On 03/04/2024 10:09, wasbit wrote:
> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>> snip <
>>
>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual actions
>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input and
>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>> or your smartphone into the water. Are car electronic systems
>> sufficiently water resistant to avoid this?
>>
>
> There were competitions to see what liquids could be used to submerge a
> working desktop PC, IIRC, starting with distilled water then various oils.
>

Eg. https://www.pugetsystems.com/mineral-oil-pc/

--
Regards
wasbit

On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
> Are car electronic systems
> sufficiently water resistant to avoid this?

The answer is mostly 'yes, for a short while'

Nearly all computer modules are sealed. Underbonnet can get serious
splashes (remember the dreaded Mini distributor) ...but no seal will
take pressure for very long.

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>> ...
>>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual actions
>>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input and
>>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>>> or your smartphone into the water.
>>
>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated for
>> immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>
> How do the sockets cope with this?
>

Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
probably mike and speaker?

nib

On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual actions
>>>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>>>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>>>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>>>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>>>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input and
>>>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>>>> or your smartphone into the water.
>>>
>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated for
>>> immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>
>> How do the sockets cope with this?

> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
> probably mike and speaker?

How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?

Microphones and speakers can transmit the vibrations through membranes.

--
Max Demian

On 03/04/2024 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>> ...
>>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual actions
>>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input and
>>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>>> or your smartphone into the water.
>>
>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated for
>> immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>
> How do the sockets cope with this?
>

I am simply taking that from the manufacturer's specs, which says it is
rated IP67. That does allow limited water ingress, but with no harmful
effects. Presumably, that means that any water that gets into the
sockets won't damage anything.

The case I put it, however, has flexible covers over all sockets and is
supposed to be waterproof to 10 metres. I bought it for the extra impact
protection though. Phones have a habit of falling out of my shirt breast
pocket.

--
Colin Bignell

On 03/04/2024 17:32, Max Demian wrote:
> On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
>> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual actions
>>>>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>>>>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>>>>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>>>>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>>>>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input and
>>>>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>>>>> or your smartphone into the water.
>>>>
>>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated
>>>> for immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>>
>>> How do the sockets cope with this?
>
>> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
>> probably mike and speaker?
>
> How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?
>
By slumping hot glue all over the wires inside it

> Microphones and speakers can transmit the vibrations through membranes.
>

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 03:32:19 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

> On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
>> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual
>>>>> actions
>>>>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>>>>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>>>>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>>>>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>>>>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input
>>>>> and
>>>>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>>>>> or your smartphone into the water.
>>>>
>>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated for
>>>> immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>>
>>> How do the sockets cope with this?
>
>> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
>> probably mike and speaker?

> How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?

The back of the socket inside the phone is trivial to make
waterproof, with the contacts exposed to the outside in the hole.

> Microphones and speakers can transmit the vibrations through membranes.

And can be designed to not care about water.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2024 20:30:51 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 02/04/2024 22:05, Nick Odell wrote:
>> ...
>>> The main differences I'm thinking of - apart from fully manual actions
>>> for everything - are that in Ye Olde Dayes, electrical systems were
>>> operated by manual switch, relay or solenoid and the like and we have
>>> already established that 12v systems seem capable of working when
>>> submerged in fresh water. But modern car electrics are operated
>>> through touchscreens and sensors and other on-board-computer input and
>>> output devices and we all know what happens if you drop your computer
>>> or your smartphone into the water.
>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated for
>> immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>
> How do the sockets cope with this?

There is only one socket on most current phone, just the
charging socket and its easy to make that waterproof.

In article <uugppr$3602m$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
>On 01/04/2024 18:46, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <uue0ab$cn6g$5@dont-email.me>, Jethro_uk
>> <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> scribeth thus
>>> That's all very well. However when Mythbusters played around with ways to
>>> escape a submerged car, the biggest problem was the disorientation of
>>> [Adam Savage] going in. And as they pointed out he was expecting it and
>>> prepared.
>>>
>>> IIRC there are also some CoG factors that will try to upend a car going
>>> into the water - certainly an ICE with a heavy engine and gearbox at the
>>> front.
>>
>> Begs the question what about an electric car?
>>
>> Or has no one done that yet?..
>>
>> On an ordinary car, wouldn't you be able to wind the windows down?
>>
>> I mean 12 volts and it'd take a while before the water got anywhere that
>> sensitive surely?..
>
>electricals are fine, but electronics are not.
>
>it depends whether or not the switches go straight to the door motors,
>or have some electronic interface.
>

Has anyone dun any research with the vehicles at Rufford Ford or is
that closed now?...

--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 03/04/2024 19:04, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 03:32:19 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>> On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>>>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:

>>>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated
>>>>> for immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>>>
>>>> How do the sockets cope with this?
>>
>>> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
>>> probably mike and speaker?
>
>> How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?
>
> The back of the socket inside the phone is trivial to make
> waterproof, with the contacts exposed to the outside in the hole.

What if you plug a charger lead in when the hole is still wet?

--
Max Demian

On 4 Apr 2024 at 10:41:23 BST, "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> On 03/04/2024 19:04, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 03:32:19 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>>>>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated
>>>>>> for immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do the sockets cope with this?
>>>
>>>> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
>>>> probably mike and speaker?
>>
>>> How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?
>>
>> The back of the socket inside the phone is trivial to make
>> waterproof, with the contacts exposed to the outside in the hole.
>
> What if you plug a charger lead in when the hole is still wet?

Provided that the socket is properly sealed and the fluid is not paticularly
conductive, I'd expect it to charge the device.

--
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web, when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another computer, another word processor, or another network.

-- Tim Berners-Lee

On 04/04/2024 10:41, Max Demian wrote:
> On 03/04/2024 19:04, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 03:32:19 +1100, Max Demian
>> <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>>>>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated
>>>>>> for immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do the sockets cope with this?
>>>
>>>> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
>>>> probably mike and speaker?
>>
>>> How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?
>>
>> The back of the socket inside the phone is trivial to make
>> waterproof, with the contacts exposed to the outside in the hole.
>
> What if you plug a charger lead in when the hole is still wet?
>
No big deal unless its very salt water. Most electronics will work after
a soaking from fresh water.

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 01/04/2024 18:46, tony sayer wrote:
> > In article <uue0ab$cn6g$5@dont-email.me>, Jethro_uk
> > <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> scribeth thus
> >> That's all very well. However when Mythbusters played around with ways to
> >> escape a submerged car, the biggest problem was the disorientation of
> >> [Adam Savage] going in. And as they pointed out he was expecting it and
> >> prepared.
> >>
> >> IIRC there are also some CoG factors that will try to upend a car going
> >> into the water - certainly an ICE with a heavy engine and gearbox at the
> >> front.
> >
> > Begs the question what about an electric car?
> >
> > Or has no one done that yet?..
> >
> > On an ordinary car, wouldn't you be able to wind the windows down?
> >
> > I mean 12 volts and it'd take a while before the water got anywhere that
> > sensitive surely?..
>
> electricals are fine, but electronics are not.
>
> it depends whether or not the switches go straight to the door motors,
> or have some electronic interface.

Also depends whether the airbags deploy. If so, the airbag ECU can blow a
pyro fuse on the 12V battery to disconnect the electrical system in the
event of an impact. eg if you went through the crash barrier into water the
airbags could blow the pyro when you hit the barrier so the car is
de-powered when it hits the water.

As well as EVs and hybrids (which use pyros to de-power the HV system), a
number of ICE cars have pyros now - eg Audis and BMWs.

It's a bit surprising cars don't have easily-accessible escape hammers like
they do with buses and trains - eg under the seat.

Theo

Theo wrote:

> As well as EVs and hybrids (which use pyros to de-power the HV system), a
> number of ICE cars have pyros now - eg Audis and BMWs.

But from repair videos I've seen, on ICE cars the pyro fuse tends to
isolate the starter motor, rather than everything ...

On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 20:41:23 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

> On 03/04/2024 19:04, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Apr 2024 03:32:19 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 03/04/2024 13:19, nib wrote:
>>>> On 2024-04-03 10:30, Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> On 02/04/2024 23:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>>>>>> Even without the protective case I fitted, my smartphone is rated
>>>>>> for immersion to a depth of one metre for up to 30 minutes.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do the sockets cope with this?
>>>
>>>> Sockets are probably not the problem, they can be sealed. Hardest is
>>>> probably mike and speaker?
>>
>>> How do you seal a socket unless it has a rubber plug you can remove?
>> The back of the socket inside the phone is trivial to make
>> waterproof, with the contacts exposed to the outside in the hole.
>
> What if you plug a charger lead in when the hole is still wet?

No big deal given the voltage involved.

On 04/04/2024 16:06, Andy Burns wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
>> As well as EVs and hybrids (which use pyros to de-power the HV system), a
>> number of ICE cars have pyros now - eg Audis and BMWs.
>
> But from repair videos I've seen, on ICE cars the pyro fuse tends to
> isolate the starter motor, rather than everything ...
>
And fresh water and 12V wont blow any fuses, anyway

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

Theo wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 01/04/2024 18:46, tony sayer wrote:
>> > In article <uue0ab$cn6g$5@dont-email.me>, Jethro_uk
>> > <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> scribeth thus
>> >> That's all very well. However when Mythbusters played around with ways to
>> >> escape a submerged car, the biggest problem was the disorientation of
>> >> [Adam Savage] going in. And as they pointed out he was expecting it and
>> >> prepared.
>> >>
>> >> IIRC there are also some CoG factors that will try to upend a car going
>> >> into the water - certainly an ICE with a heavy engine and gearbox at the
>> >> front.
>> >
>> > Begs the question what about an electric car?
>> >
>> > Or has no one done that yet?..
>> >
>> > On an ordinary car, wouldn't you be able to wind the windows down?
>> >
>> > I mean 12 volts and it'd take a while before the water got anywhere that
>> > sensitive surely?..
>>
>> electricals are fine, but electronics are not.
>>
>> it depends whether or not the switches go straight to the door motors,
>> or have some electronic interface.

> Also depends whether the airbags deploy. If so, the airbag ECU can blow a
> pyro fuse on the 12V battery to disconnect the electrical system in the
> event of an impact. eg if you went through the crash barrier into water the
> airbags could blow the pyro when you hit the barrier so the car is
> de-powered when it hits the water.

> As well as EVs and hybrids (which use pyros to de-power the HV system), a
> number of ICE cars have pyros now - eg Audis and BMWs.

> It's a bit surprising cars don't have easily-accessible escape hammers like
> they do with buses and trains - eg under the seat.

A few years back I gave the family "Under-the-tree" Christmas presents - you
know, the little extra presents that are not the main one - of an escape
hammer/USB charge socket combination. The idea is that it's always available
because it's plugged into the 12v accessory socket formerly known as the
cigar lighter socket. It's not a long hammery-shaped thing but a
hold-in-the-palm-of-your-hand heavy mass with a glass-breaking point on the
end. None of them have been tested in real life, I'm pleased to say.

Nick