"My Real Children" by Jo Walton
https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/

A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.

Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.

My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

Lynn

On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>
> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
> confused woman.  I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>
> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
> confused today".  Some days she remembers having four children and some
> days she remembers having three children.  Some days she remembers the
> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>
> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)

The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

On 3/3/2024 5:52 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>     https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>
>> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>> confused woman.  I read the well printed and well bound trade
>> paperback published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>
>> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in
>> England. Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and
>> "very confused today".  Some days she remembers having four children
>> and some days she remembers having three children.  Some days she
>> remembers the bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days
>> she remembers the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>
>> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
>> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>
> The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
> Are you sure?  Is she?  Why am I assuming
> that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
> nuclear exchange" timeline?  Maybe because
> television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
> had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
> Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
> Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

I assume that you read that this was an alternate history book.

In fact, this book has TWO alternate histories in it. The real history
time line is ignored by the book.

I decided not to put that in the review as it is a spoiler.

Lynn

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>    https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>
>> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>> confused woman.  I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>
>> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>> confused today".  Some days she remembers having four children and some
>> days she remembers having three children.  Some days she remembers the
>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>
>> My rating:  5 out of 5 stars
>> Amazon rating:  4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>
>The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.

Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
is not assassinated and its results.

They aren't pretty.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
(in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):

> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
> <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
> > > https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
> > >
> > > A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
> > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
> > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
> > >
> > > Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
> > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
> > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
> > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
> > > bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
> > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
> > >
> > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
> >
> > The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
> > Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
> > that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
> > nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
> > television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
> > had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
> > Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
> > Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>
> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
> is not assassinated and its results.
>
> They aren't pretty.

I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
seehttps://www.pinterest.com/pin/453667362456961194/ for an example) reverted
to type?

WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>(in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> > > "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>> > > https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>> > >
>> > > A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>> > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>> > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>> > >
>> > > Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>> > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>> > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>> > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>> > > bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>> > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>> > >
>> > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>> > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>> >
>> > The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>> > Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>> > that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>> > nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>> > television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>> > had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>> > Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>> > Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>
>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>
>> They aren't pretty.
>
>I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just

Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

Has nothing to do with the pastry.

On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
(in article <VQoFN.39118$zF_1.2602@fx18.iad>):

> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
> > On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
> > (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
> >
> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
> > > <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > > "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
> > > > > https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
> > > > >
> > > > > A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
> > > > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
> > > > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
> > > > >
> > > > > Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
> > > > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
> > > > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
> > > > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
> > > > > bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
> > > > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
> > > > >
> > > > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
> > > > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
> > > >
> > > > The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
> > > > Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
> > > > that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
> > > > nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
> > > > television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
> > > > had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
> > > > Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
> > > > Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
> > >
> > > Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
> > > is not assassinated and its results.
> > >
> > > They aren't pretty.
> >
> > I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>
> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>
> Has nothing to do with the pastry.

So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
improvement.

WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
>(in article <VQoFN.39118$zF_1.2602@fx18.iad>):
>
>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>> > On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>> > (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>> >
>> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>> > > <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> > > > > "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>> > > > > https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>> > > > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>> > > > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>> > > > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>> > > > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>> > > > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>> > > > > bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>> > > > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>> > > > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>> > > >
>> > > > The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>> > > > Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>> > > > that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>> > > > nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>> > > > television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>> > > > had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>> > > > Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>> > > > Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>> > >
>> > > Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>> > > is not assassinated and its results.
>> > >
>> > > They aren't pretty.
>> >
>> > I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>
>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>
>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>
>So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
>improvement.
>

The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
speaker who clearly understood.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
>>(in article <VQoFN.39118$zF_1.2602@fx18.iad>):
>>
>>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>> > On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>>> > (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>>> >
>>> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>>> > > <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> > > > > "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>> > > > > https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>>> > > > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>>> > > > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>>> > > > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>>> > > > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>>> > > > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>>> > > > > bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>>> > > > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>> > > > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>>> > > >
>>> > > > The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>>> > > > Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>>> > > > that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>>> > > > nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>>> > > > television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>>> > > > had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>>> > > > Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>>> > > > Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>> > >
>>> > > Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>> > > is not assassinated and its results.
>>> > >
>>> > > They aren't pretty.
>>> >
>>> > I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>
>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>
>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>
>>So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
>>improvement.
>>
>
>The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
>citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
>speaker who clearly understood.

From Wikipedia:

While the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" can be understood as having a
double meaning, it is neither wrong to use it the way Kennedy did nor
was it embarrassing.[15] According to some grammar texts,[16] the indefinite
article can be omitted in German when speaking of an individual's profession
or origin but is in any case used when speaking in a figurative sense.[17][18]
Furthermore, although the word "Berliner"[14][19] has traditionally been used
for a doughnut filled with fruit jam or jelly in the north, west, and southwest
of Germany, it has never been used in Berlin itself or the surrounding region,
where the usual word is "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake").[20] Therefore,
no Berliner would mistake Berliner for a doughnut.

And:

The misconception appears to have originated in Len Deighton's 1983
spy novel Berlin Game, which contains the following passage,
spoken by Bernard Samson:

'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous
proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
doughnuts.[22]

The NY Times review took it as gospel and thus an urban legend was born.

On 3/4/2024 12:57 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>> On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>> (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>>> <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>>>>
>>>>> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>>>>> confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>>>>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>>>>
>>>>> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>>>>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>>>>> confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>>>>> days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>>>>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>>>>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>>>>
>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>>>>
>>>> The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>>>> Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>>>> that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>>>> nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>>>> television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>>>> had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>>>> Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>>>> Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>>
>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>
>>> They aren't pretty.
>>
>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>
> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>
> Has nothing to do with the pastry.

But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 3/4/2024 12:57 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>> On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>>> (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>>>> <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>>>>>> confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>>>>>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>>>>>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>>>>>> confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>>>>>> days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>>>>>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>>>>>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>>>>>
>>>>> The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>>>>> Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>>>>> that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>>>>> nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>>>>> television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>>>>> had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>>>>> Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>>>>> Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>
>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>
>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>
>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>
>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>
>But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.

No, it's not funny at all.

In article <C5tFN.64216$9cLc.11914@fx02.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 3/4/2024 12:57 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>>> On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>>>> (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>>>>> <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>>>>>>> confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>>>>>>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>>>>>>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>>>>>>> confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>>>>>>> days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>>>>>>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>>>>>>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>>>>>> Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>>>>>> that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>>>>>> nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>>>>>> television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>>>>>> had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>>>>>> Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>>>>>> Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>>
>>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>>
>>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>
>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>
>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>
>>But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.
>
>No, it's not funny at all.

You wouldn't say that if you were a jelly doughnut.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 3/4/2024 5:48 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/4/2024 12:57 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>>> On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>>>> (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>>>>> <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>> "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>>>>>>> confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>>>>>>> published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>>>>>>> Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>>>>>>> confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>>>>>>> days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>>>>>>> bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>>>>>>> the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>>>>>> Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>>>>>> that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>>>>>> nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>>>>>> television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>>>>>> had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>>>>>> Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>>>>>> Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>>
>>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>>
>>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>
>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>
>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>
>> But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.
>
> No, it's not funny at all.

It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
a long time ago.

Lynn

On 05.03.24, WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
> (in article <VQoFN.39118$zF_1.2602@fx18.iad>):
>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>> On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>>> (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):

>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy
>>>> who is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>
>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>
>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is...,
>>> or just
>>
>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.

It means "I am a person from Berlin", or, "I am a Berliner".

It does NOT mean "I am Berlin". That'd be "Ich bin Berlin".

>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.

> So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to
> be an improvement.

Seeing it as meaning he's a pastry rather than someone from Berlin is an
old joke.

Hey, they have pastry that's called Amerikaner (American) here.

Only imported Hamburgers though, that wasn't the local's idea. :P

--

Mickmane

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>On 3/4/2024 5:48 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>>
>>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>>
>>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>>
>>> But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.
>>
>> No, it's not funny at all.
>
>It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
>a long time ago.

It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
not some wannabe comedian.

On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 18:57:57 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Ich bin ein Berliner

According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,

"Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"

and

"Berliner" means "Doughnut"

"Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles
desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

Note: all phrases/words shown in quotes were entered /without the
quotes/.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 19:50:35 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>>On Mar 4, 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote
>>>(in article <VQoFN.39118$zF_1.2602@fx18.iad>):
>>>
>>>> WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> writes:
>>>> > On Mar 4, 2024, Paul S Person wrote
>>>> > (in article<n0ubui12gfb4dvmtqvq63cqh33rpbe5cgb@4ax.com>):
>>>> >
>>>> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:52:55 +0000, Robert Carnegie
>>>> > > <rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > On 03/03/2024 22:01, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> > > > > "My Real Children" by Jo Walton
>>>> > > > > https://www.amazon.com/My-Real-Children-Jo-Walton/dp/076533268X/
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > A standalone alternate history fantasy novel about a 90 year old
>>>> > > > > confused woman. I read the well printed and well bound trade paperback
>>>> > > > > published by Tor Books in 2014 that I bought on Amazon in 2017.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > Patricia Cowan is 90 years old and living in a nursing home in England.
>>>> > > > > Her daily status chart differs between "confused today" and "very
>>>> > > > > confused today". Some days she remembers having four children and some
>>>> > > > > days she remembers having three children. Some days she remembers the
>>>> > > > > bomb that killed President Kennedy in 1963 and some days she remembers
>>>> > > > > the nuclear exchange that destroyed Miami and Kiev in 1963.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > My rating: 5 out of 5 stars
>>>> > > > > Amazon rating: 4.2 out of 5 stars (489 reviews)
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > The bomb that killed President Kennedy?
>>>> > > > Are you sure? Is she? Why am I assuming
>>>> > > > that Kennedy didn't die in the "limited
>>>> > > > nuclear exchange" timeline? Maybe because
>>>> > > > television science fiction comedy _Red Dwarf_
>>>> > > > had a "saved Kennedy, afterwards bad" episode?
>>>> > > > Not-dead Kennedy was a nuisance in
>>>> > > > Stephen Baxter's novel _Voyage_, too.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>> > > is not assassinated and its results.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > They aren't pretty.
>>>> >
>>>> > I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>>
>>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>>
>>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>>
>>>So... intead of being a doughnut, he was a city? This hardly seems to be an
>>>improvement.
>>>
>>
>>The english translation doesn't convey what the phrase meant to the
>>citizens of Berlin. It is a perfectly normal phrase to a German
>>speaker who clearly understood.
>
>From Wikipedia:
>
> While the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" can be understood as having a
> double meaning, it is neither wrong to use it the way Kennedy did nor
> was it embarrassing.[15] According to some grammar texts,[16] the indefinite
> article can be omitted in German when speaking of an individual's profession
> or origin but is in any case used when speaking in a figurative sense.[17][18]
> Furthermore, although the word "Berliner"[14][19] has traditionally been used
> for a doughnut filled with fruit jam or jelly in the north, west, and southwest
> of Germany, it has never been used in Berlin itself or the surrounding region,
> where the usual word is "Pfannkuchen" (literally "pancake").[20] Therefore,
> no Berliner would mistake Berliner for a doughnut.
>
>And:
>
> The misconception appears to have originated in Len Deighton's 1983
> spy novel Berlin Game, which contains the following passage,
> spoken by Bernard Samson:
>
> 'Ich bin ein Berliner,' I said. It was a joke. A Berliner is
> a doughnut. The day after President Kennedy made his famous
> proclamation, Berlin cartoonists had a field day with talking
> doughnuts.[22]
>
>The NY Times review took it as gospel and thus an urban legend was born.

I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

And, even if, "Ich bin Berliner" would mean "I am a resident of
Berlin" (and the transator facility says it means "I am a doughnut"),
Kennedy /didn't/ omit the "ein", rendering the grammatical argument
pointless.

So, no misconception involved. Those who heard him knew what he meant,
and what he said, but what can you expect from an Amerikaner? At least
he tried.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 18:57:57 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>
>>Ich bin ein Berliner
>
>According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,
>
>"Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"
>
>and
>
>"Berliner" means "Doughnut"

Not in Berlin or the surrounding region.

>
>"Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles
>desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
>doughnut. Even though he clearly did.

No, he did not. Please read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.

Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
who don't know German.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On 3/5/2024 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/4/2024 5:48 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>>>
>>>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>>>
>>>> But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.
>>>
>>> No, it's not funny at all.
>>
>> It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
>> a long time ago.
>
> It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
> taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
> not some wannabe comedian.

I got both explanations in German class.

Sounds like your teacher was just like my German grandmother (last name
was Harshbarger) and my German Greatgrandmothers. Not much laughter
with them, very serious people. I miss them even so. My Belgium
grandmother laughed all the time, could not cook anything besides rice
and potatoes, grew up in a dry cabin just south of here. Miss her big time.

I remember singing the "if you do not work, you will not eat" song
before supper back in the 1960s. Very serious stuff.

Lynn

Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.
>
> Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
> who don't know German.

My professor of German, an Englishman who had lived a decade in Berlin
(our tutors, from Bavaria and Hamburg mocked his accent, but gently and
of course not in his presence) had a theory about this.

Most English speakers know nothing of any other language, and are
embarrassed by this, so take particular pleasure when another English
speaker shows the same inability. Especially someone who had a good
education. And the jelly doughnut is just ... the jelly doughnut on top.

Of course, as he spoke five languages perhaps he wasn't an expert on the
thinking of the monolingual. And, off topic, I wonder if he had a
Berlin accent in all of them?

William Hyde

On 06/03/2024 01:52, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/4/2024 5:48 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>>>> Stephen King's _11/22/63: A Novel_ includes a version of Kennedy who
>>>>>>> is not assassinated and its results.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They aren't pretty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I take it that the Talking Doughnut (look up what a Berliner is..., or just
>>>>>
>>>>> Ich bin ein Berliner is "I am Berlin" auf Deutsch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has nothing to do with the pastry.
>>>>
>>>> But, "I am a jelly doughnut" is quite funny to non Berliners.
>>>
>>> No, it's not funny at all.
>>
>> It was funny to my entire German class in 1975. Or was that 1976. Been
>> a long time ago.
>
> It wasn't funny in my German class in the 1970's. Our german teacher
> taught us what the phrase meant to the Berliners who heard it,
> not some wannabe comedian.

It's mildly amusing to those of us who are primarily English-speaking,
whose family background is German.

All the idiots who think that "Berliner" *only* means doughnut, sigh...

My father was a Berliner, and he'd rip your lungs out if you'd tried to
tell him that meant he was a pastry. (Post-war smugglers and
black-marketers, of which he was one, didn't take being demeaned
lightly. ;-) )

Cheers,
Gary B-)

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.
>
>Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
>who don't know German.

All the /evidence/ presented suggests he did.

All the counterarguments are clearly handwaving excercises.

And my point that this was known (or at least believed) well before
1983 still stands.

I experienced the tolerance of Germans for Americans who at least
/try/ to communicate in German on many occasions in the mid-70s. These
were all occasions when I got out of my depth and the mood was getting
bad when I admitted that I was, not a German, but an "amerikanische
Soldat", which calmed things down considerably.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 2024-03-06, Gary R. Schmidt <grschmidt@acm.org> wrote:

> It's mildly amusing to those of us who are primarily English-speaking,
> whose family background is German.
>
> All the idiots who think that "Berliner" *only* means doughnut, sigh...

I guess they think "Berliner Zeitung" is a donut journal?

Wait until they learn about "Pariser"!

In German, -er serves as the general suffix to form adjectives from
the names of settlements, and by extension nouns referring to the
inhabitants. Now, if you know some German, you'll notice two
oddities: Those -er words don't inflect like adjectives and they
are capitalized. That's because they are fossilized nouns in the
genitive case, although they are no longer perceived as such by
modern speakers.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
<naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.
>
>Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
>who don't know German.

OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense) but must be using some other
meaning of "Berliner" to which an indefinite article can apply, of
which "I am a doughnut" at least recognizes that "Berliner" is also
used for a type of pastry -- and makes sense, at least grammatically.

2. Had Kennedy said he was "of Berlin", he would have been lying, for
he was neither a native of Berlin nor a resident of Berlin. So those
insisting "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am of Berlin" (ignoring the
"ein") are making him out to be a liar.

3. What Kennedy meant, as pretty much everyone probably realizes, was
that he (and so, since he was Chief of State, the USA and, by
extension, NATO) were very supportive of West Berlin, surrounded as it
was by Commies. He was, IOW, expressing his solidarity with the
residents of Berlin, not claiming to be one.

4. All the hand-waving and excuse-making is from people who think that
/what he said/ must be /what he meant/. But people speaking a foreign
language tend to be limited by not being part of the corresponding
culture and so not understanding, as Prof Schickele (discoverer of PDQ
Back) puts it at one point, "all the cultural nuances and stuff". This
leaves the person(s) being spoken to figure out what was /meant/ by
what was said. In some cases, actually asking to verify that what is
thought to have been meant actually was meant is prudent; in this
case, the context of the speech makes it pretty darn obvious.

5. I view this as just one more instance of "semantic goo", which
allows anyone who wants to to claim anything that person wants to by
simply waving the arms and making excuses. Among other
characteristics.

Having a grasp of reality and semantic goo, BTW, are incompatible.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"