Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
><naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>>On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.=20
>>
>>Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
>>who don't know German.
>
>OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.

Give it up. You don't understand German and you're not a Berliner.

Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
> <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.
>>
>> Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
>> who don't know German.
>
> OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.
>
> 1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
> suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
> with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
> using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
> Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense)

But then, Tony Curtis wasn't Spartacus in any sense, either.

Movie 1960, speech 1963.

William Hyde

On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 18:31:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>><naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.=20
>>>
>>>Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
>>>who don't know German.
>>
>>OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.
>
>Give it up. You don't understand German and you're not a Berliner.

Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
article makes a difference! Or so I have read ... here ...
unchallenged by people who "know German".

I do understand German, to some extent. I took two years of it in
college. I was actually quite good in the late 70s/early 80s at simple
everyday interactions.

But time does seem to have passed this topic by ... for now.

--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:30:17 -0500, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 18:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
>> <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-03-05, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I learned that Kennedy said he was a doughnut /long/ before 1983.
>>>
>>> Well, he didn't. It's a bizarre myth repeated by English speakers
>>> who don't know German.
>>
>> OK, I've had what I like to think of as "some thoughts" on this topic.
>>
>> 1. The grammatical information presented somewhere in this tangle
>> suggests that "Ich bin Berliner" means "I am of Berlin", presumably
>> with a noun phrase ("a native" "a resident") omitted. It also rejects
>> using the article, so "Ich bin ein Berliner" cannot mean "I am an of
>> Berlin" (which isn't true in any sense)
>
>
>But then, Tony Curtis wasn't Spartacus in any sense, either.
>
>Movie 1960, speech 1963.

An irrelevance.

When a person resorts to that, everyone else who is paying attention
knows that that person has run out of arguments.

That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
of playing the role.

And saying that an actor played a role in a movie is not a nonsense
phrase (as "I am an of Berlin" is).

Well, provided the German grammitical information given in this
discussion is correct. I haven't actually pulled out my Duden to check
it.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 2024-03-09, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> And saying that an actor played a role in a movie is not a nonsense
> phrase (as "I am an of Berlin" is).
>
> Well, provided the German grammitical information given in this
> discussion is correct.

That was an _etymological_ aside.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
>article makes a difference!

Reading this thread has made me glazed.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:30:17 -0500, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>.

>
> That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
> the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
> of playing the role.

Kirk Douglas played Spartacus. Curtis played Antoninus, In the story
at one point Antoninus (and others) claimed "I am Spartacus", which has
meaning even though it was not true in any sense.

William Hyde

On 3/9/2024 12:16 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> Not only am I not a jelly donut, I am not of Berlin. That indefinite
>> article makes a difference!
>
> Reading this thread has made me glazed.
> --scott
>
Chocolate or sugar?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 05/03/2024 18:14, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> On Mon, 04 Mar 2024 18:57:57 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ich bin ein Berliner
>>
>> According to the English-to-German translator on Bing,
>>
>> "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I am a Berliner"
>>
>> and
>>
>> "Berliner" means "Doughnut"
>
> Not in Berlin or the surrounding region.
>
>>
>> "Ich bin ein Berliner meaning", OTOH, produces ... a page of articles
>> desperately trying to explain that he really didn't say he was
>> doughnut. Even though he clearly did.
>
> No, he did not. Please read here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

In fact the matter seems to be settled
by people contributing in this group who
speak and read German as their first
language, but Wikipedia can be edited
and I wouldn't accept that page as
a final truth, any more than I would
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covfefe>.
Which isn't to say that I dispute it
either. That it is there at all is an
act of free speech. It may be not there
twelve months from now.

On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 16:47:36 -0500, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 14:30:17 -0500, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>.
>
>>
>> That would depend on whether Tony Curtis based his acting on becoming
>> the character or not. But, in any case, he was Spartacus in the sense
>> of playing the role.
>
>Kirk Douglas played Spartacus. Curtis played Antoninus, In the story
>at one point Antoninus (and others) claimed "I am Spartacus", which has
>meaning even though it was not true in any sense.

Thanks for pointing that out.

It's been a long time since I saw it.

The last version I saw had that most dreaded or most desired
(depending on the result) feature -- extra scenes.

Which, in this case, had dialog that was identical to other scenes
left in the movie. After some post-production adjustment to produce
the original, no doubt. In this case, the extra scenes were not really
a positive thing. IMHO, of course.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"