On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:50:46 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>I agree with Scott. Lend-Lease not only moved thousands of tanks and
>other vehicles and planes into the Soviet Union, the Soviets also
>learned how to build advanced weaponry.

Not to mention loads (literally - several aircraft were believed to
have been sent to Russia via Alaska loaded with US blueprints and
patent info in 1944-45) of US industrial technology much of which was
developed and owned by US corporations, NOT the US government.

And of course 5 BILLION tins of SPAM which were considered by the
Soviets to be a "mobile supply of food" during the tank offensives of
1944-45.

With respect to Soviet technology, analysis of the T-34 series and
KV-85 series shows these were better OFF ROAD than anything the US or
Brits had but the later British and US tanks were considered much
faster 'on-road' than their Soviet counterparts and thus better suited
to western European conditions (which included Germany) than anything
the Red Army had. The US army also had a major edge in mobile repairs
of armored vehicles than either Germans or Soviets - and had to be
since a damaged US tank couldn't be shipped back to the US for
repairs.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 19:58:28 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>I really doubt that Trump actually takes orders from Moscow, but
>he does seem to admire Putin, and its possible that Putin has
>kompromat on him, which bends his actions even if not given
>explicit instructions.
>
Assuming "kompromat" means what I think it does, surely a better
response would be that of the Canadian diplomat who when confronted
with surreptitiously taken photos of himself with a Russian "lady" and
asked to spy for the KGB was said to have asked for a dozen copies of
each picture as "back in Ottawa they think I'm dull and uninterested
in women but these definitely prove otherwise!"

While that part of the story is undoubtedly apocryphal the gent in
question did serve the Canadian foreign service till retirement.

On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>
>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>> but it didn't cause it.
>
> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
> invented by him) or something else?
>
> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
> promise"

Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.

pt

In article <mcko0jlcbol6djm4mtvdgtsqldb3rpkea7@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>I distinctly remember the line "You know the
>'rockets' red glare? the bombs bursting in air? Well those were OUR
>rockets and OUR bombs - but we don't advertise that much to our
>American friends these days!"

[Hal Heydt]
Congreve rockets and mortar rounds with the fuse cut too short,
repsectively.

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On 27 Mar 2024 13:19:56 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>TLDNR: Putin feels Russia isn't safe unless it can
>>>reconstruct the Soviet Union and regain suzerainty over
>>>the former Warsaw Pact. Russia won't stop, so it has
>>>to be stopped.
>>
>>I do not believe this is true at all. Putin considers the USSR to have
>>been weak, and Lenin as having made compromises that wouldn't have been
>>made by a stronger leader. Putin does not want to reconstruct the Soviet
>>Union, he wants to reconstruct the Russian state of Ivan the Terrible.
>>--scott
>
>If that is true then what is Putin doing invading Ukraine?
>
>Since as the map from Britannica shows:
>https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ivan-the-Terrible
>
>while Ivan's Russia was a fairly big place it DIDN'T include St
>Petersburg, the Baltic states, Belorus or nearly all of Ukraine.

Oh, I don't think he wants to stop there. I don't think Ivan did either.
But it is true that Peter the Great is the person that Mr. Putin is so
frequently quoting and making comparisons with, even if his policies seem
more like those of Ivan's.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 4/2/2024 6:08 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2024 13:19:56 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> TLDNR: Putin feels Russia isn't safe unless it can
>>>> reconstruct the Soviet Union and regain suzerainty over
>>>> the former Warsaw Pact. Russia won't stop, so it has
>>>> to be stopped.
>>>
>>> I do not believe this is true at all. Putin considers the USSR to have
>>> been weak, and Lenin as having made compromises that wouldn't have been
>>> made by a stronger leader. Putin does not want to reconstruct the Soviet
>>> Union, he wants to reconstruct the Russian state of Ivan the Terrible.
>>> --scott
>>
>> If that is true then what is Putin doing invading Ukraine?
>>
>> Since as the map from Britannica shows:
>> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ivan-the-Terrible
>>
>> while Ivan's Russia was a fairly big place it DIDN'T include St
>> Petersburg, the Baltic states, Belorus or nearly all of Ukraine.
>
> Oh, I don't think he wants to stop there. I don't think Ivan did either.
> But it is true that Peter the Great is the person that Mr. Putin is so
> frequently quoting and making comparisons with, even if his policies seem
> more like those of Ivan's.
> --scott

Putin has said "Russia borders do not end."

https://x.com/BBCSteveR/status/1746784252312891463?s=20

There's a notion in Russia that its 'superior culture'
should be expanded first to any place which had or had
a Russian presence, and later to everywhere. That
includes all of former the USSR and Warsaw Pact, Alaska,
California, and many western European countries.

Muskovy delenda est.

pt

On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 11:11:32 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>
>>Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>but it didn't cause it.
>
>So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>invented by him) or something else?

It read that way to me. I did look up British Israelitism but I don't
recall finding any explicit connection.

The book was /Our Near Future: A Message to All the Governments and
People of Earth/ by William A. Redding. I tried looking him up, but
don't recall finding much. I'm not the most proficient of
search-engine users.

He (and his publisher, and perhaps others) credited himself with
predicting WWI. And perhaps he did -- but not in this book. This may
be an example of a common phenomenon: a prediction is claimed to have
been fulfilled if something major happens at the predicted time (WWI,
starting in 1914, was certainly "something major" -- just not what was
predicted). IOW, claims that a prophecy was "fulfilled" need to be
checked with the /actual prophecy/ to see if that matches what
happened.

Somewhere in Deuteronomy (IIRC), God Himself tells Isreal how to
distinguish true from false prophecies (and so true from false
prophets): if the prophecy is fulfilled, it was true. Otherwise it was
false.

But, in this and many other cases, the logic seems to be the opposite:
since it is a prophecy, it /must/ come true, at some time, in some
way. This is understandable[1] if the people saying this believe that
the Bible is absolute truth and the prophecy is in the Bible; but to
apply it to other prophecies seems a pretty dubious procedure to me.

It would seem to me to make more sense to say that, for example, the
"prophets" who claimed that Trump would be back in the Oval Office in
late 2021 ... or mid-2022 ... or anytime at all before Inauguration
Day 2025 (which I hope will not be the case, but who can say?) are
/not/ "true" prophets, but rather false ones.

Fortunately for them, stoning false prophets has long gone out of
style. In some places, at least.

[1] Kindly note that I am saying "understandable", not "correct".

>These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>promise"
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 19:02:09 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 18:03:12 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>[I note that America, and earlier European colonial powers
>>>>are/were guilty of similar hubris.
>>>
>>>Up until 1895 or so, the US was very insular and refused to
>>>involve themselves in foriegn events and politics, even in
>>>central and south america. Since then, not so much.
>>
>>You mean like vs. Spain or Mexico? Or dozens of aboriginal tribes? Or
>>Hawaii? (I'll grant - the US paid $$$ for French Louisiana and Alaska)
>>At least in terms of square mileage the US took more territory than
>>anybody but Russia (their main gain being Siberia) and with the
>>exception of the Phillipines - kept it all. (On the Phillipines, in
>>1941 Manila was considered the 6th biggest city in the United States
>>and many Americans in 1946 were shocked that the Filipinos preferred
>>independence to statehood)
>
>Note that I specified 1895 or so. The spanish american war in 1898
>changed that, and WWII (isolationism still existed up to the
>first WWI).

Actually, I think it existed up to WWII as well.

There is a /reason/ that the attack on Pearl Harbor is credited with
bringing the USA into the war in Europe.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
> Confiscating the major weapons is the real problem. Picking up nuclear
> weapons and carrying them off would cause all kinds of international and
> logistical issues, and someone might decide to launch them rather than
> give them up. They're probably already poorly maintained and unreliable,
> but that could just mean that instead of blowing up their intended
> target, they'll blow up somebody else.

In all the history of the Thing, only Bilbo -- I mean, Ukraine -- has
voluntarily given it up, and that took all our help...

--
Jeff

Jeff Urs <jeff.urs@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>> Confiscating the major weapons is the real problem. Picking up
>> nuclear weapons and carrying them off would cause all kinds of
>> international and logistical issues, and someone might decide to
>> launch them rather than give them up. They're probably already
>> poorly maintained and unreliable, but that could just mean that
>> instead of blowing up their intended target, they'll blow up
>> somebody else.

> In all the history of the Thing, only Bilbo -- I mean, Ukraine --
> has voluntarily given it up, and that took all our help...

And I'll bet they regret giving them up. What a great lesson for
other nuclear powers who are being urged to give them up.

Also, if I was Bilbo I would have kept the One Ring. But then I've
always been a packrat. And a ring takes up much less space than a
bunch of nuclear weapons and their launchers.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 10:59:46 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 4/2/2024 6:08 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>> On 27 Mar 2024 13:19:56 -0000, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> TLDNR: Putin feels Russia isn't safe unless it can
>>>>> reconstruct the Soviet Union and regain suzerainty over
>>>>> the former Warsaw Pact. Russia won't stop, so it has
>>>>> to be stopped.
>>>>
>>>> I do not believe this is true at all. Putin considers the USSR to have
>>>> been weak, and Lenin as having made compromises that wouldn't have been
>>>> made by a stronger leader. Putin does not want to reconstruct the Soviet
>>>> Union, he wants to reconstruct the Russian state of Ivan the Terrible.
>>>> --scott
>>>
>>> If that is true then what is Putin doing invading Ukraine?
>>>
>>> Since as the map from Britannica shows:
>>> https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ivan-the-Terrible
>>>
>>> while Ivan's Russia was a fairly big place it DIDN'T include St
>>> Petersburg, the Baltic states, Belorus or nearly all of Ukraine.
>>
>> Oh, I don't think he wants to stop there. I don't think Ivan did either.
>> But it is true that Peter the Great is the person that Mr. Putin is so
>> frequently quoting and making comparisons with, even if his policies seem
>> more like those of Ivan's.
>> --scott
>
>Putin has said "Russia borders do not end."
>
>https://x.com/BBCSteveR/status/1746784252312891463?s=20
>
>There's a notion in Russia that its 'superior culture'
>should be expanded first to any place which had or had
>a Russian presence, and later to everywhere. That
>includes all of former the USSR and Warsaw Pact, Alaska,
>California, and many western European countries.

China feels much the same way. And wasn't there a slogan "Make the
World British"?

Imperialism and delusions of grandeur go hand-in-hand, and are all too
common.

>Muskovy delenda est.

Pointless.

But I do find myself getting tired waiting for these numskulls to wake
up and smell the coffee. Or whatever.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 00:51:47 -0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
<kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:

>Jeff Urs <jeff.urs@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>>> Confiscating the major weapons is the real problem. Picking up
>>> nuclear weapons and carrying them off would cause all kinds of
>>> international and logistical issues, and someone might decide to
>>> launch them rather than give them up. They're probably already
>>> poorly maintained and unreliable, but that could just mean that
>>> instead of blowing up their intended target, they'll blow up
>>> somebody else.
>
>> In all the history of the Thing, only Bilbo -- I mean, Ukraine --
>> has voluntarily given it up, and that took all our help...
>
>And I'll bet they regret giving them up. What a great lesson for
>other nuclear powers who are being urged to give them up.
>
>Also, if I was Bilbo I would have kept the One Ring. But then I've
>always been a packrat. And a ring takes up much less space than a
>bunch of nuclear weapons and their launchers.

Bilbo, left to himself, would have kept the One Ring. Or died trying.

It took Gandalf partially unmasking himself and cowing Bilbo to get
Bilbo to give it up.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Thu, 4 Apr 2024, Paul S Person wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 00:51:47 -0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
> <kfl@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Urs <jeff.urs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:
>>>> Confiscating the major weapons is the real problem. Picking up
>>>> nuclear weapons and carrying them off would cause all kinds of
>>>> international and logistical issues, and someone might decide to
>>>> launch them rather than give them up. They're probably already
>>>> poorly maintained and unreliable, but that could just mean that
>>>> instead of blowing up their intended target, they'll blow up
>>>> somebody else.
>>
>>> In all the history of the Thing, only Bilbo -- I mean, Ukraine --
>>> has voluntarily given it up, and that took all our help...
>>
>> And I'll bet they regret giving them up. What a great lesson for
>> other nuclear powers who are being urged to give them up.
>>
>> Also, if I was Bilbo I would have kept the One Ring. But then I've
>> always been a packrat. And a ring takes up much less space than a
>> bunch of nuclear weapons and their launchers.
>
> Bilbo, left to himself, would have kept the One Ring. Or died trying.
>
> It took Gandalf partially unmasking himself and cowing Bilbo to get
> Bilbo to give it up.
>

Sounds like a great "alternative history" book! Bilbo the Slayer! ;)

On 03/04/2024 09.59, Cryptoengineer wrote:

> Putin has said "Russia borders do not end."
>
> https://x.com/BBCSteveR/status/1746784252312891463?s=20

ObSFW: "A circle has no end."

--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?

On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>
>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>
>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>> invented by him) or something else?
>>
>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>> promise"
>
>Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.

Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".

I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 08:25:55 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>Actually, I think it existed up to WWII as well.
>
>There is a /reason/ that the attack on Pearl Harbor is credited with
>bringing the USA into the war in Europe.

Really? I would have thought the most important thing of that week was
Hitler's declaration of war on the United States which certainly
directly brought the USA into the war in Europe.

It was basically Hitler's submarine war against the US in the spring
of 1942 that really brought home to the US what they were fighting
for.

No question the soc.history.what-if types have repeatedly debated in
the 25+ years I've been part of it what would have happened following
the US declaration of war on Japan if Hitler had NOT declared on the
United States - and the Axis DIDN'T commit Germany to declaring war on
anybody UNLESS Japan were attacked which 7 Dec 1941 rendered moot.

Without the German declaration FDR had a problem since he and
Churchill had agreed to "Germany first" as early as the Placentia Bay
conference.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 12:09:46 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
><petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>>
>>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>>
>>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>>> invented by him) or something else?
>>>
>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>> promise"
>>
>>Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>>came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>
>Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
>was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>
>I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
>British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.

I think I also first heard it in /Chariots of Fire/ -- unless it was
sung in /Lawrence of Arabia/ under similar circumstances -- but I
first heard /of/ it in Flanders & Swann's /Song of Patriotic
Prejudice/, where they ask what the British have for a national anthem
-- and "Jerusalem" is the answer.

They then give their song, starting out with a rousing "The British,
the British, the British are best, so up with the British and down
with the rest". Well, that's how I remember the lyrics, anyway.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 12:16:48 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 08:25:55 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Actually, I think it existed up to WWII as well.
>>
>>There is a /reason/ that the attack on Pearl Harbor is credited with
>>bringing the USA into the war in Europe.
>
>Really? I would have thought the most important thing of that week was
>Hitler's declaration of war on the United States which certainly
>directly brought the USA into the war in Europe.

Which would not have happened except for the attack on Pearl Harbor.

You appear to be mistaking the /effect/ for the /cause/.

>It was basically Hitler's submarine war against the US in the spring
>of 1942 that really brought home to the US what they were fighting
>for.

Indeed. But it was the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor that enraged the
citizenry. And produced support for joining the war, which up till
then had been noticeably lacking.

Still, American naval unpreparedness to counter the U-boat menace was
a strong stimulus to securing the North Atlantic.

>No question the soc.history.what-if types have repeatedly debated in
>the 25+ years I've been part of it what would have happened following
>the US declaration of war on Japan if Hitler had NOT declared on the
>United States - and the Axis DIDN'T commit Germany to declaring war on
>anybody UNLESS Japan were attacked which 7 Dec 1941 rendered moot.

That's an interesting alt-history point. I suspect that "the enemy of
my friend is my enemy" would have brought us into the European
conflict eventually.

>Without the German declaration FDR had a problem since he and
>Churchill had agreed to "Germany first" as early as the Placentia Bay
>conference.

The discussions occurred when the Japanese were confining themselves
to trying to defeat China. But the decision held even after Japan
committed national hari-kari by attacking Pearl Harbor, Indochina,
Malaya, Singapore, and the Phillipines.

In Europe, actual combat with the enemy was possible at any time you
were willing to engage in it. In the Pacific ... well, Emmerich's
/Midway/ actually covers the early period between Pearl Harbor and
Midway. Just figuring out where the enemy /was/ was often a problem,
never mind actually getting the ships to the right location in time.
This is, of course, has pretty always been a difference between land
and sea combat.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 08:36:36 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>They then give their song, starting out with a rousing "The British,
>the British, the British are best, so up with the British and down
>with the rest". Well, that's how I remember the lyrics, anyway.

Such a great song - and in the verses you don't cite they insult just
about every other nation in Europe.

Oh and by the way - the reason you had trouble finding it was that
it's actually "The English, the English..." rather than the British.

Mark me down as a Flanders and Swann fan.

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 09:03:11 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>Still, American naval unpreparedness to counter the U-boat menace was
>a strong stimulus to securing the North Atlantic.=20

It wasn't just the Americans - in the spring of 1942 the U-boats were
ranging freely in the Western Atlantic with about 20 Canadian ships
being sunk in the Gulf of St. Lawrence most within sight of the Quebec
shoreline as well as pretty much the whole US east coast from Maine to
Florida.

>>No question the soc.history.what-if types have repeatedly debated in
>>the 25+ years I've been part of it what would have happened following
>>the US declaration of war on Japan if Hitler had NOT declared on the
>>United States - and the Axis DIDN'T commit Germany to declaring war on
>>anybody UNLESS Japan were attacked which 7 Dec 1941 rendered moot.
>
>That's an interesting alt-history point. I suspect that "the enemy of
>my friend is my enemy" would have brought us into the European
>conflict eventually.

Not to mention the fate of USS Reuben James and Kearsage which were
both sunk by U-boats BEFORE Pearl Harbor. Note that "USS" means
'combat ships of the United States Navy and excludes merchant ships.
The Germans claimed bad visibility in a self-declared "war zone" (e.g.
which they themselves had declared but which the US denied their right
to do so on the "high seas". Another Reuben James type incident could
well have changed Congressional minds about war with Germany - but no
question the German declaration on the United States was one of
Hitler's top unforced errors of the whole war. It is said that Hitler
felt Lend Lease and similar programs effectively put the US at war
already but minus a war declaration there were still lots of things
the US could not do.

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>>
>>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>>
>>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>>> invented by him) or something else?
>>>
>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>> promise"
>>
>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>
> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>
> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.
>

It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
our carol service is a favorite memory.

Pt

In article <uv1miv$3nsoi$1@dont-email.me>,
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>>>
>>>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>>>
>>>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>>>> invented by him) or something else?
>>>>
>>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>>> promise"
>>>
>>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>>
>> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
>> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>>
>> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
>> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.
>>
>
>It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
>England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
>60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
>our carol service is a favorite memory.
>
>Pt
>

I cannot think of it outside of the "Buying A Bed" sketch:

"Otherwise he's perfectly all right!"
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 10:24:22 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 08:36:36 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>They then give their song, starting out with a rousing "The British,
>>the British, the British are best, so up with the British and down
>>with the rest". Well, that's how I remember the lyrics, anyway.
>
>Such a great song - and in the verses you don't cite they insult just
>about every other nation in Europe.
>
>Oh and by the way - the reason you had trouble finding it was that
>it's actually "The English, the English..." rather than the British.

That makes perfect sense, given that some of those other nations are
the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish.

>Mark me down as a Flanders and Swann fan.

/The Complete Flanders & Swann/ is one of my most treasured CDs.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

On 4/8/2024 5:27 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <uv1miv$3nsoi$1@dont-email.me>,
> Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>>>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>>>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>>>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>>>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>>>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>>>>> invented by him) or something else?
>>>>>
>>>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>>>> promise"
>>>>
>>>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>>>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>>>
>>> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
>>> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>>>
>>> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
>>> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.
>>>
>>
>> It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
>> England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
>> 60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
>> our carol service is a favorite memory.
>>
>> Pt
>>
>
> I cannot think of it outside of the "Buying A Bed" sketch:

Its also a tradition at the last night of the Proms. Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sERiPuOQyvo

pt

On 4/7/2024 3:09 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>>
>>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>>
>>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>>> invented by him) or something else?
>>>
>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>> promise"
>>
>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>
> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>
> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.

I was unaware that it was being used by BI types, when I lived in
Britain in the 60s and 70s. I did, however, associate it with 'Muscular
Christianity', which fits with the theme of 'Chariots of Fire'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscular_Christianity

As for why it may be attractive to BI types:

There's a medieval legend that after the Crucifixion,
Joseph of Arimathea came to Britain, carrying the Holy Grail,
and set up the first Christian church in Britain at Glastonbury.

Later, an added element has Joseph, a friend of Jesus' family,
also taking Jesus on a trip to Britain during his 'silent' years of
youth.

This latter addition may be quite late, perhaps as late as the
early 20th century, but Blake's poem a century earlier seems
to refer to it.

Anyway, having Jesus actually present in Britain seems to
fit well with BI mythology. Here's the first two verses:

"And did those feet, in ancient times,
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark satanic mills?"

pt