The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
too dark to see at the bottom.

The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.

OK, time for a new TV.

After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
money'!

Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!

Sod's law!!

--
Chris

On 10/03/2024 12:34, Chris Hogg wrote:
> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
> too dark to see at the bottom.
>
> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>
> OK, time for a new TV.
>
> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
> money'!
>
> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>
> Sod's law!!
>

The new one will use only about half as much electricity per
1000 hours of viewing though.

On 10/03/2024 14:10, Andrew wrote:

> The new one will use only about half as much electricity per
> 1000 hours of viewing though.

Or even 1 hour of viewing

On 10/03/2024 12:34, Chris Hogg wrote:
> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
> too dark to see at the bottom.
>
> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>
> OK, time for a new TV.
>
> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
> money'!
>
> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>
> Sod's law!!
>
Yep.
When we replaced our old malfunctioning TV, it started to behave again.
It was relegated to the guest room.

On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
> too dark to see at the bottom.
>
> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>
> OK, time for a new TV.
>
> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
> money'!
>
> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>
> Sod's law!!
>

It's not Sod actually.

The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
relatively known behaviors.

When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.

The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.

CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the inside,
with metals.

You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
function, on one of the CCFL outputs.

Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
48W of output on your face while standing next to it.

Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.

Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
a direct emission solution. But the LCD panels might have
slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.

CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).

Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
(there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
But it will get dim as it ages.

Paul

On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:22:23 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

>On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
>> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
>> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
>> too dark to see at the bottom.
>>
>> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
>> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>>
>> OK, time for a new TV.
>>
>> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
>> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
>> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
>> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
>> money'!
>>
>> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>>
>> Sod's law!!
>>
>
>It's not Sod actually.
>
>The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
>relatively known behaviors.
>
>When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
>the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
>back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
>weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.
>
>The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.
>
>CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
>with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
>kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
>from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
>looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the inside,
>with metals.
>
>You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
>be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
>function, on one of the CCFL outputs.
>
>Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
>largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
>are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
>one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
>be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
>48W of output on your face while standing next to it.
>
>Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
>There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
>element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
>CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.
>
>Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
>nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
>concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
>a direct emission solution. But the LCD panels might have
>slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.
>
>CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
>one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
>and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).
>
>Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
>(there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
>But it will get dim as it ages.
>
> Paul

Many thanks for that, some of which I almost understood. The TV giving
the problem is a Samsung LED model, UE42F5000AKXXU. As you predicted,
the fault has returned, so money spent on a new TV isn't wasted. OOI,
it's a "PANASONIC TX-42MZ800B 42" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR OLED TV with
Google Assistant".

--
Chris

On 12-Mar-24 9:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:22:23 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
>>> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
>>> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
>>> too dark to see at the bottom.
>>>
>>> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
>>> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>>>
>>> OK, time for a new TV.
>>>
>>> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
>>> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
>>> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
>>> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
>>> money'!
>>>
>>> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>>>
>>> Sod's law!!
>>>
>>
>> It's not Sod actually.
>>
>> The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
>> relatively known behaviors.
>>
>> When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
>> the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
>> back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
>> weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.
>>
>> The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.
>>
>> CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
>> with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
>> kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
>>from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
>> looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the inside,
>> with metals.
>>
>> You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
>> be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
>> function, on one of the CCFL outputs.
>>
>> Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
>> largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
>> are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
>> one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
>> be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
>> 48W of output on your face while standing next to it.
>>
>> Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
>> There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
>> element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
>> CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.
>>
>> Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
>> nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
>> concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
>> a direct emission solution. But the LCD panels might have
>> slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.
>>
>> CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
>> one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
>> and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).
>>
>> Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
>> (there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
>> But it will get dim as it ages.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Many thanks for that, some of which I almost understood. The TV giving
> the problem is a Samsung LED model, UE42F5000AKXXU. As you predicted,
> the fault has returned, so money spent on a new TV isn't wasted. OOI,
> it's a "PANASONIC TX-42MZ800B 42" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR OLED TV with
> Google Assistant".
>
42 inch TV...
Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
larger.
Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?

--
Sam Plusnet

On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>42 inch TV...
>Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>larger.
>Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?

The one I got was slightly smaller than the one it replaced, but an
awful lot of those on offer were bigger, and some were a lot bigger.
Only a few were smaller!

--
Chris

On 15/03/2024 19:03, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 12-Mar-24 9:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:22:23 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
>>>> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
>>>> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
>>>> too dark to see at the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
>>>> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>>>>
>>>> OK, time for a new TV.
>>>>
>>>> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
>>>> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
>>>> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
>>>> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
>>>> money'!
>>>>
>>>> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>>>>
>>>> Sod's law!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not Sod actually.
>>>
>>> The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
>>> relatively known behaviors.
>>>
>>> When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
>>> the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
>>> back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
>>> weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.
>>>
>>> The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.
>>>
>>> CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
>>> with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
>>> kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
>>> from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
>>> looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the inside,
>>> with metals.
>>>
>>> You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
>>> be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
>>> function, on one of the CCFL outputs.
>>>
>>> Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
>>> largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
>>> are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
>>> one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
>>> be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
>>> 48W of output on your face while standing next to it.
>>>
>>> Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
>>> There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
>>> element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
>>> CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.
>>>
>>> Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
>>> nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
>>> concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
>>> a direct emission solution.  But the LCD panels might have
>>> slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.
>>>
>>> CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
>>> one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
>>> and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).
>>>
>>> Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
>>> (there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
>>> But it will get dim as it ages.
>>>
>>>    Paul
>>
>> Many thanks for that, some of which I almost understood. The TV giving
>> the problem is a Samsung LED model, UE42F5000AKXXU. As you predicted,
>> the fault has returned, so money spent on a new TV isn't wasted. OOI,
>> it's a "PANASONIC TX-42MZ800B 42" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR OLED TV with
>> Google Assistant".
>>
> 42 inch TV...
> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting larger.
> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?
>
When the TV is larger than the wall it's on.
--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 15/03/2024 19:03, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 12-Mar-24 9:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:22:23 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
>>>> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
>>>> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
>>>> too dark to see at the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
>>>> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>>>>
>>>> OK, time for a new TV.
>>>>
>>>> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
>>>> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
>>>> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
>>>> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
>>>> money'!
>>>>
>>>> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>>>>
>>>> Sod's law!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not Sod actually.
>>>
>>> The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
>>> relatively known behaviors.
>>>
>>> When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
>>> the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
>>> back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
>>> weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.
>>>
>>> The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.
>>>
>>> CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
>>> with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
>>> kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
>>> from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
>>> looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the inside,
>>> with metals.
>>>
>>> You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
>>> be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
>>> function, on one of the CCFL outputs.
>>>
>>> Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
>>> largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
>>> are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
>>> one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
>>> be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
>>> 48W of output on your face while standing next to it.
>>>
>>> Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
>>> There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
>>> element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
>>> CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.
>>>
>>> Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
>>> nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
>>> concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
>>> a direct emission solution.  But the LCD panels might have
>>> slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.
>>>
>>> CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
>>> one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
>>> and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).
>>>
>>> Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
>>> (there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
>>> But it will get dim as it ages.
>>>
>>>    Paul
>>
>> Many thanks for that, some of which I almost understood. The TV giving
>> the problem is a Samsung LED model, UE42F5000AKXXU. As you predicted,
>> the fault has returned, so money spent on a new TV isn't wasted. OOI,
>> it's a "PANASONIC TX-42MZ800B 42" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR OLED TV with
>> Google Assistant".
>>
> 42 inch TV...
> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting larger.
> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?

I suppose they could increase to the biggest size that can get through a
doorway and treat it like a cinema room.

On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 10:48:29 +1100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:

> On 15/03/2024 19:03, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 12-Mar-24 9:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:22:23 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
>>>>> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
>>>>> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was
>>>>> almost
>>>>> too dark to see at the bottom.
>>>>>
>>>>> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
>>>>> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, time for a new TV.
>>>>>
>>>>> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
>>>>> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
>>>>> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
>>>>> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
>>>>> money'!
>>>>>
>>>>> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sod's law!!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not Sod actually.
>>>>
>>>> The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
>>>> relatively known behaviors.
>>>>
>>>> When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
>>>> the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
>>>> back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
>>>> weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.
>>>>
>>>> The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.
>>>>
>>>> CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
>>>> with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
>>>> kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
>>>> from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
>>>> looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the
>>>> inside,
>>>> with metals.
>>>>
>>>> You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
>>>> be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
>>>> function, on one of the CCFL outputs.
>>>>
>>>> Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
>>>> largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
>>>> are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
>>>> one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
>>>> be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
>>>> 48W of output on your face while standing next to it.
>>>>
>>>> Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
>>>> There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
>>>> element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
>>>> CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
>>>> nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
>>>> concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
>>>> a direct emission solution. But the LCD panels might have
>>>> slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.
>>>>
>>>> CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
>>>> one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
>>>> and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).
>>>>
>>>> Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
>>>> (there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
>>>> But it will get dim as it ages.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Many thanks for that, some of which I almost understood. The TV giving
>>> the problem is a Samsung LED model, UE42F5000AKXXU. As you predicted,
>>> the fault has returned, so money spent on a new TV isn't wasted. OOI,
>>> it's a "PANASONIC TX-42MZ800B 42" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR OLED TV with
>>> Google Assistant".
>>>
>> 42 inch TV...
>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>> larger.
>> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?
>
> I suppose they could increase to the biggest size that can get through a
> doorway and treat it like a cinema room.

But that isnt really viable except for little kids, sitting so close to
such a large screen

On 15/03/2024 07:03 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 12-Mar-24 9:04, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Mar 2024 23:22:23 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/10/2024 8:34 AM, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>> The brightness of my TV started playing up last week. Top half of the
>>>> screen was as normal, but in the bottom half the brightness gradually
>>>> dropped off going further down the screen until the picture was almost
>>>> too dark to see at the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> The TV must be at least ten years old, inherited from my mother when
>>>> she died, so it didn't cost me anything and it owes me nothing.
>>>>
>>>> OK, time for a new TV.
>>>>
>>>> After much researching various screen sizes and connections at the
>>>> back for my rather elderly other stuff like DVD player, sound system
>>>> and PVR, I made my choice and ordered a new one. A bit more expensive
>>>> than I originally intended, but as my late wife would say 'it's only
>>>> money'!
>>>>
>>>> Since ordering the replacement, the old TV has behaved perfectly!
>>>>
>>>> Sod's law!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not Sod actually.
>>>
>>> The behavior of CCFL backlights and inverters, has some
>>> relatively known behaviors.
>>>
>>> When a CCFL backlight goes black, sometimes you can turn down
>>> the brightness setting on the device, and the light will come
>>> back on. The device will then work for roughly another three
>>> weeks, before the CCFL tube will go black for the last time.
>>>
>>> The "perfect behavior" you see now, won't last.
>>>
>>> CCFL tubes have no filaments. They're basically gas tubes
>>> with electrodes. At around 20,000 hours, the electrodes have
>>> kinda sputtered off onto the glass of the CCFL tube. The light
>>> from the CCFL tube turns "brown" as it ages. If the entire display
>>> looks brown to you, that's the backlight tubes sputtered on the inside,
>>> with metals.
>>>
>>> You may think the old set has deceived you, but it should not
>>> be too long before the old set has a more permanent lack of
>>> function, on one of the CCFL outputs.
>>>
>>> Small panels can be lit with as few as one CCFL tube. The
>>> largest panels made with CCFL, could use 16 CCFL tubes. These
>>> are driven with separate inverters (there is not generally
>>> one inverter driving the whole lot of them). The power can
>>> be roughly 3W per tube, so a 16 tube set, you can feel
>>> 48W of output on your face while standing next to it.
>>>
>>> Modern LCD panels use LED backlights, and they can be edge lit.
>>> There is a plastic sheet that distributes light from an edge
>>> element full of LEDs. And that's the replacement for the older
>>> CCFL way of lighting up an LCD panel.
>>>
>>> Of course, more expensive TVs today, use OLEDs, quantum dots,
>>> nano LEDs and other junk. Where it might no longer be the
>>> concept of "backlighting" as with LCD panels. Those are more of
>>> a direct emission solution.  But the LCD panels might have
>>> slightly less issues with pattern burn-in.
>>>
>>> CCFL tubes as a lighting solution, last as short a time as
>>> one year for the worst of them (could be inverter failure),
>>> and up to 20 years for a good design (CCFL turns brown).
>>>
>>> Will a LED backlight last that long ? It won't turn brown
>>> (there is no sputtering of metals inside a LED).
>>> But it will get dim as it ages.
>>>
>>>    Paul
>>
>> Many thanks for that, some of which I almost understood. The TV giving
>> the problem is a Samsung LED model, UE42F5000AKXXU. As you predicted,
>> the fault has returned, so money spent on a new TV isn't wasted. OOI,
>> it's a "PANASONIC TX-42MZ800B 42" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR OLED TV with
>> Google Assistant".
>>
> 42 inch TV...
> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting larger.
> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?

Smaller TV sizes are available for smaller rooms in (many) modern houses.

But what about the houses that already exist?

On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> 42 inch TV...
>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>> larger.

Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
cannot get smaller ones.

>> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?
>
> The one I got was slightly smaller than the one it replaced, but an
> awful lot of those on offer were bigger, and some were a lot bigger.
> Only a few were smaller!

What we found when we swapped from widescreen CRT to wide/flat screen
was that the set had to be placed further back from the viewer - an
effect which was more pronounced when the TV was located in a corner at
an angle. Space behind the screen was saved in spadefuls, but the same
screen size would now look smaller to the viewer, hence the upgrade from
(say) 30" across the diagonal to 40" or larger.

On 17/03/2024 14:40, JNugent wrote:
> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 42 inch TV...
>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>> larger.
>
> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
> cannot get smaller ones.
>
>>> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?
>>
>> The one I got was slightly smaller than the one it replaced, but an
>> awful lot of those on offer were bigger, and some were a lot bigger.
>> Only a few were smaller!
>
> What we found when we swapped from widescreen CRT to wide/flat screen
> was that the set had to be placed further back from the viewer - an
> effect which was more pronounced when the TV was located in a corner at
> an angle. Space behind the screen was saved in spadefuls, but the same
> screen size would now look smaller to the viewer, hence the upgrade from
> (say) 30" across the diagonal to 40" or larger.

Albeit a few years back I had the problem persuading my mother to go for
a 40+ inch flat screen. She didn't want anything that large in the
space. It wasn't a problem with viewing distance or pixel size etc. - it
was that flat screen would be physically larger that the widescreen 21
inch crt TV she already had.
While the visible screen may have been 21 inch the rest of the tube was
hidden with a 2+ inch surround. The manual controls were at the bottom
of the cabinet adding another 1 inch to the height. The forward facing
speakers were each side of the screen adding another 4 inches to the width.
In the end I cut out a piece of cardboard to the size of a 42 inch flat
panel TV and placed that in front of the old TV. The cardboard was
smaller than the existing TV.
A CRT TV had a large front to back dimension and as a result had to be
slotted into the corner of the room. In my mother's case the corner
wasn't the idea place for the TV and with the purchase of a flat panel
TV the room was slightly re-arranged and removal of the large, and
heavy, crt a lot of useful space was gained.

In my own case my first flat panel TV was 40 inch with quite a wide
surround. My current TV is 5 inch with a very thin surround. I didn't
lose any usable space when I swapped between 40 and 55 inches.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 42 inch TV...
>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>> larger.
>
> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
> cannot get smaller ones.

Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger and
larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 17 Mar 2024 at 15:46:45 GMT, "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 17/03/2024 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>> larger.
>>
>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>> cannot get smaller ones.
>>
>>>> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?
>>>
>>> The one I got was slightly smaller than the one it replaced, but an
>>> awful lot of those on offer were bigger, and some were a lot bigger.
>>> Only a few were smaller!
>>
>> What we found when we swapped from widescreen CRT to wide/flat screen
>> was that the set had to be placed further back from the viewer - an
>> effect which was more pronounced when the TV was located in a corner at
>> an angle. Space behind the screen was saved in spadefuls, but the same
>> screen size would now look smaller to the viewer, hence the upgrade from
>> (say) 30" across the diagonal to 40" or larger.
>
> Albeit a few years back I had the problem persuading my mother to go for
> a 40+ inch flat screen. She didn't want anything that large in the
> space. It wasn't a problem with viewing distance or pixel size etc. - it
> was that flat screen would be physically larger that the widescreen 21
> inch crt TV she already had.
> While the visible screen may have been 21 inch the rest of the tube was
> hidden with a 2+ inch surround. The manual controls were at the bottom
> of the cabinet adding another 1 inch to the height. The forward facing
> speakers were each side of the screen adding another 4 inches to the width.
> In the end I cut out a piece of cardboard to the size of a 42 inch flat
> panel TV and placed that in front of the old TV. The cardboard was
> smaller than the existing TV.
> A CRT TV had a large front to back dimension and as a result had to be
> slotted into the corner of the room. In my mother's case the corner
> wasn't the idea place for the TV and with the purchase of a flat panel
> TV the room was slightly re-arranged and removal of the large, and
> heavy, crt a lot of useful space was gained.

What did your Mum think once the new telly was in place?

--
"What causes poverty?" Wrong question. Poverty is our primordial state. The real question is, "What causes wealth?"

Hint: it ain't Socialism.

On 17/03/2024 19:46, Tim Streater wrote:

>
> What did your Mum think once the new telly was in place?
>

No problems what so ever and with the comment that it was much clearer
than the old CRT TV. This was in the early stages of sight loss. The
other problem was that she really hadn't had any experience of flat
panel TVs and she was thinking along the lines that a 21 inch CRT was
bulky enough for the room and a 40+ inch would take up twice the space.
In reality the 42 inch flat screen was much smaller.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 17 Mar 2024 at 19:59:08 GMT, "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 17/03/2024 19:46, Tim Streater wrote:
>
>> What did your Mum think once the new telly was in place?
>
> No problems what so ever and with the comment that it was much clearer
> than the old CRT TV. This was in the early stages of sight loss. The
> other problem was that she really hadn't had any experience of flat
> panel TVs and she was thinking along the lines that a 21 inch CRT was
> bulky enough for the room and a 40+ inch would take up twice the space.
> In reality the 42 inch flat screen was much smaller.

Good and a clever move with the cardboard. If the sight loss is cataracts then
getting them done ASAP is best.

--
HAL 9000: Dave. Put down those Windows disks. Dave. DAVE!

On 17/03/2024 06:29 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>> larger.
>
>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>> cannot get smaller ones.
>
> Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
> However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger and
> larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.

The consumer chooses...

On 18-Mar-24 16:04, JNugent wrote:
> On 17/03/2024 06:29 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>>> larger.
>>
>>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>>> cannot get smaller ones.
>>
>> Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
>> However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger
>> and larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.
>
> The consumer chooses...

Certainly, and the manufacturers don't spend the massive sums to develop
larger TVs unless they are confident there is a market.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 18/03/2024 07:33 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 18-Mar-24 16:04, JNugent wrote:
>> On 17/03/2024 06:29 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>>>> larger.
>>>
>>>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>>>> cannot get smaller ones.
>>>
>>> Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
>>> However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger
>>> and larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.
>>
>> The consumer chooses...
>
> Certainly, and the manufacturers don't spend the massive sums to develop
> larger TVs unless they are confident there is a market.

All sizes of screen have a place in the market.

The first Sony Bravia I bought had (and still has) a 26" screen, which
sounded big enough to me until I had to slide the set back into the
corner in order to avoid wasted space where a CRT used to protrude.

After a few months, I got a 40" unit for the living room, while the 26"
screen was plenty big enough for the bedroom. I have considered buying a
smaller unit again (prob s/h) to use for video editing.

On 18/03/2024 16:04, JNugent wrote:
> On 17/03/2024 06:29 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>>> larger.
>>
>>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>>> cannot get smaller ones.
>>
>> Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
>> However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger
>> and larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.
>
> The consumer chooses...

I watch telly on a 14" laptop, in bed.

When I watch it at all...which is increasingly rarely. I've seen all the
good old repeats, and all the new stuff is woke documentaries or woke
'soshul' drama. Or woke propaganda disguised as news.

Better stuff on you tube...
--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 18/03/2024 19:33, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 18-Mar-24 16:04, JNugent wrote:
>> On 17/03/2024 06:29 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>>>> larger.
>>>
>>>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>>>> cannot get smaller ones.
>>>
>>> Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
>>> However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger
>>> and larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.
>>
>> The consumer chooses...
>
> Certainly, and the manufacturers don't spend the massive sums to develop
> larger TVs unless they are confident there is a market.
>
Well the only massive bit is the LCD screen. Most of the electronics
would fit into a fag packet these days

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

snip for brevity

> >
> 42 inch TV...
> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
> larger.
> Where is the tipping point when TV size increases must end?
>

Years ago, when I lived in Michigan, USA, we moved into a house on an
estate built in 1947. We had a 19" TV set, the house behind us, distant
by the length of two gardens, was occupied by a bunch of student
doctors. We could stand in our hallway, looking at our TV, tuned to the
same channel as the doctors' (always some sports channel), and the
image on their set was actually larger to our eyes than the one on our
set.

--
Davey.

In message <uta8c4$btrn$4@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>On 18/03/2024 16:04, JNugent wrote:
>> On 17/03/2024 06:29 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> On 17-Mar-24 14:40, JNugent wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2024 08:18 pm, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:03:22 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> 42 inch TV...
>>>>>> Modern houses seem to have smaller rooms, yet TVs are still getting
>>>>>> larger.
>>>
>>>> Not really. You can buy larger TVs, but that doesn't mean that you
>>>>cannot get smaller ones.
>>>
>>> Smaller TVs are indeed available - for those who want them.
>>> However the steady increase says there is a ready market for larger
>>>and larger TVs, whilst room sizes stay the same or are shrinking.
>> The consumer chooses...
>
>I watch telly on a 14" laptop, in bed.
>
>When I watch it at all...which is increasingly rarely. I've seen all
>the good old repeats, and all the new stuff is woke documentaries or
>woke 'soshul' drama. Or woke propaganda disguised as news.

An unexpected feature of advanced years is an ability to enjoy
re-watching/reading films or books already encountered.

Perhaps I'm a boring old fart after all.
>
>Better stuff on you tube...

Very handy for the *how to* stuff but otherwise I stay away from social
media.

--
Tim Lamb