D <J@M> wrote:
>
> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
> universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
>
> set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>
>

Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
punctuate and make sentences?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article
<634404457.730228417.518144.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net>,
Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
> D <J@M> wrote:
> >
> > when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
> > universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
> > in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
> > in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
> >
> > set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
> > so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
> > in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
> > simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
> > and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
> >
> >

> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
> punctuate and make sentences?

Well, I got English Language at O-Level in 1955, so it was probably
sometime later.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 21/02/2024 17:45, charles wrote:

>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>> punctuate and make sentences?
>
> Well, I got English Language at O-Level in 1955, so it was probably
> sometime later.
>

My education was in the 60s and 70s. I've never had a clue about
grammar, but I passed an English Language O-Level. So presumably it went
to crap before my time.

On 21 Feb 2024 17:14:38 GMT
Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

> D <J@M> wrote:
> >
> > when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't
> > yet universally (*) purged retained articles containing
> > "googlegroups.com" in their path/message-id headers,
> > googlegroups.com articles may appear in the downloaded header list
> > unless your newsreader client is already
> > set to filter them out (reference headers may include
> > googlegroups.com so be sure to filter those as well); also, when
> > responding to articles in threads which may contain
> > googlegroups.com in the reference headers, simply delete the
> > googlegroups.com article reference from such replies and snip all
> > or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
> >
>
> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
> punctuate and make sentences?
>
>
Didn't e e cummings start the rot? A bit before my time.

--
Joe

On 21/02/2024 19:30, Joe wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2024 17:14:38 GMT
> Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
>
>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>
>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't
>>> yet universally (*) purged retained articles containing
>>> "googlegroups.com" in their path/message-id headers,
>>> googlegroups.com articles may appear in the downloaded header list
>>> unless your newsreader client is already
>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include
>>> googlegroups.com so be sure to filter those as well); also, when
>>> responding to articles in threads which may contain
>>> googlegroups.com in the reference headers, simply delete the
>>> googlegroups.com article reference from such replies and snip all
>>> or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>>
>>
>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>
>>
> Didn't e e cummings start the rot? A bit before my time.
>
He may have done, but its was Blair who made being an illiterate cunt
something to be proud of.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
> D <J@M> wrote:
>>
>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
>>
>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>
>>
>
> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
> punctuate and make sentences?

I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
that they are going out of fashion.

Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!

On 21/02/2024 17:54, Pancho wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 17:45, charles wrote:
>
>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>
>> Well, I got English Language at O-Level in 1955, so it was probably
>> sometime later.
>>
>
> My education was in the 60s and 70s. I've never had a clue about
> grammar, but I passed an English Language O-Level. So presumably it went
> to crap before my time.

Punctuation has always been a bit of a black art. :)

On Wednesday 21 February 2024 at 17:54:27 UTC, Pancho wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 17:45, charles wrote:
>
> >> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
> >> punctuate and make sentences?
> >
> > Well, I got English Language at O-Level in 1955, so it was probably
> > sometime later.
> >
> My education was in the 60s and 70s. I've never had a clue about
> grammar, but I passed an English Language O-Level. So presumably it went
> to crap before my time.

Check out Murray's English Grammar - he died in 1826. 'For the younger class of reader' it says, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone today that could answer a lot of its grammar questions. Or 50 years ago.

On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>
>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
>>>
>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>> punctuate and make sentences?
>
> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
> that they are going out of fashion.

Rather a lot of discussion here:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>

> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!

+, 1.

I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
available in red and blue and green and yellow"?

Anyone know if other languages use an "and" instead of or with the final
comma in a list? Or is the "and" not used at all?

--

Jeff

On 2/21/2024 12:14 PM, Tim+ wrote:
> D <J@M> wrote:
>>
>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
>>
>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>
>>
>
> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
> punctuate and make sentences?
>
> Tim
>

These are coming via Anonymous remailers and mail2news gateways. Handle accordingly!

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Ca27a927694be2e40b96c7d98bd474c63%40dizum.com%3E

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3C19d025883b4a53a806dc584e75bc0a1a%40dizum.com%3E

Try to use a News Client that displays the header, to help you identify
flora and fauna.

Paul

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>
>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>> that they are going out of fashion.
>
> Rather a lot of discussion here:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>
>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>
> +, 1.
>
> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?

Without an “and” to indicate the end of a list it leaves you hanging
waiting for the end. Using an “and” makes it clear. Even if this is just
because that’s what we’re accustomed to doing away with it would remove a
useful bit of information.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Paul wrote:

> Try to use a News Client that displays the header, to help you identify
> flora and fauna.

At least I understand that "Marco Moock" is trying to spread awareness
across various groups, it's less obvious what "D" is trying to achieve

In message
<179401444.730292948.856659.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.n
et>, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> writes
>Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>
>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>
>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>
>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>
>> +, 1.
>>
>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>
>Without an “and” to indicate the end of a list it leaves you hanging
>waiting for the end. Using an “and” makes it clear. Even if this is just
>because that’s what we’re accustomed to doing away with it would remove a
>useful bit of information.

My County grammar school tried hard to indoctrinate me in correct
grammar. I lasted 12 months in the Latin class before they decided I was
not going to Oxford or Cambridge:-)

I was an early reader and seem to have found unwritten rules without
actual understanding. The list final *and* seems important to me so I'll
carry on even if you decide to have it changed:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:58:51 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
>>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
>>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
>>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
>>>>
>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
>>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
>>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
>>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
>>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>
>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>> that they are going out of fashion.
>
>Rather a lot of discussion here:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>
>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>
>+, 1.
>
>I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>

That is my vague recollection; the comma becomes shorthand for "and"
with the last "and" terminating the list.

Maybe it became more useful in the days of early radio communication
or morse code.

Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma there seems to be an
increased use of unnecessary and random commas in many posts and
articles I come across.

eg:

Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
articles, I come across.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 22/02/2024 11:13, Tim+ wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>
>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>
>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>
>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>
>> +, 1.
>>
>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>
> Without an “and” to indicate the end of a list it leaves you hanging
> waiting for the end. Using an “and” makes it clear. Even if this is just
> because that’s what we’re accustomed to doing away with it would remove a
> useful bit of information.

I'll buy that. I guess that, just for confirmation, we would use "red,
blue, green, yellow, etc", with the "et" of "et cetera" being the Latin
for "and" - ("and the rest").

It seems that the Oxford Style Guide
(<https://www.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxford/media_wysiwyg/University%20of%20Oxford%20Style%20Guide.pdf>)
now states that the "Oxford comma" should not be used. See near bottom
of LH column on page 13 of the OSG.

--

Jeff

On 22 Feb 2024 at 12:39:06 GMT, "AnthonyL" <AnthonyL> wrote:

> eg:
>
> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
> an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
> articles, I come across.

I'd say you don't need the final one. As for those around "and random", that
is a weak form of parentheses. More or less equivalent to:

.... there seems to be an increased use of unnecessary (and random) commas in
many posts and articles ...

There also seems to be an increased use of unnecessary, and random,
apo'strophe's in many po'sts and article's I come acro's's.

Those folks need to learn that it's is short for "it is/has", and who's is
short for "who is/has", and that this is ALWAYS true.

--
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689

On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 20:05:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 21/02/2024 19:30, Joe wrote:
>> On 21 Feb 2024 17:14:38 GMT
>> Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
>>
>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't
>>>> yet universally (*) purged retained articles containing
>>>> "googlegroups.com" in their path/message-id headers,
>>>> googlegroups.com articles may appear in the downloaded header list
>>>> unless your newsreader client is already
>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include
>>>> googlegroups.com so be sure to filter those as well); also, when
>>>> responding to articles in threads which may contain
>>>> googlegroups.com in the reference headers, simply delete the
>>>> googlegroups.com article reference from such replies and snip all
>>>> or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>
>>>
>> Didn't e e cummings start the rot? A bit before my time.
>>
>He may have done, but its was Blair who made being an illiterate cunt
>something to be proud of.

Nah. I think that would be you.

In message <65d73e94.391618828@news.eternal-september.org>, AnthonyL
<nospam@please.invalid> writes
>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:58:51 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't yet
>>>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing "googlegroups.com"
>>>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may appear
>>>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is already
>>>>>
>>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include googlegroups.com
>>>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to articles
>>>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference headers,
>>>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such replies
>>>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to googlegroups.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>
>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>
>>Rather a lot of discussion here:
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>
>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>
>>+, 1.
>>
>>I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>
>
>That is my vague recollection; the comma becomes shorthand for "and"
>with the last "and" terminating the list.
>
>Maybe it became more useful in the days of early radio communication
>or morse code.
>
>Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma there seems to be an
>increased use of unnecessary and random commas in many posts and
>articles I come across.
>
>eg:
>
>Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
>an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
>articles, I come across.
Even I wouldn't put a comma before an and:-)

Surely you need a comma or even a full stop after the *Oxford comma*
bit.

--
Tim Lamb

On 22/02/2024 20:31, Tim Lamb wrote:

> Even I wouldn't put a comma before an and:-)
>

Well there are cases where you might be tempted to, in case of this,
that , or possibly even some other, contingency..

> Surely you need a comma or even a full stop after the *Oxford comma* bit.
>

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 22/02/2024 20:31, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <65d73e94.391618828@news.eternal-september.org>, AnthonyL
> <nospam@please.invalid> writes
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:58:51 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't
>>>>>> yet
>>>>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing
>>>>>> "googlegroups.com"
>>>>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may
>>>>>> appear
>>>>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is
>>>>>> already
>>>>>>
>>>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include
>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to
>>>>>> articles
>>>>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference
>>>>>> headers,
>>>>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such
>>>>>> replies
>>>>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to
>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>>
>>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>>
>>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>>
>>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>>
>>> +, 1.
>>>
>>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>>
>>
>> That is my vague recollection; the comma becomes shorthand for "and"
>> with the last "and" terminating the list.
>>
>> Maybe it became more useful in the days of early radio communication
>> or morse code.
>>
>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma there seems to be an
>> increased use of unnecessary and random commas in many posts and
>> articles I come across.
>>
>> eg:
>>
>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
>> an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
>> articles, I come across.
> Even I wouldn't put a comma before an and:-)

I'd use "Red, Orange and Yellow", but I'd also use "Red, Orange, Yellow
and Green, and Blue"

On 22/02/2024 20:31, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <65d73e94.391618828@news.eternal-september.org>, AnthonyL
> <nospam@please.invalid> writes
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:58:51 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't
>>>>>> yet
>>>>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing
>>>>>> "googlegroups.com"
>>>>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may
>>>>>> appear
>>>>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is
>>>>>> already
>>>>>>
>>>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include
>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to
>>>>>> articles
>>>>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference
>>>>>> headers,
>>>>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such
>>>>>> replies
>>>>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to
>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>>
>>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>>
>>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>>
>>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>>
>>> +, 1.
>>>
>>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>>
>>
>> That is my vague recollection; the comma becomes shorthand for "and"
>> with the last "and" terminating the list.
>>
>> Maybe it became more useful in the days of early radio communication
>> or morse code.
>>
>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma there seems to be an
>> increased use of unnecessary and random commas in many posts and
>> articles I come across.
>>
>> eg:
>>
>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
>> an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
>> articles, I come across.
> Even I wouldn't put a comma before an and:-)
>
> Surely you need a comma or even a full stop after the *Oxford comma* bit

I was taught by an English graduate that if you can remove the phrase
between the comms and the sentence still makes sense, then that is
acceptable. For example:
"increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts"
and
"increased use of unnecessary commas in many posts"

are both acceptable. The use of the comma in this case is for emphasis.

On 23/02/2024 13:49, Fredxx wrote:
> On 22/02/2024 20:31, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <65d73e94.391618828@news.eternal-september.org>, AnthonyL
>> <nospam@please.invalid> writes
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:58:51 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which
>>>>>>> haven't yet
>>>>>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing
>>>>>>> "googlegroups.com"
>>>>>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may
>>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include
>>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to
>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference
>>>>>>> headers,
>>>>>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such
>>>>>>> replies
>>>>>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to
>>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>>>
>>>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>>>
>>>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>>>
>>>> +, 1.
>>>>
>>>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is my vague recollection; the comma becomes shorthand for "and"
>>> with the last "and" terminating the list.
>>>
>>> Maybe it became more useful in the days of early radio communication
>>> or morse code.
>>>
>>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma there seems to be an
>>> increased use of unnecessary and random commas in many posts and
>>> articles I come across.
>>>
>>> eg:
>>>
>>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
>>> an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
>>> articles, I come across.
>> Even I wouldn't put a comma before an and:-)
>>
>> Surely you need a comma or even a full stop after the *Oxford comma* bit
>
> I was taught by an English graduate that if you can remove the phrase
> between the comms and the sentence still makes sense, then that is
> acceptable. For example:
>   "increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts"
> and
>   "increased use of unnecessary commas in many posts"
>
> are both acceptable. The use of the comma in this case is for emphasis.

Yes, I was taught the same. Also where someone would naturally pause for
breath.

On 22/02/2024 12:47, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 22/02/2024 11:13, Tim+ wrote:
>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>>
>>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>>
>>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>>
>>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>>
>>> +, 1.
>>>
>>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>
>> Without an “and” to indicate the end of a list it leaves you hanging
>> waiting for the end.  Using an “and” makes it clear.  Even if this is
>> just
>> because that’s what we’re accustomed to doing away with it would remove a
>> useful bit of information.
>
> I'll buy that. I guess that, just for confirmation, we would use "red,
> blue, green, yellow, etc",

Tsk, Tsk. What about EU harmonised colours ?.

That would be Brown, Grey, green, black surely ?

Am 23/02/2024 um 15:13 schrieb Andrew:
> On 22/02/2024 12:47, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 22/02/2024 11:13, Tim+ wrote:
>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>>>
>>>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>>>
>>>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>>>
>>>> +, 1.
>>>>
>>>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>>
>>> Without an “and” to indicate the end of a list it leaves you hanging
>>> waiting for the end.  Using an “and” makes it clear.  Even if this is
>>> just
>>> because that’s what we’re accustomed to doing away with it would
>>> remove a
>>> useful bit of information.
>>
>> I'll buy that. I guess that, just for confirmation, we would use "red,
>> blue, green, yellow, etc",
>
> Tsk, Tsk. What about EU harmonised colours ?.
>
> That would be Brown, Grey, green, black surely ?
>
>

No, that's the colours of Birmingham City councillors.

--
Ottavio Caruso

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> On 22/02/2024 20:31, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <65d73e94.391618828@news.eternal-september.org>, AnthonyL
>> <nospam@please.invalid> writes
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:58:51 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 21/02/2024 20:59, GB wrote:
>>>>> On 21/02/2024 17:14, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>> D <J@M> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> when downloading newsgroup headers from news servers which haven't
>>>>>>> yet
>>>>>>> universally (*) purged retained articles containing
>>>>>>> "googlegroups.com"
>>>>>>> in their path/message-id headers, googlegroups.com articles may
>>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>> in the downloaded header list unless your newsreader client is
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> set to filter them out (reference headers may include
>>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> so be sure to filter those as well); also, when responding to
>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>> in threads which may contain googlegroups.com in the reference
>>>>>>> headers,
>>>>>>> simply delete the googlegroups.com article reference from such
>>>>>>> replies
>>>>>>> and snip all or most of the quoted text attributed to
>>>>>>> googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone remember the days when people knew how to capitalise words,
>>>>>> punctuate and make sentences?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have put an Oxford Comma in there, before the 'and', but I gather
>>>>> that they are going out of fashion.
>>>>
>>>> Rather a lot of discussion here:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma>
>>>>
>>>>> Yippee, as, that, leaves, more, for, me!
>>>>
>>>> +, 1.
>>>>
>>>> I've always used it. Why do we use the "and" instead of (or with!) a
>>>> final comma? We could just use a list without the and: "Paint is
>>>> available in red, blue, green, yellow", rather than "Paint is available
>>>> in red, blue, green and yellow" (or "Paint is available in red, blue,
>>>> green, and yellow"). It looks and sounds odd because we are not used to
>>>> it. Did commas start being used to avoid multiple "ands" - "Paint is
>>>> available in red and blue and green and yellow"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is my vague recollection; the comma becomes shorthand for "and"
>>> with the last "and" terminating the list.
>>>
>>> Maybe it became more useful in the days of early radio communication
>>> or morse code.
>>>
>>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma there seems to be an
>>> increased use of unnecessary and random commas in many posts and
>>> articles I come across.
>>>
>>> eg:
>>>
>>> Apart from the decline of use in the Oxford Comma, there seems to be
>>> an increased use of unnecessary, and random, commas in many posts and
>>> articles, I come across.
>> Even I wouldn't put a comma before an and:-)
>
> I'd use "Red, Orange and Yellow", but I'd also use "Red, Orange, Yellow
> and Green, and Blue"

“Wiring comes in several colours: brown, blue, green, and yellow”

vs

“Wiring comes in several colours: brown, blue, green and yellow”.

--
Spike