On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 21:11:59 -0000 (UTC), Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 08:19:41 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A book I read recently asserted that, by 1914 (it was written in
>>>>> 1896), the world would be a shambles, all states would be dissolved,
>>>>> all denomination likewise, and the world would be ruled from
>>>>> Jerusalem, by a partnership between the Saxons (that is, the Ten Lost
>>>>> Tribes) and the Jews (as junior partners, of course).
>>>>>
>>>>> Believing you are God's Chosen People probably fed into WASP racism,
>>>>> but it didn't cause it.
>>>>
>>>> So was this "British Israelism" (a la Herbert W Armstrong but not
>>>> invented by him) or something else?
>>>>
>>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>>> promise"
>>>
>>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>>
>> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
>> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>>
>> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
>> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.
>>
>
>It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
>England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
>60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
>our carol service is a favorite memory.
>
>Pt

And in modern times was adopted by the British Labour party as their
anthem. I've never heard it sung live but have heard numerous
recordings of it - not sure if I heard it before Chariots of Fire or
not.

On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 08:24:07 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>Oh and by the way - the reason you had trouble finding it was that
>>it's actually "The English, the English..." rather than the British.
>
>That makes perfect sense, given that some of those other nations are
>the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish.

Well yes. While we don't have any Welsh in our ancestry (or Scots) our
first dog was a Pembroke Corgi. She was a 'hearing ear dog' for my
late wife who was hearing impaired.

>>Mark me down as a Flanders and Swann fan.
>
>/The Complete Flanders & Swann/ is one of my most treasured CDs.
>--=20

Haven't got it or heard it but have heard quite a few F&S tracks.

"So up with the English and down with the rest!"

On 15/04/2024 02.17, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 21:11:59 -0000 (UTC), Cryptoengineer
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:

>>>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>>>> promise"
>>>>
>>>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>>>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>>>
>>> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
>>> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>>>
>>> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
>>> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.
>>>
>>
>> It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
>> England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
>> 60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
>> our carol service is a favorite memory.

> And in modern times was adopted by the British Labour party as their
> anthem. I've never heard it sung live but have heard numerous
> recordings of it - not sure if I heard it before Chariots of Fire or
> not.

I first encountered it on ELP's _Brain Salad Surgery_, which came out well
before _Chariots of Fire_ did. AAMOF, I've never seen "Chariots".
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Salad_Surgery>

--
Michael F. Stemper
I refuse to believe that a corporation is a person until Texas executes one.

On 4/15/24 9:03 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 15/04/2024 02.17, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 21:11:59 -0000 (UTC), Cryptoengineer
>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 2 Apr 2024 16:14:27 -0400, Cryptoengineer
>>>> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/2/2024 2:11 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>>>>>> These days it mostly exists in the song "Jerusalem" and practically
>>>>>> nowhere else in the UK - though I heard of one branch of the
>>>>>> philosophy / theology including the United States as part of "the
>>>>>> promise"
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? Blake wrote the poem used as lyrics in 1808. British Israelism
>>>>> came quite a bit later, and didn't gain much traction until the 1870s.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously I know when Blake was writing his poetry but no question it
>>>> was adopted by the BI types as "theirs".
>>>>
>>>> I never did understand how it became a political text (notably by the
>>>> British Labour party) having first encountered it in Chariots of Fire.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
>>> England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
>>> 60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
>>> our carol service is a favorite memory.
>
>> And in modern times was adopted by the British Labour party as their
>> anthem. I've never heard it sung live but have heard numerous
>> recordings of it - not sure if I heard it before Chariots of Fire or
>> not.
>
> I first encountered it on ELP's _Brain Salad Surgery_, which came out well
> before _Chariots of Fire_ did. AAMOF, I've never seen "Chariots".
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Salad_Surgery>
>

Until this thread, the only place I'd known of it at all was the ELP
version. Also until this thread, I didn't know it was in Chariots of
Fire (because I also haven't seen it, but the movie instrumental theme
is a nice piece of work).

Tony, not knowing much, until this thread

On 4/2/24 13:40, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <mcko0jlcbol6djm4mtvdgtsqldb3rpkea7@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>> I distinctly remember the line "You know the
>> 'rockets' red glare? the bombs bursting in air? Well those were OUR
>> rockets and OUR bombs - but we don't advertise that much to our
>> American friends these days!"
>
> [Hal Heydt]
> Congreve rockets and mortar rounds with the fuse cut too short,
> repsectively.

Would the fuses have been too short if they were trying for air bursts
to kill the guys on the walls?

--
----------------
Dave Scruggs
Senior Software Engineer - Lockheed Martin, et. al (mostly Retired)
Captain - Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)

In article <v06629$12h02$2@dont-email.me>, BCFD 36 <bcfd36@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On 4/2/24 13:40, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <mcko0jlcbol6djm4mtvdgtsqldb3rpkea7@4ax.com>,
>> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>> I distinctly remember the line "You know the
>>> 'rockets' red glare? the bombs bursting in air? Well those were OUR
>>> rockets and OUR bombs - but we don't advertise that much to our
>>> American friends these days!"
>>
>> [Hal Heydt]
>> Congreve rockets and mortar rounds with the fuse cut too short,
>> repsectively.
>
>Would the fuses have been too short if they were trying for air bursts
>to kill the guys on the walls?

[Hal Heydt]
Probably. They were--generally speaking--trying for as close to
ground contact detonation as possible. I think the air bursts
they got were way short of trying for shrapnel kills on the
walls.

The mortars in question were "double firing" type. First the
gunner lit the fuse of the shell, then he light the propellant
charge. It was later that it was determined that the gases from
burning propellant would go around the shell sufficiently to
light the shell fuse when the mortar was fired. With a double
firing design, you *really* didn't want to get distracted after
light the shell fuse.

On Sat, 20 Apr 2024 08:47:18 -0400, Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>>> It was a huge favorite in England long before the film. It's been called
>>>> England's second national anthem'. It was my school hymn back in the
>>>> 60s, and hearing a thousand people singing it in Wells Cathedral during
>>>> our carol service is a favorite memory.
>>
>>> And in modern times was adopted by the British Labour party as their
>>> anthem. I've never heard it sung live but have heard numerous
>>> recordings of it - not sure if I heard it before Chariots of Fire or
>>> not.
>>
>> I first encountered it on ELP's _Brain Salad Surgery_, which came out well
>> before _Chariots of Fire_ did. AAMOF, I've never seen "Chariots".
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Salad_Surgery>
>
>Until this thread, the only place I'd known of it at all was the ELP
>version. Also until this thread, I didn't know it was in Chariots of
>Fire (because I also haven't seen it, but the movie instrumental theme
>is a nice piece of work).

The lyrics were written by William Blake and put to music sometime
around Victorian times.

The movie starts and ends with the playing of Jerusalem at the funeral
of one of the runners Harold Abrahams, the other runner had gone on to
be a Christian missionary in China who had died during the Japanese
occupation. Abrahams was both Jewish and a high Labour party official
and the song become an unofficial Labour party anthem. (Which is how
you get a song that mentions Jesus sung at a Jewish funeral)

Great movie - won both the British BAFTA best picture and the Oscar
best picture back in the early 80s.

The opening scene featuring distance runners running on the beach is
one of the epic movie scenes you'll see in countless oompilations.