Hi All,

I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
response….

There are some updates at the end…

“I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…

It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in which
case the engine barely turned over.

A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.

Replaced the battery, no difference.

Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near the
starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
morning (-7 degrees).

I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is fine).

So next step…..

Replace starter??

Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning prior
to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of really
cold days between now & spring??

Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like the
cold??”

I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the car)
and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…

I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).

I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no heated
rear window or other power hungry stuff.

Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start the
car without the jump start pack…

It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
started yo slow down.

I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
relatively slowly.

I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near identical)
car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.

However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
engine without any issues.

Thoughts??

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
> response….
>
> There are some updates at the end…
>
> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>
> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
> which case the engine barely turned over.
>
> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>
> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>
> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
> morning (-7 degrees).
>
> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
> fine).
>
> So next step…..
>
> Replace starter??
>
> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
> really cold days between now & spring??
>
> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
> the cold??”
>
> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
> car)
> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>
> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>
> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>
> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
> the car without the jump start pack…
>
> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
> started yo slow down.
>
> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
> relatively slowly.
>
> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
> identical)
> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>
> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
> engine without any issues.
>
> Thoughts??

Have you checked the pre-heater coil and also diesel goes thick in cold
weather and doesn't flow from the tank easily.

On 19/01/2024 13:18, Smolley wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>> response….
>>
>> There are some updates at the end…
>>
>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>
>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>
>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>
>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>
>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>
>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>> fine).
>>
>> So next step…..
>>
>> Replace starter??
>>
>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>
>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>> the cold??”
>>
>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>> car)
>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>
>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>
>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>
>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>> started yo slow down.
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>> relatively slowly.
>>
>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>> identical)
>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>
>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>> engine without any issues.
>>
>> Thoughts??
>
> Have you checked the pre-heater coil and also diesel goes thick in cold
> weather and doesn't flow from the tank easily.

Diesel is sold with enough additives to make that not a problem and the
fuel pumps should be able to deal with the extra viscosity.

Batteries can be load checked at any halfords or battery supplier

On a 'crank no (cold) start' on a diesel, it's generally glo plugs. If
it otherwise runs OK.

If its barely starting and running like crap, suspect low pressure fuel
pump.

If its not cranking at all hardly, something else is up. Something
electrical

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

On 19/01/2024 13:18, Smolley wrote:
...
> Have you checked the pre-heater coil and also diesel goes thick in cold
> weather and doesn't flow from the tank easily.

In the winter of 1963, at Old Oak Common railway yard, they had fires in
old oil drums between the tracks to try to keep the diesel in the
locomotives warm enough to flow. It worked until one night somebody let
them go out and the next morning steam shunting engines were the only
locomotives that would work.

--
Colin Bignell

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 14:20:04 +0000, Colin Bignell wrote:

> On 19/01/2024 13:18, Smolley wrote:
> ..
>> Have you checked the pre-heater coil and also diesel goes thick in cold
>> weather and doesn't flow from the tank easily.
>
> In the winter of 1963, at Old Oak Common railway yard, they had fires in
> old oil drums between the tracks to try to keep the diesel in the
> locomotives warm enough to flow. It worked until one night somebody let
> them go out and the next morning steam shunting engines were the only
> locomotives that would work.

It was very cold over that period, but not so bad as 1947.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
> response….
>
> There are some updates at the end…
>
> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>
> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
> which case the engine barely turned over.
>
> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>
> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>
> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
> morning (-7 degrees).
>
> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
> fine).
>
> So next step…..
>
> Replace starter??
>
> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
> really cold days between now & spring??
>
> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
> the cold??”
>
> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
> car)
> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>
> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>
> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>
> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
> the car without the jump start pack…
>
> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
> started yo slow down.
>
> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
> relatively slowly.
>
> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
> identical)
> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>
> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
> engine without any issues.
>
> Thoughts??

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%
3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%
3Dc836e2712bbc4ee2b92e61a60619fd23%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%
3D153538468747%26itm%3D334391368107%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4429486%
26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRanker&_trksid=p4429486.c101224.m-1

On 19/01/2024 13:18, Smolley wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>> response….
>>
>> There are some updates at the end…
>>
>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>
>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>
>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>
>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>
>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>
>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>> fine).
>>
>> So next step…..
>>
>> Replace starter??
>>
>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>
>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>> the cold??”
>>
>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>> car)
>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>
>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>
>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>
>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>> started yo slow down.
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>> relatively slowly.
>>
>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>> identical)
>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>
>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>> engine without any issues.
>>
>> Thoughts??
>
> Have you checked the pre-heater coil and also diesel goes thick in cold
> weather and doesn't flow from the tank easily.

Does it have a pre-heater coil?

Before replacing glow plugs, as per your latest post, I would use a DC
clamp-meter to measure current to the glow plugs rather than simple
replacing them?

On 19/01/2024 14:51, Smolley wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 14:20:04 +0000, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>> On 19/01/2024 13:18, Smolley wrote:
>> ..
>>> Have you checked the pre-heater coil and also diesel goes thick in cold
>>> weather and doesn't flow from the tank easily.
>>
>> In the winter of 1963, at Old Oak Common railway yard, they had fires in
>> old oil drums between the tracks to try to keep the diesel in the
>> locomotives warm enough to flow. It worked until one night somebody let
>> them go out and the next morning steam shunting engines were the only
>> locomotives that would work.
>
> It was very cold over that period, but not so bad as 1947.

Not so many diesel locomotives in use then though.

--
Colin Bignell

On 19/01/2024 15:13, Smolley wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>> response….
>>
>> There are some updates at the end…
>>
>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>
>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>
>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>
>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>
>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>
>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>> fine).
>>
>> So next step…..
>>
>> Replace starter??
>>
>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>
>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>> the cold??”
>>
>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>> car)
>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>
>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>
>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>
>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>> started yo slow down.
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>> relatively slowly.
>>
>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>> identical)
>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>
>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>> engine without any issues.
>>
>> Thoughts??
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%
> 3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%
> 3Dc836e2712bbc4ee2b92e61a60619fd23%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%
> 3D153538468747%26itm%3D334391368107%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4429486%
> 26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRanker&_trksid=p4429486.c101224.m-1

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107 will get you there.

But if its not starting once *warm*, it's probably not glow plugs

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On 19/01/2024 16:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/01/2024 15:13, Smolley wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>>> response….
>>>
>>> There are  some updates at the end…
>>>
>>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>>
>>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>>
>>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>>
>>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>>
>>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>>
>>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>>> fine).
>>>
>>> So next step…..
>>>
>>> Replace starter??
>>>
>>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>>
>>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>>> the cold??”
>>>
>>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>>> car)
>>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>>
>>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>>
>>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>>
>>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>>
>>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>>> started yo slow down.
>>>
>>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>>> relatively slowly.
>>>
>>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>>> identical)
>>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>>
>>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>>> engine without any issues.
>>>
>>> Thoughts??
>>
>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%
>> 3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%
>> 3Dc836e2712bbc4ee2b92e61a60619fd23%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%
>> 3D153538468747%26itm%3D334391368107%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4429486%
>> 26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRanker&_trksid=p4429486.c101224.m-1
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107 will get you there.
>
> But if its not starting once *warm*, it's probably not glow plugs

Sounds like a job for a code reader to check fuel pressure on cranking,
assuming this has a HP fuel pump.

To me though it sounds like the engine is stiff and the method of powering
the starter, or the starter itself, have not got enough guts to actually
turn over the engine. Diesels tend to be this way in cold wether, and many
big trucks actually warm the fuel at start up, I can remember back in the
big freeze of 63, that the fuel was in fact freezing in the tanks. The
worrying thing in your story for me is the problem of voltage drop on what
should be a direct and short DC path through a decent relay or solenoid, yet
its often starts with jump leads, My late father used to say it was a very
bad switch that was the cause
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Holmes" <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uodrc2$350nh$1@dont-email.me...
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn't get much
> response..
>
> There are some updates at the end.
>
> "I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22.
>
> It didn't like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in which
> case the engine barely turned over.
>
> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>
> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>
> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
> the
> starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
> morning (-7 degrees).
>
> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is fine).
>
> So next step...
>
> Replace starter??
>
> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning prior
> to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of really
> cold days between now & spring??
>
> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn't like the
> cold??"
>
> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
> car)
> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read "Ful".
>
> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>
> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no heated
> rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>
> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start the
> car without the jump start pack.
>
> It span over reasonably fast, but didn't start. After about 5 seconds it
> started yo slow down.
>
> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
> relatively slowly.
>
> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife's (near identical)
> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>
> However, I would've thought that if the alternator was working as it
> should, it would've put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
> engine without any issues.
>
> Thoughts??

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 19/01/2024 15:13, Smolley wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>>> response….
>>>
>>> There are some updates at the end…
>>>
>>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>>
>>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>>
>>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>>
>>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>>
>>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>>
>>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>>> fine).
>>>
>>> So next step…..
>>>
>>> Replace starter??
>>>
>>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>>
>>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>>> the cold??”
>>>
>>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>>> car)
>>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>>
>>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>>
>>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>>
>>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>>
>>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>>> started yo slow down.
>>>
>>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>>> relatively slowly.
>>>
>>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>>> identical)
>>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>>
>>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>>> engine without any issues.
>>>
>>> Thoughts??
>>
>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%
>> 3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%
>> 3Dc836e2712bbc4ee2b92e61a60619fd23%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%
>> 3D153538468747%26itm%3D334391368107%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4429486%
>> 26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRanker&_trksid=p4429486.c101224.m-1
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107 will get you there.
>
> But if its not starting once *warm*, it's probably not glow plugs
>

It just started fine at 6 degrees C after sitting about 7 hours. (with the
jump start pack (may have done so without, but I couldnt risk it).

I am beginning think that the battery performs well under spec at -7.

Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2024 15:13, Smolley wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>>>> response….
>>>>
>>>> There are some updates at the end…
>>>>
>>>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>>>
>>>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>>>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>>>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>>>
>>>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>>>
>>>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>>>
>>>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>>>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>>>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>>>
>>>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>>>> fine).
>>>>
>>>> So next step…..
>>>>
>>>> Replace starter??
>>>>
>>>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>>>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>>>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>>>
>>>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>>>> the cold??”
>>>>
>>>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>>>> car)
>>>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>>>
>>>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>>>
>>>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>>>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>>>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>>>
>>>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>>>> started yo slow down.
>>>>
>>>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>>>> relatively slowly.
>>>>
>>>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>>>> identical)
>>>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>>>
>>>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>>>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>>>> engine without any issues.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts??
>>>
>>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%
>>> 3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%
>>> 3Dc836e2712bbc4ee2b92e61a60619fd23%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%
>>> 3D153538468747%26itm%3D334391368107%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4429486%
>>> 26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRanker&_trksid=p4429486.c101224.m-1
>>
>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107 will get you there.
>>
>> But if its not starting once *warm*, it's probably not glow plugs
>>
>
> It just started fine at 6 degrees C after sitting about 7 hours. (with the
> jump start pack (may have done so without, but I couldnt risk it).
>
> I am beginning think that the battery performs well under spec at -7.
>
>

Has someone dumped a load of 20/50 oil in the engine instead of the modern
runny stuff?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 20/01/2024 14:22, Tim+ wrote:
> Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2024 15:13, Smolley wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 +0000, Chris Holmes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>>>>> response….
>>>>>
>>>>> There are some updates at the end…
>>>>>
>>>>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>>>>
>>>>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>>>>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>>>>> which case the engine barely turned over.
>>>>>
>>>>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near
>>>>> the starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>>>>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>>>>
>>>>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>>>>> fine).
>>>>>
>>>>> So next step…..
>>>>>
>>>>> Replace starter??
>>>>>
>>>>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>>>>> prior to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of
>>>>> really cold days between now & spring??
>>>>>
>>>>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>>>>> the cold??”
>>>>>
>>>>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the
>>>>> car)
>>>>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>>>>
>>>>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>>>>
>>>>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>>>>> heated rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start
>>>>> the car without the jump start pack…
>>>>>
>>>>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>>>>> started yo slow down.
>>>>>
>>>>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>>>>> relatively slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>>>>> identical)
>>>>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>>>>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>>>>> engine without any issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts??
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%
>>>> 3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%
>>>> 3Dc836e2712bbc4ee2b92e61a60619fd23%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%
>>>> 3D153538468747%26itm%3D334391368107%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4429486%
>>>> 26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebV9BertRefreshRanker&_trksid=p4429486.c101224.m-1
>>>
>>> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334391368107 will get you there.
>>>
>>> But if its not starting once *warm*, it's probably not glow plugs
>>>
>>
>> It just started fine at 6 degrees C after sitting about 7 hours. (with the
>> jump start pack (may have done so without, but I couldnt risk it).
>>
>> I am beginning think that the battery performs well under spec at -7.
>>
>>
>
> Has someone dumped a load of 20/50 oil in the engine instead of the modern
> runny stuff?
>
That doesnt fit the symptoms.

It isn't starting well *even when warm*..

> Tim
>

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
– H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 1/20/2024 5:24 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
> To me though it sounds like the engine is stiff and the method of powering
> the starter, or the starter itself, have not got enough guts to actually
> turn over the engine. Diesels tend to be this way in cold wether, and many
> big trucks actually warm the fuel at start up, I can remember back in the
> big freeze of 63, that the fuel was in fact freezing in the tanks. The
> worrying thing in your story for me is the problem of voltage drop on what
> should be a direct and short DC path through a decent relay or solenoid, yet
> its often starts with jump leads, My late father used to say it was a very
> bad switch that was the cause
> Brian
>

Voltage drop is normal though.

I've recorded the transient behavior of my car starter.

T=0 Battery voltage 12.5V

Trough voltage at battery terminals 9.5V at ~150 amps (mid-crank, just before ignition)

Both the voltage and current, were recorded by meters
that have peak/trough record capability. The 150 amps then,
is the "peak" current. A good starter on a petrol engine
(depending on displacement and number of cylinders),
can be between 100 amps and 150 amps for a four cylinder.

I have no idea what a diesel is, but they're going to
pick an electric motor for the starter, suited to a range
of conditions, including starting at -30C.

You can do the maths, 3V drop divided by 150 amps, to get
a rough idea of the internal impedance of the battery that day.

I would suspect the voltage regulator is not charging the
battery properly. That is a common practice on modern cars.
That, and vampire loads overnight, draining the battery down.
Sticking a clamp-on DC ammeter on the main battery cable,
will tell you what the leakage current is.

If a car is having trouble starting, and the battery and voltage
regulator are working properly, you should get maybe a half
dozen cranks before the battery is used up. If you do one crank,
and a second crank is "squeamish", then the battery was never
full in the first place. The fullness of a battery, requires
a temperature correction, for accuracy. Whether you use terminal
voltage (after battery has settled), or use a hydrometer, both
have a temperature correction table to determine "fullness".

When a lead acid battery is fully charged, it's roughly
like laboratory 12 molar H2SO4. When a battery is drained,
the freezing point of the battery is only -2C and the
consistency of the liquid, is like water. The syrup consistency
and 12 molar equivalent, tells you the battery is doing reasonably
well. A fully charged battery will not freeze until -55C.
If you find your battery frozen, it means it is in a poor
state of charge.

On the old cars, you'd just "bend a piece of metal" on the voltage
regulator, to change the regulation point. On some modern cars,
the mechanic will claim they have no ability to change the crappy
behavior of the car computer. Exactly why "sub-charging" a battery
is good for it, that escapes me. A battery works a lot better, if
you keep it charged and keep it out of the soup.

If this was my car, I would be running the mains-powered charger
on the battery. During charging, the terminal voltage rises to
14.4V or so. If the voltage rises higher than that (16-18V),
then the battery is bad. A smart charger, can also give an indication
via LED display, that the battery is bad. The charger needs to be
temperature-compensated, to predict the fullness of the battery
when filling it. It will make filling errors (like mine), if
it does not have temperature compensation build in. Some professional
chargers, actually have a temperature probe you fit to a battery
terminal, to get some idea of current battery temperature.

If the car starts properly at -7C, and it has just received a mains
charge cycle, and yet the car won't start at -7C if the car
charged its own battery, then you have to ask the shop "WTF"
regarding voltage regulator setting.

Paul

On 20/01/2024 19:22, Paul wrote:
> On 1/20/2024 5:24 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> To me though it sounds like the engine is stiff and the method of powering
>> the starter, or the starter itself, have not got enough guts to actually
>> turn over the engine. Diesels tend to be this way in cold wether, and many
>> big trucks actually warm the fuel at start up, I can remember back in the
>> big freeze of 63, that the fuel was in fact freezing in the tanks. The
>> worrying thing in your story for me is the problem of voltage drop on what
>> should be a direct and short DC path through a decent relay or solenoid, yet
>> its often starts with jump leads, My late father used to say it was a very
>> bad switch that was the cause
>> Brian
>>
>
> Voltage drop is normal though.
>
> I've recorded the transient behavior of my car starter.
>
> T=0 Battery voltage 12.5V
>
> Trough voltage at battery terminals 9.5V at ~150 amps (mid-crank, just before ignition)
>
> Both the voltage and current, were recorded by meters
> that have peak/trough record capability. The 150 amps then,
> is the "peak" current. A good starter on a petrol engine
> (depending on displacement and number of cylinders),
> can be between 100 amps and 150 amps for a four cylinder.
>
> I have no idea what a diesel is, but they're going to
> pick an electric motor for the starter, suited to a range
> of conditions, including starting at -30C.
>
> You can do the maths, 3V drop divided by 150 amps, to get
> a rough idea of the internal impedance of the battery that day.
>
> I would suspect the voltage regulator is not charging the
> battery properly. That is a common practice on modern cars.
> That, and vampire loads overnight, draining the battery down.
> Sticking a clamp-on DC ammeter on the main battery cable,
> will tell you what the leakage current is.
>
> If a car is having trouble starting, and the battery and voltage
> regulator are working properly, you should get maybe a half
> dozen cranks before the battery is used up. If you do one crank,
> and a second crank is "squeamish", then the battery was never
> full in the first place. The fullness of a battery, requires
> a temperature correction, for accuracy. Whether you use terminal
> voltage (after battery has settled), or use a hydrometer, both
> have a temperature correction table to determine "fullness".
>
> When a lead acid battery is fully charged, it's roughly
> like laboratory 12 molar H2SO4. When a battery is drained,
> the freezing point of the battery is only -2C and the
> consistency of the liquid, is like water. The syrup consistency
> and 12 molar equivalent, tells you the battery is doing reasonably
> well. A fully charged battery will not freeze until -55C.
> If you find your battery frozen, it means it is in a poor
> state of charge.
>
> On the old cars, you'd just "bend a piece of metal" on the voltage
> regulator, to change the regulation point. On some modern cars,
> the mechanic will claim they have no ability to change the crappy
> behavior of the car computer. Exactly why "sub-charging" a battery
> is good for it, that escapes me. A battery works a lot better, if
> you keep it charged and keep it out of the soup.

There is a good reason, reducing alternator load reduces fuel
consumption and hence emissions per mile.

Most cars now charge it's battery to 90% and then only increase the
level of charge when coasting.

> If this was my car, I would be running the mains-powered charger
> on the battery. During charging, the terminal voltage rises to
> 14.4V or so. If the voltage rises higher than that (16-18V),
> then the battery is bad.

Sorry, I disagree. A good battery will allow the volts to rise when at
at full charge capacity. A poor one will gas and hold the volts at a
lower level.

> A smart charger, can also give an indication
> via LED display, that the battery is bad. The charger needs to be
> temperature-compensated, to predict the fullness of the battery
> when filling it. It will make filling errors (like mine), if
> it does not have temperature compensation build in. Some professional
> chargers, actually have a temperature probe you fit to a battery
> terminal, to get some idea of current battery temperature.
>
> If the car starts properly at -7C, and it has just received a mains
> charge cycle, and yet the car won't start at -7C if the car
> charged its own battery, then you have to ask the shop "WTF"
> regarding voltage regulator setting.

As above. It also depends on how long a journey you have to put the
energy used in starting back into the battery.

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 -0000 (UTC), Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Hi All,
>
>I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>response….
>
>There are some updates at the end…
>
>“I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>
>It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in which
>case the engine barely turned over.
>
>A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>
>Replaced the battery, no difference.
>
>Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near the
>starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>morning (-7 degrees).
>
>I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is fine).
>
>So next step…..
>
>Replace starter??
>
>Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning prior
>to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of really
>cold days between now & spring??
>
>Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like the
>cold??”
>
>I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the car)
>and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>
>I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>
>I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no heated
>rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>
>Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start the
>car without the jump start pack…
>
>It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>started yo slow down.
>
>I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>relatively slowly.
>
>I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near identical)
>car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>
>However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>engine without any issues.
>
>Thoughts??

Measure the current.

As you might not have a (clamp) ammeter that does DC and the range required, the
voltage drop along, say, the ground strap is a good proxy. "Calibrate" by
turning on the headlights, calculating the nominal current draw (2 * 55 watts is
110 W and about 9 amps at 12 Volts) and putting that into relation to the
voltage drop on the ground strap (a few to a few hundred millivolts).

Before going for the glow plugs (expensive), check the glow plug fuse (reseat or
replace, usually a strip of metal, cheap) and the glow plug relay.

Just my 5 eurocents.

Thomas Prufer

On 21/01/2024 08:17, Thomas Prufer wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 -0000 (UTC), Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>> response….
>>
>> There are some updates at the end…
>>
>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>
>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in which
>> case the engine barely turned over.
>>
>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>
>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>
>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near the
>> starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>
>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is fine).
>>
>> So next step…..
>>
>> Replace starter??
>>
>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning prior
>> to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of really
>> cold days between now & spring??
>>
>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like the
>> cold??”
>>
>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the car)
>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>
>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no heated
>> rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>
>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start the
>> car without the jump start pack…
>>
>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>> started yo slow down.
>>
>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>> relatively slowly.
>>
>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near identical)
>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>
>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>> engine without any issues.
>>
>> Thoughts??
>
> Measure the current.
>
> As you might not have a (clamp) ammeter that does DC and the range required, the
> voltage drop along, say, the ground strap is a good proxy. "Calibrate" by
> turning on the headlights, calculating the nominal current draw (2 * 55 watts is
> 110 W and about 9 amps at 12 Volts) and putting that into relation to the
> voltage drop on the ground strap (a few to a few hundred millivolts).
>
> Before going for the glow plugs (expensive), check the glow plug fuse (reseat or
> replace, usually a strip of metal, cheap) and the glow plug relay.
>
Before fucking with the glo plugs, bear in mind they play no part on a
warm start whatsoever.

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

On 21/01/2024 10:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/01/2024 08:17, Thomas Prufer wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:53:22 -0000 (UTC), Chris Holmes
>> <chrispvholmes@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
>>> response….
>>>
>>> There are  some updates at the end…
>>>
>>> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>>>
>>> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
>>> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in
>>> which
>>> case the engine barely turned over.
>>>
>>> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>>>
>>> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>>>
>>> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine
>>> (near the
>>> starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
>>> morning (-7 degrees).
>>>
>>> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is
>>> fine).
>>>
>>> So next step…..
>>>
>>> Replace starter??
>>>
>>> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning
>>> prior
>>> to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of really
>>> cold days between now & spring??
>>>
>>> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like
>>> the
>>> cold??”
>>>
>>> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to
>>> the car)
>>> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>>>
>>> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>>>
>>> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no
>>> heated
>>> rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>>>
>>> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to
>>> start the
>>> car without the jump start pack…
>>>
>>> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
>>> started yo slow down.
>>>
>>> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
>>> relatively slowly.
>>>
>>> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near
>>> identical)
>>> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>>>
>>> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
>>> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
>>> engine without any issues.
>>>
>>> Thoughts??
>>
>> Measure the current.
>>
>> As you might not have a (clamp) ammeter that does DC and the range
>> required, the
>> voltage drop along, say, the ground strap is a good proxy. "Calibrate" by
>> turning on the headlights, calculating the nominal current draw (2 *
>> 55 watts is
>> 110 W and about 9 amps at 12 Volts) and putting that into relation to the
>> voltage drop on the ground strap (a few to a few hundred millivolts).
>>
>> Before going for the glow plugs (expensive), check the glow plug fuse
>> (reseat or
>> replace, usually a strip of metal, cheap) and the glow plug relay.
>>
> Before fucking with the glo plugs, bear in mind they play no part on a
> warm start whatsoever.

They might not on a very old vehicle, but modern diesels with a moderate
turbo boost will often run the glow plugs for some time after starting.
Including a warm start.

High turbo boosts along with emission regulation results in lower
compression ratios.

If the air temperature is very low, even with a modest compression, you
might still need a glow plug for successful detonation.

Making sure the glow plugs are working is a smart option before
attending anything else. I also think a clamp meter capable of measuring
DC current (be careful in your purchase as some only do AC current) is a
very useful tool.

On Friday 19 January 2024 at 12:53:27 UTC, Chris Holmes wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I posted the following in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but fidn’t get much
> response….
>
> There are some updates at the end…
>
> “I bought a 2006 2.2 D Toyota Corolla Verso in Nov 22…
>
> It didn’t like starting in the cold / damp. It could be started with the
> aid of a jump start pack, unless it was below 0 degrees Celsius, in which
> case the engine barely turned over.
>
> A jump start from a similar spec car would then start it.
>
> Replaced the battery, no difference.
>
> Fitted a supplementary earth cable from the battery to the engine (near the
> starter) and it now starts without the jump start pack, but not this
> morning (-7 degrees).
>
> I (and a tyre place) have tested the battery (when warm) and it is fine).
>
> So next step…..
>
> Replace starter??
>
> Or could I put the battery on charge for a few hours in the morning prior
> to trying to start (and thus nurse it through the small number of really
> cold days between now & spring??
>
> Or test the battery on a cold morning (perhaps it really doesn’t like the
> cold??”
>
> I had the battery on a smart charger last night (still attached to the car)
> and this morning (7 degrees C) and it read “Ful”…
>
> I put the jump start pack on and the car started (a little reluctantly).
>
> I then drove for half an hour or so (dipped beam on, A/C on, but no heated
> rear window or other power hungry stuff.
>
> Then switched off (lights off) for 5 minutes or so, and tried to start the
> car without the jump start pack…
>
> It span over reasonably fast, but didn’t start. After about 5 seconds it
> started yo slow down.
>
> I put the jump start pack on, and thankfully it started (after turning
> relatively slowly.
>
> I am going to swap the battery with the one in my wife’s (near identical)
> car and see if the fault stays with the car, or goes with the battery.
>
> However, I would’ve thought that if the alternator was working as it
> should, it would’ve put enough back in the battery for starting a warm
> engine without any issues.
>
> Thoughts??

It's worth being aware that some diesels need every bit of their cranking speed to get going. In such cases even a hardly noticeable drop can fail to start.
I'd start by checking 3 things:
1. battery charge, using a temp/charge/voltage table.
2. Alternator output voltage
3. Check you terminals & clamps are cleaned, greased & properly seated

<Snip>

So. last weekend I swapped the batteries between the two cars…

My car still has the issues, and the other is fine. Which is what I
suspected would happen.

One dark morning this week I stalled the car after about half an hour (with
dipped headlights on)….

Tried to restart without getting out to put the jump pack on…

Not only did it not start due to turning over very slowly, but I couldn’t
get it to stop trying to start (It has a start / stop button, which wasn’t
responding).

Fortunately, it started when I got the jump pack connected.

I begin to wonder if It has 2 faults….

One, the alternator isn’t putting out enough current to run “the car”
(involuting headlights) while also putting a decent amount of charge back
into the battery (but the voltmeter plugged into the cigar lighter shows
14ish V when running)

Two, it takes more current than it should to crank the engine.

On Friday 26 January 2024 at 22:39:02 UTC, Chris Holmes wrote:
> <Snip>
>
> So. last weekend I swapped the batteries between the two cars…
>
> My car still has the issues, and the other is fine. Which is what I
> suspected would happen.
>
> One dark morning this week I stalled the car after about half an hour (with
> dipped headlights on)….
>
> Tried to restart without getting out to put the jump pack on…
>
> Not only did it not start due to turning over very slowly, but I couldn’t
> get it to stop trying to start (It has a start / stop button, which wasn’t
> responding).
>
> Fortunately, it started when I got the jump pack connected.
>
> I begin to wonder if It has 2 faults….
>
> One, the alternator isn’t putting out enough current to run “the car”
> (involuting headlights) while also putting a decent amount of charge back
> into the battery (but the voltmeter plugged into the cigar lighter shows
> 14ish V when running)
>
> Two, it takes more current than it should to crank the engine.

What battery voltage do you get during cranking? 9-10v is ok. High means a high resistance point in the start circuit, low means the battery isn't coping.
14v is a little low in warm weather, I'd expect more midwinter. That might be your primary problem.
Charge endpoint at 0degC: 15.3v. At 10degC: 15.06v
Sounds like either your meter or alternator isn't right.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 09:38:58 +1100, Chris Holmes <chrispvholmes@gmail.com>
wrote:

> <Snip>
>
> So. last weekend I swapped the batteries between the two cars…
>
> My car still has the issues, and the other is fine. Which is what I
> suspected would happen.
>
> One dark morning this week I stalled the car after about half an hour
> (with
> dipped headlights on)….
>
> Tried to restart without getting out to put the jump pack on…
>
> Not only did it not start due to turning over very slowly, but I couldn’t
> get it to stop trying to start (It has a start / stop button, which
> wasn’t
> responding).
>
> Fortunately, it started when I got the jump pack connected.
>
> I begin to wonder if It has 2 faults….
>
> One, the alternator isn’t putting out enough current to run “the car”
> (involuting headlights) while also putting a decent amount of charge
> back
> into the battery (but the voltmeter plugged into the cigar lighter shows
> 14ish V when running)

So that isnt likely to be the problem and you should
check the voltage when cranking the engine over.

> Two, it takes more current than it should to crank the engine.

Or its got a poor connection to the starter motor or a faulty starter
solenoid and that's why it turns the engiine over too slowly to start.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2024 10:25:24 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID: <id04c3F50peU1@mid.individual.net>

Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

<Snip>
>
> What battery voltage do you get during cranking? 9-10v is ok. High means
> a high resistance point in the start circuit, low means the battery isn't coping.
> 14v is a little low in warm weather, I'd expect more midwinter. That
> might be your primary problem.
> Charge endpoint at 0degC: 15.3v. At 10degC: 15.06v
> Sounds like either your meter or alternator isn't right.
>
>

Thanks for that, I’ll check the voltage when cranking…..

Hmm…. the cigar lighter gets turned off then I think, so I’ll have to find
another way to monitor it.

Are you saying that 5.3V would be normal / ok when a car is running /
charging?

When my last car was up around that voltage (with a “supercacacitor” in //
with the battery), someone on another forum told me anything over 14.5
could fry things.

In other news, yesterday in a nice warm multi-storey car park, (with the
jump pack) it span over really quick and started immediately.