On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
> Can a transmitter easily
> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?

Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred years?

I think there was an improvement in reliability when the BBC UHF TV
services went 24 hours.

Famously when Tommy Flowers proposed using valves in Colossus at
Bletchley Park, many were sceptical but he had worked with valves at
Dollis Hill and knew they could be reliable if treated carefully.

By the way posted in this elsewhere in a discussion about the snow today.

In the 1970s or 1980s, we had a fault at work at a fairly new site which
coincidentally was accessed by a SnoTrac.

There was an antenna fault that dragged on for weeks because of the
limited access - daylight hours only which are short in the Highlands in
mid-Winter.

The riggers had equipment etc to get up to the site (1600ft asl) so
bought a small sledge which meant that for a short time, the BBC had an
official sledge.

In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>> Can a transmitter easily
>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>
>
>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>years?

It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
under-run.)

Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
more.
>
>I think there was an improvement in reliability when the BBC UHF TV
>services went 24 hours.

Wouldn't surprise me.
>
>Famously when Tommy Flowers proposed using valves in Colossus at
>Bletchley Park, many were sceptical but he had worked with valves at
>Dollis Hill and knew they could be reliable if treated carefully.
>
Given the alternative was relays, I am not at all surprised an
improvement was both expected and realised!
>
>
>
>
>
>By the way posted in this elsewhere in a discussion about the snow today.
[]
>bought a small sledge which meant that for a short time, the BBC had an
>official sledge.
>
I like it!
>
I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and probably
still have, official items that you would not expect.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Paxman, the man who has never used one sneer when three would do
- Elizabeth Day, RT 2015/5/2-8

On 16/01/2024 15:05, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
> similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and probably
> still have, official items that you would not expect.

Someone sent me this link recently, a company in the US is making
SnoTracs again.

https://www.sno-trac.com/

Not sure about the heated cabin, we always kept the back door tied open.

On 16/01/2024 16:50, JMB99 wrote:
> On 16/01/2024 15:05, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
>> similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and
>> probably still have, official items that you would not expect.
>
>
>
> Someone sent me this link recently, a company in the US is making
> SnoTracs again.
>
> https://www.sno-trac.com/
>
> Not sure about the heated cabin, we always kept the back door tied open.
>
>
>
"Essentially zero wear parts" Apart from the tracks, the drive wheels,
all the bearings on the idlers, the engine, the brakes...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article <K9SM9bS7spplFw0A@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> scribeth thus
>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>
>>
>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>years?
>
>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>under-run.)
>
>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>more.

They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...

I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
Droitwich ....

>>
>>I think there was an improvement in reliability when the BBC UHF TV
>>services went 24 hours.
>
>Wouldn't surprise me.
>>
>>Famously when Tommy Flowers proposed using valves in Colossus at
>>Bletchley Park, many were sceptical but he had worked with valves at
>>Dollis Hill and knew they could be reliable if treated carefully.
>>
>Given the alternative was relays, I am not at all surprised an
>improvement was both expected and realised!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>By the way posted in this elsewhere in a discussion about the snow today.
>[]
>>bought a small sledge which meant that for a short time, the BBC had an
>>official sledge.
>>
>I like it!
>>
>I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
>similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and probably
>still have, official items that you would not expect.

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:28:51 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <K9SM9bS7spplFw0A@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
><G6JPG@255soft.uk> scribeth thus
>>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>>
>>>
>>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>>years?
>>
>>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>>under-run.)
>>
>>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>>more.
>
>
>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>
>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>Droitwich ....

Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
buy?

In article <q8unqi16trt9r994mng9bkdigeft7tc396@4ax.com>, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:28:51 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <K9SM9bS7spplFw0A@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> scribeth thus
>>>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>>>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>>>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>>>years?
>>>
>>>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>>>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>>>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>>>under-run.)
>>>
>>>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>>>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>>>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>>>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>>>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>>>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>>>more.
>>
>>
>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>
>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>Droitwich ....
>
>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>buy?

Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
and Russia.

They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
power!..

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:08:16 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <q8unqi16trt9r994mng9bkdigeft7tc396@4ax.com>, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:28:51 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <K9SM9bS7spplFw0A@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>>>>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>>>>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>>>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>>>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>>>>years?
>>>>
>>>>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>>>>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>>>>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>>>>under-run.)
>>>>
>>>>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>>>>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>>>>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>>>>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>>>>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>>>>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>>>>more.
>>>
>>>
>>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>>
>>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>>Droitwich ....
>>
>>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>>buy?
>
>Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
>and Russia.
>
>They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
>they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
>cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
>power!..

I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
will remain in some form for a bit longer?

In article <m4qpqi9edqej4c4ushpcdk8cnnt926eqbh@4ax.com>, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:08:16 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <q8unqi16trt9r994mng9bkdigeft7tc396@4ax.com>, Scott
>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:28:51 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <K9SM9bS7spplFw0A@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
>>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>>>>>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>>>>>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>>>>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>>>>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>>>>>years?
>>>>>
>>>>>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>>>>>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>>>>>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>>>>>under-run.)
>>>>>
>>>>>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>>>>>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>>>>>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>>>>>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>>>>>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>>>>>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>>>>>more.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>>>
>>>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>>>Droitwich ....
>>>
>>>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>>>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>>>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>>>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>>>buy?
>>
>>Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
>>and Russia.
>>
>>They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
>>they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
>>cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
>>power!..
>
>I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
>shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
>will remain in some form for a bit longer?

Don't know re that but it does seems that its the price of mains power
thats dictating their actions.

I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:51:24 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <m4qpqi9edqej4c4ushpcdk8cnnt926eqbh@4ax.com>, Scott
><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:08:16 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <q8unqi16trt9r994mng9bkdigeft7tc396@4ax.com>, Scott
>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:28:51 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <K9SM9bS7spplFw0A@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
>>>>><G6JPG@255soft.uk> scribeth thus
>>>>>>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>>>>>>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> writes
>>>>>>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>>>>>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>>>>>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>>>>>>years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>>>>>>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>>>>>>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>>>>>>under-run.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>>>>>>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>>>>>>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>>>>>>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>>>>>>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>>>>>>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>>>>>>more.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>>>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>>>>
>>>>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>>>>Droitwich ....
>>>>
>>>>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>>>>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>>>>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>>>>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>>>>buy?
>>>
>>>Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
>>>and Russia.
>>>
>>>They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
>>>they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
>>>cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
>>>power!..
>>
>>I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
>>shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
>>will remain in some form for a bit longer?
>
>
>Don't know re that but it does seems that its the price of mains power
>thats dictating their actions.
>
>I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
>using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...

I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?

On 04/02/2024 16:02, Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:51:24 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
>> using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...
>
> I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
> power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?
>
The train operating companies are blaming the cost of electricity.

For freight, it is easier to swap locos than for passenger trains, as
the vast majority of passenger trains are now self powered multiple
units, bought to match the lines they are for.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

>>>>>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>>>>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>>>>>Droitwich ....
>>>>>
>>>>>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>>>>>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>>>>>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>>>>>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>>>>>buy?
>>>>
>>>>Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
>>>>and Russia.
>>>>
>>>>They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
>>>>they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
>>>>cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
>>>>power!..
>>>
>>>I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
>>>shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
>>>will remain in some form for a bit longer?
>>
>>
>>Don't know re that but it does seems that its the price of mains power
>>thats dictating their actions.
>>
>>I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
>>using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...
>
>I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?

No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
verses the cost of Diesel!.

Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
go where the power lines or rails go..

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:50:21 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>>>>>>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>>>>>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>>>>>>Droitwich ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>>>>>>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>>>>>>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>>>>>>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>>>>>>buy?
>>>>>
>>>>>Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
>>>>>and Russia.
>>>>>
>>>>>They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
>>>>>they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
>>>>>cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
>>>>>power!..
>>>>
>>>>I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
>>>>shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
>>>>will remain in some form for a bit longer?
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't know re that but it does seems that its the price of mains power
>>>thats dictating their actions.
>>>
>>>I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
>>>using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...
>>
>>I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>>power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?
>
>No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
>verses the cost of Diesel!.
>
I thought some routes had limited supply capacity and that
high-consuming freight locos were unwelcome, but this is probably one
for uk.railway.

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:50:21 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:
[snip]>>
>>I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>>power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?
>
>No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
>verses the cost of Diesel!.
>
>Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>go where the power lines or rails go..

You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
(uk.railway).

Scott wrote:

> tony sayer wrote:
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>>> power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?
>>
>> No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
>> verses the cost of Diesel!.
>>
>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>
> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
> (uk.railway).

I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?

The OHLE for Midland Mainline has just about reached south of Leicester,
I don't think EMR has bought any bimodal trains yet ...

Andy Burns wrote:

> The OHLE for Midland Mainline has just about reached south of Leicester,
> I don't think EMR has bought any bimodal trains yet ...

Seems they've got some on-order
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_810>

On 06/02/2024 11:56, Andy Burns wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>> tony sayer wrote:
>>
>>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>>
>> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
>> (uk.railway).
>
> I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?
>
Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
to run.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 15:37:22 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 06/02/2024 11:56, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> tony sayer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>>>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>>>
>>> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
>>> (uk.railway).
>>
>> I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?
>>
>Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>to run.

Nothing to do with the environment then? I suppose in the old days
electricity was mainly generated using coal.

On 06/02/2024 18:22, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 15:37:22 +0000, John Williamson
> <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/02/2024 11:56, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> tony sayer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>>>>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>>>>
>>>> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
>>>> (uk.railway).
>>>
>>> I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?
>>>
>> Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>> encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>> to run.
>
> Nothing to do with the environment then? I suppose in the old days
> electricity was mainly generated using coal.
>
The environment thing is fairly recent, but until they got rid of coal,
diesels made much less pollution per horsepower hour than electric. If
you look behind the sales talk, the National Grid is a horribly
inefficient way to go from fuel to wheel, whereas a well designed diesel
can be as efficient as any land based power station with none of the
transmission losses. The Powers That Be now use the CO2 emissions of
renewable sources as a marketing point to make it easier to sell the
wires. Electric (Be it trains, buses, vans or cars) also moves the
pollution from the point of use to somewhere else. Cities are cleaner,
while the countryside gets the pollution.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 06/02/2024 18:55, John Williamson wrote:
> On 06/02/2024 18:22, Scott wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 15:37:22 +0000, John Williamson
>> <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/02/2024 11:56, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> tony sayer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>>>>>
>>>>> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
>>>>> (uk.railway).
>>>>
>>>> I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?
>>>>
>>> Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>>> encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>>> to run.
>>
>> Nothing to do with the environment then? I suppose in the old days
>> electricity was mainly generated using coal.
>>
> The environment thing is fairly recent, but until they got rid of coal,
> diesels made much less pollution per horsepower hour than electric. If
> you look behind the sales talk, the National Grid is a horribly
> inefficient way to go from fuel to wheel, whereas a well designed diesel
> can be as efficient as any land based power station with none of the
> transmission losses. The Powers That Be now use the CO2 emissions of
> renewable sources as a marketing point to make it easier to sell the
> wires. Electric (Be it trains, buses, vans or cars) also moves the
> pollution from the point of use to somewhere else. Cities are cleaner,
> while the countryside gets the pollution.
>
By the way,I count the way that renewables take up *lots* of land to be
a form of pollution, especially if you consider the pollution caused by
making and siting wind turbines and solar panels. Even tidal power can
wreck the environment in the estuary.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott wrote:

> John Williamson wrote:
>
>> Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>> encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>> to run.
>
> Nothing to do with the environment then?

I think Network Rail *do* have a traction decarbonisation strategy?

On 06/02/2024 19:55, Andy Burns wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>> John Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>>> encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>>> to run.
>>
>> Nothing to do with the environment then?
>
> I think Network Rail *do* have a traction decarbonisation strategy?
>
>
Executive summary from their own documents:-

"Ending rail’s contribution to emissions by removing diesel trains.
Further minimizing carbon emissions through optimised cascade of the
cleanest compliant diesel trains."

The main document waffles on about hydrogen and battery powered trains,
among other things.

They also have a "We must make a profit" strategy.

Network Rail are not directly responsible for sourcing motive power, all
they can do is put pressure on the train operating companies, some of
which are now, once again, state owned.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 06/02/2024 19:41, John Williamson wrote:
> By the way,I count the way that renewables take up *lots* of land to be
> a form of pollution, especially if you consider the pollution caused by
> making and siting wind turbines and solar panels. Even tidal power can
> wreck the environment in the estuary.

The chap who got an award for his work on wind power stations was on the
radio this morning, claimed he thought they were beautiful but of course
he could not see any from his home!

They typical bribe areas having them - I bet the same people used to
criticise the nuclear industry when they similarly gave grants to areas
near a nuclear power station (perhaps we should follow the wind power
people and call them farms as it sounds better!).

They make promises to reinstate the sites but I have read reports of
turbine towers replaced by bigger one but never read of the hundreds of
tons of concrete in the ground being removed!

Then there are the whole networks of roads to the sites. In this
newsgroup it is amusing to think of the moans when a 50ft tower for a
transmitting station was put on a hilltop!

On Tue, 6 Feb 2024 22:30:54 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On 06/02/2024 19:55, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> John Williamson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>>>> encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>>>> to run.
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with the environment then?
>>
>> I think Network Rail *do* have a traction decarbonisation strategy?
>>
>>
>Executive summary from their own documents:-
>
>"Ending rail’s contribution to emissions by removing diesel trains.
>Further minimizing carbon emissions through optimised cascade of the
>cleanest compliant diesel trains."
>
>The main document waffles on about hydrogen and battery powered trains,
>among other things.
>
>They also have a "We must make a profit" strategy.
>
>Network Rail are not directly responsible for sourcing motive power, all
>they can do is put pressure on the train operating companies, some of
>which are now, once again, state owned.

Very effective 'pressure' if it is done via access charges.

Op 15-1-2024 om 23:25 schreef Brian Gregory:
> On 20/11/2023 10:53, Scott wrote:
>> What do the Danes do at Kalundborg? I understood they broadcast
>> shipping forcasts and news summaries only with long periods of
>> silence.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalundborg_Transmitter
>

According to that wikipedia page the Danes closed the longwave on
31-dec-2023.

Final Broadcast on YouTube (received in Romania):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7SvL-h7fWM

Rink