did not see a bright future for the human race. de Waal and his wife were childless.

There are so many serious war zones in the planet right now; there is no way to end these conflicts. We're sitting on a keg of dynamite; the impact on life is so bad, and yet some people clearly regard these disastrous developments as a source of pleasure, even here on a tiny music news group. The internet has damaged our ability to empathize with one another; this is a major contributor to the support for these wars.

Andy used to write about this, his sorrows for the younger generations. He was reviled for this.

On 4/04/2024 12:29 pm, Herman wrote:
> Recently the famous primatologist Frans de Waal died, unfortuntely. He
> wrote some wonderful books about chimps and bonobos and, per
> implication, about human life. Ultimately his work is a contribution to
> philosophy.
> In a talk he mentioned a book with the puzzling title 'The Successful
> Animal' which was supposed to refer to humankind. 'I don't understand
> the title,' De Waal said. 'I don't see a lot of success.'
> He did not say it in that many words, but it was clear he did not see a
> bright future for the human race. de Waal and his wife were childless.
>
> There are so many serious war zones in the planet right now; there is no
> way to end these conflicts. We're sitting on a keg of dynamite; the
> impact on life is so bad, and yet some people clearly regard these
> disastrous developments as a source of pleasure, even here on a tiny
> music news group. The internet has damaged our ability to empathize with
> one another; this is a major contributor to the support for these wars.
>
> Andy used to write about this, his sorrows for the younger generations.
> He was reviled for this.

Anyone that dares to speak truthfully about Israel will be reviled by
supporters of their fascist regime. De Waal was of course on target. But
even apes have morals.

Ray Hall, Taree

"De Waal was of course on target. But even apes have morals."

That was ultimately De Waals central point and his challenge to Kant.

Humans have not, through religion, found ethics. He was also suggesting humans aren't developing towards a higher sense of morals.

In article <ee950a57bbb62c776625c9d7a082a75f@www.novabbs.com>,
Herman <herst@online.nl> wrote:
>He was also suggesting humans aren't developing towards a higher
>sense of morals.

Well... we have plenty of people who want to do the right thing.
Sociopaths are generally about 10% of the population, and that's
held across cultures.... Our big problem is we keep putting these
people in charge! And no, it's not inevitable, but it's what's
happening even more lately....

Herman wrote:
>
> FB:
>
>> "In that regard Israel has used considerable restraint.
>> They attack ONLY strategic targets, and quite famously"
>
> You're either lying through your teeth, or you're just
> fabulously underinformed, deliberatedly.

Really? How are you better informed than Frank, or myself,
or Marc S., or other Jewish folks in this ng? Do you ever
read any sources other than Al-Jazer

> Gaza kids as tiny as three-year olds are presented to
> surgeons with clean single gunshots to the head or chest,

Most of the time single bullets result in clean wounds.
In and by themselves these are not evidence of intent,
or that the victim was deliberately shot. How about
these kids?

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2012/11/23/Foreign/Images/Mideast_Israel_Palestinians-097a3.jpg

https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-08-at-7.29.39-PM-e1433781710921.png

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/23/article-2237245-162DD21E000005DC-60_634x431.jpg

Do you believe anyone can tell from 200 yards if the
weapons are toys or real? Do you believe anyone can
tell if they are loaded? Or if the kid holding the
gun is going to fire it?

> which means IDF snipers are targeting kids this small,

Utter non-sense. It is obvious you have never been a
soldier, served in the military, or been involved in
war or military action. If you had you would know no
military on this planet would waste sniper time and
bullets to go after low value targets.

> in this war of elimination, if you prefer this word
> to genocide.

A nation that teaches kids to use weapons and to kill
Jews before they can even read has forfeited its right
to complain its kids are being killed by the enemies
they tried to kill themselves.

Take a close look at this photo:

https://cnn-arabic-images.cnn.io/cloudinary/image/upload/x_0,y_32,w_3287,h_1849,c_crop/w_1920,h_1008,c_fill,q_auto,g_center/t_cnnarabic_watermark_logo_v5/cnnarabic/2021/05/26/images/185724.jpg

> The IDF troops who blew up the World Central Kitchen
> cars knew what they were doing. Israel kills and
> detroys all food help and every means of combating
> famine in Gaza. Famine is an accepted weapon for
> Israel.

The IDF fired at the cars, not at their passengers.
Do you believe any soldier can tell from afar if
the vehicle carries nothing but food or water,
without any weapons hidden inside?

> The IDF used an Artificial Intellignece program to
> kill Palestinians and destroy Gaza. These programs
> were in place before Oct 7.

Setting aside for a moment the absurdity of such
statements, how would someone like you know about
it if it were indeed true? Not to mention software
does not kill people. Bullets kill people. Even
when they are fired in self defense.

The shitheads like yo, Gerard, Andy and Ray hold
this funny notion that Israel has the right to
defend itself, but only to the extent no one
gets killed. That is certainly possible in
operas, but doesn't quite work in the real
world.

FakeBlue:
"The IDF fired at the cars, not at their passengers.
Do you believe any soldier can tell from afar if
the vehicle carries nothing but food or water,
without any weapons hidden inside?"

You're literally willing to say anything, and lie more circles around anything, to justify more killing in Gaza.

Blowing apart three DRIVING cars means killing the occupants of said cars. Perhaps you think this is a video game.

The cars were marked as a humanitarian aid convoy. The IDF were told about this convoy.
That's why they were attacked.
The IDF / Israel doesn't want any humanitarian aid going into Gaza. That's why Gaza is facing famine. Israel is using famine as a war tool. Palestinians need to get out (which they can't) or die. Reminds you of anything? Nobody has any illusions about this any longer.

Your little butt boy friend said it most clearly. He wants to party in Gaza in 2025, when it's ethnically cleansed of any Palestinian presence.

On 4/4/2024 3:03 AM, Herman wrote:
> FakeBlue:
> "The IDF fired at the cars, not at their passengers. Do you believe any soldier can tell from afar if the vehicle carries nothing but food or water, without any weapons hidden inside?"
>
> You're literally willing to say anything, and lie more circles around anything, to justify more killing in Gaza.
>
> Blowing apart three DRIVING cars means killing the occupants of said cars. Perhaps you think this is a video game.
>
> The cars were marked as a humanitarian aid convoy. The IDF were told about this convoy.
> That's why they were attacked.
> The IDF / Israel doesn't want any humanitarian aid going into Gaza. That's why Gaza is facing famine. Israel is using famine as a war tool. Palestinians need to get out (which they can't) or die. Reminds you of anything? Nobody has any illusions about this any longer.
>
> Your little butt boy friend said it most clearly. He wants to party in Gaza in 2025, when it's ethnically cleansed of any Palestinian presence.

Can you share your source(s) of this "information?"

'Can you share your source(s) of this "information?" '

The attack on the World Kitchen convoy has been in pretty much every paper and serious news show.

President Biden, a person you may have heard of, has talked about it in no uncertain terms. You know what it means when a president makes public statements about things that happened? It's been checked and double checked at the highest level. It means they happened.

Next you're going to ask for proof the earth is round, putting the word 'round' between scare qoutes too?

Look, if you're too old or tired to keep up with things, that's okay. just give up in that case.

On 4/4/2024 11:33 PM, Herman wrote:
> 'Can you share your source(s) of this "information?" '
>
> The attack on the World Kitchen convoy has been in pretty much every paper and serious news show.
>
> President Biden, a person you may have heard of, has talked about it in no uncertain terms. You know what it means when a president makes public statements about things that happened? It's been checked and double checked at the highest level. It means they happened.
> Next you're going to ask for proof the earth is round, putting the word 'round' between scare qoutes too?
>
> Look, if you're too old or tired to keep up with things, that's okay. just give up in that case.

Since you often don't include information about the post you are replying to, I don't know if this is being asked of me?

If it is, I certainly never said there was no attack on the WC convoy. You made that up. The fact is that to assume such attacks are deliberate is pure bias? You may say my doubt that this type of thing is deliberate is also bias, but I reject that. My doubt is based on my knowledge of the Jewish people and their history and values. Israel is admitted the attack and has quickly determined the command and control failure that led to this tragedy. One officer has been dismissed his post. Go on and say it's a ruse to obfuscate Israel's genocidal policy.