On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 04:34:10 +1100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 4/5/2024 3:26 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Why did you completely ignore the post which you responded to?
>> Cognitive dissonance?
>>
>
> Look at the graph, spot the patterns.
>
> There aren't really a lot of differences between BEV and ICE/PHEV.
> You can waste money on expensive ones if you want. Bloodbath.
>
> The cars "last ten years", in the sense that maintenance is low
> for at least the first ten years. BEV cars that were poorly designed
> and sit dead-in-the-drive today, will be the subject of a class action,
> the class action may decide what the penalty for failing to support
> a warranty will be. (Battery pack is supposed to be replaced
> under warranty, company "does not want to".) These were
> cars without active cooling of the battery pack.
>
> The battery pack presents a problem for either trade-in value
> at the ten year mark, or the "street price" if you try to sell
> it privately. Buyer and seller don't know what the battery
> pack holds in the future, for the used-buyer.

> On an ICE, between 10 years and 20 years tow-to-junkyard,
> you can spend as much on repairs, as the original purchase
> price of the car.

Only if you are very unlucky or very stupid.

> Automatic transmissions always need to be replaced

Bullshit.

> (manuals, not so much).

Not at all in fact.

> The PHEV should have more repairs just becauseof the additional amount
> of components.

Mindlessly simplistic.

> Could a BEV last past 20 years, for the basic platform ?
> This seems unlikely when an engineer can run a finger
> across a table, and select components that will be
> mushy at the 20 year mark. Consumer automobiles will never
> be constructed with the same care as public transit buses
> (aluminium upper, steel lower). Virtually every transit
> bus has rotting suspension. But on the uppers, you can have rust
> free viewing out the window of a bus.
>
> The BEV then, the owners collectively might have to pay for
> one or two battery packs, before the car-lowers are rusted out.
>
> If you use the above graph, and select a bargain vehicle
> with a seemingly unusually long range, your next step
> would be determining whether the range rating is "real" or not.
> Your battery pack conservation strategy, your penalty for
> cold weather come out of that excess of range. And that
> determines whether a reasonably priced BEV could
> ever function as a city car at least.
>
> The after-market parts industry, is lacking for BEV. It's not mature.
> With after-market, we could have competition on battery pack
> replacement price. This could make quite a difference to the
> current lumpy behavior financially at trade-in time. The buyer
> still has to "time" the battery replacement, because replacement
> packs will not be available in year 19.
>
> Our future hinges on the construction of battery plants.
> So that CATL does not corner the market.
>
> The truck example I found, shows how you can have fast charging.
> And range (vehicle has multiple tray-mounted packs). That does
> not mean it's affordable to *buy* packs to fill the vehicle.
> But it might mean you could *rent* packs for a long trip.
> You could drive a vehicle like that around the city with
> only one pack in the tray thing.
>
> It's early times for BEV, and still room for improvement
> and maturing. Would you ever expect first generation technology
> to be a winner from the get-go ? I wouldn't. You'll remember
> a time when an ICE car, wouldn't idle properly. On really early
> cars, there was no synchromesh when you shifted. On a modern
> ICE, when was the last time you worried about idle behavior ?
> They fixed it. It took decades. But they fixed it across
> the fleet. No more manual choke knobs. They fixed windshield
> wipers. It took decades. But they fixed it. You can drive
> a car 20 years, without replacing a wiper motor. It doesn't
> even rust where the wiper motor fastens to the car. Can you
> drive an ICE for 20 years without three alternators. NO!
> Still not fixed.
>
> The vulture capitalism around BEVs right now, is the
> single biggest impediment. The automotive companies
> are not on a mission to cure cancer. They just want
> the money thanks. Competition is what will pistol whip
> these idiots back into their seats. The Chinese are coming.
> Then we'll see if they really have engineering talent or not
> (to compete with the Chinese).
>
> Will the Chinese arrive, before the cutoff date for all-BEV sales ?
> That's a political decision. I bet the Chinese car companies
> will be ready for that date. They'll have the product.
> And not with a ten year loan to pay for it.
>
> But as it currently stands, with a lot of gaming going on,
> I don't expect anything "rational" to happen. What happens
> today, is whatever the game fixers decide. Until they're
> kicked to the curb. It's like when I pay too much today
> for a loaf of bread. Do I lament "oh, bread is so fucking expensive,
> who thought that a few grains of wheat would cost so much" ?
> Will the price fixers *ever* be punished. There's no
> Chinese bread on offer. The bread companies do not compete
> with one another. They were *caught* price fixing (evidence trail).
> And they still seem to be doing it. Because they know (demonstrated)
> that the law is toothless.
>
> The single biggest impediment to a transition, is weak-kneed
> behavior on the drop-dead date for the transition. If
> they selected 2035, they must stick to it. If they
> don't stick to it, by induction, they can go to their
> next conference of world leaders and say "we are not
> participating, sorry". You only get one chance to
> establish a drop-dead date. Because all the gamers
> know, when push comes to shove, you will just push the
> date out again.
>
> The product COULD be better. Just a question of applying
> the right degree of pain. The price of battery packs
> is falling. Does the price of cars carefully track this trend ?
> No ? My surprised face.
>
> Paul

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 04:53:37 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 05/04/2024 18:14, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 19:37:28 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/04/2024 09:29, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 18:53:25 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/04/2024 01:57, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 10:06:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 04/04/2024 23:33, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:08:09 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 04/04/2024 20:30, Handsome Jack wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cross Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> socialist regime is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> magistrates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article
>>>>>>>>>>> 5(c) of the
>>>>>>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as
>>>>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>>>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He is only there because of his previous actions of trying to
>>>>>>>>> flee justice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's not the reason for the 5 year delay in deciding whether
>>>>>>>> to extradite him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much of that is due to negotiations with the USA to ensure that he
>>>>>>> gets the same rights at trial as a US citizen and that does not
>>>>>>> face the death penalty if he is extradited.
>>>>
>>>>>> So nothing to do with his previous actions of trying to flee
>>>>>> justice.
>>>>
>>>>> It is everything to do with it.
>>>> Bullshit.
>>>>
>>>>> Most people would be out on bail instead. However, having broken his
>>>>> previous bail conditions, first he was tried for that offence and
>>>>> sentenced to 50 weeks imprisonment. When that ended, he was remanded
>>>>> in custody precisely because he had proven that he was a flight
>>>>> risk. The length of time held on remand is a factor of the
>>>>> complexity of the extradition process.
>>
>>>> 50 weeks is fuck all of the FIVE YEARS
>>
>>> It is nearly 20% of it
>> Like I said, fuck all.
>>
>>> and he could have been out on bail, had henot skipped bail before. It
>>> is all his own fault.

>> Bullshit a stupid 5 year delay is.

> In round figures, the first year was when he was imprisoned after having
> been found guilty of breaking his bail conditions. The second year was
> due to Covid restrictions shutting down much of the justice system. The
> next year was spent in considering his extradition and the last two
> years have been spent by his lawyers fighting the decision to extradite.

Still a stupid amount of time and clearly not all his fault.

> He probably can't beheld responsible for Covid, but being held on remand
> for four years after his prison sentence is definitely down to his
> previous behaviour.

Bullshit.

>>>>>>>>>> It only remains to agree on the other matter I raised, of how
>>>>>>>>>> long he has been so imprisoned. The answer appears to be about
>>>>>>>>>> five years.
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in
>>>>>>>>>> prison without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He brought that on himself by absconding while on bail.

On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
> Jack) wrote:
>
>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross Berlin
>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist regime is
>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>  You are wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>  Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>  But has had no trial.
>>>>>
>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>
>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>
>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>> under Article 6.
>>
>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>
>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>
> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
> was taken against him.

It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for him,
but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer than
he had already been held.

> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.

Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a breach
of his human rights. His time on remand should also count towards any
prison sentence he might eventually get, but, as he is facing up to 170
years inside, that won't be much help.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>> Jack) wrote:
>>
>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>> You are wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>> But has had no trial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>
>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>>> under Article 6.
>>>
>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that Assange
>>> is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to agree on
>>> the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so imprisoned. The
>>> answer appears to be about five years.
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>
>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>> was taken against him.
>
> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for him,
> but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer than
> he had already been held.
>
>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.

> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a breach
> of his human rights. His time on remand should also count towards any
> prison sentence he might eventually get,

It doesnt work like that with the US system.

> but, as he is facing up to 170 years inside,

That's the maximum, stupid.

> that won't be much help.

Bet he never gets extradited to the USA

On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 09:33:46 +0100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:

>On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>> Jack) wrote:
>>
>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross Berlin
>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist regime is
>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>  You are wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>  Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>  But has had no trial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>
>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>>> under Article 6.
>>>
>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>
>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>
>> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>> was taken against him.
>
>It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for him,
>but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer than
>he had already been held.

You're making the fatal assumption that time on remand comes off
sentence everywhere in the world, which is simply not the case. In
fact even in Britain, there have been periods where *no* allowance at
all was made for time served on remand. I know for a fact 30+ years
ago, that was the certainly the case in England and Wales.

>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>
>Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a breach
>of his human rights. His time on remand should also count towards any
>prison sentence he might eventually get, but, as he is facing up to 170
>years inside, that won't be much help.

170 years? Give me a lethal jab any day!

On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>   You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>   Yes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>   But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>
>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>
>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>  Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>> was taken against him.
>>
>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer
>> than he had already been held.
>>
>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>
>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>
> It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>
>> but, as he is facing up to 170   years inside,
>
> That's the maximum, stupid.

That is what 'up to' implies.

>> that won't be much help.
>
> Bet he never gets extradited to the USA

Extradition was approved two years ago. The current status is that the
High Court is awaiting assurances from the USA that he will be able to
rely upon the first amendment, that he will be given the same rights of
free speech as a US citizen and that the death penalty will not be
imposed. If those assurances are not given, he will be allowed to appeal
against extradition. If they are, another Court hearing in May will
decide whether those assurances are satisfactory and will make a final
decision.

So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will know
that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to extradition
on the basis of human rights violations, so they are unlikely not to be
given. As this will be a high profile case which will be widely
reported, the UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are
likely to be kept, so it doesn't look good for him.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 10:48:34 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 09:33:46 +0100, Colin Bignell
><cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross Berlin
>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist regime is
>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>  You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>  Yes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>  But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>
>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>
>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>
>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>
>>> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>> was taken against him.
>>
>>It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for him,
>>but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer than
>>he had already been held.
>
>You're making the fatal assumption that time on remand comes off
>sentence everywhere in the world, which is simply not the case. In
>fact even in Britain, there have been periods where *no* allowance at
>all was made for time served on remand. I know for a fact 30+ years
>ago, that was the certainly the case in England and Wales.
>
>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>>
>>Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a breach
>>of his human rights. His time on remand should also count towards any
>>prison sentence he might eventually get, but, as he is facing up to 170
>>years inside, that won't be much help.
>
>170 years? Give me a lethal jab any day!

OK, just say when and where and I'll see what I can do.

On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 21:49:51 +1100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>> You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>> But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as
>>>>>> required
>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>
>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>>> was taken against him.
>>>
>>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer
>>> than he had already been held.
>>>
>>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>>
>>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>> It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>>
>>> but, as he is facing up to 170 years inside,

>> That's the maximum, stupid.

> That is what 'up to' implies.

But it is stupid to wave that around given the Manning
got nothing even remotely like that even before Obama
pardoned him. Just more silly wild exaggeration from you.

>>> that won't be much help.

>> Bet he never gets extradited to the USA

> Extradition was approved two years ago.

But hasnt happened.

> The current status is that the High Court is awaitingassurances from
> the USA that he will be able to rely upon the first amendment,

That doesnt apply to non citizens.

> that he will be given the same rights of free speech as a US citizen and
> that the death penalty will not be imposed. If those assurances are not
> given, he will be allowed to appeal against extradition. If they are,
> another Court hearing in May will decide whether those assurances are
> satisfactory and will make a final decision.

And that has taken 5 fucking years.

> So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will know
> that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to extradition
> on thebasis of human rights violations, so they are unlikely not to be
> given.

Why has that taken so fucking long ?

> As this will be a high profile case which will be widely reported,the
> UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are likely to be
> kept, so it doesn't look good for him.

Its not that black and white with the 1st amendment.

On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 11:49:51 +0100, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:

>On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>   You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>>   Yes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>>   But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>
>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>>  Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>>> was taken against him.
>>>
>>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer
>>> than he had already been held.
>>>
>>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>>
>>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>>
>> It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>>
>>> but, as he is facing up to 170   years inside,
>>
>> That's the maximum, stupid.
>
>That is what 'up to' implies.
>
>>> that won't be much help.
>>
>> Bet he never gets extradited to the USA
>
>Extradition was approved two years ago. The current status is that the
>High Court is awaiting assurances from the USA that he will be able to
>rely upon the first amendment, that he will be given the same rights of
>free speech as a US citizen and that the death penalty will not be
>imposed. If those assurances are not given, he will be allowed to appeal
>against extradition. If they are, another Court hearing in May will
>decide whether those assurances are satisfactory and will make a final
>decision.
>
>So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will know
>that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to extradition
>on the basis of human rights violations, so they are unlikely not to be
>given. As this will be a high profile case which will be widely
>reported, the UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are
>likely to be kept, so it doesn't look good for him.

There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can convince
the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health (mental or
physical or both) then that can also be a bar to extradition. This
could drag on and on....

On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 11:49:51 +0100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>>   You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>>>   Yes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>>>   But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c) of the
>>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as required
>>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>>>  Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>>>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>>>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>>>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>>>> was taken against him.
>>>>
>>>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>>>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no longer
>>>> than he had already been held.
>>>>
>>>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>>>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>>>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>>>
>>>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>>>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>>>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>>>
>>> It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>>>
>>>> but, as he is facing up to 170   years inside,
>>>
>>> That's the maximum, stupid.
>>
>> That is what 'up to' implies.
>>
>>>> that won't be much help.
>>>
>>> Bet he never gets extradited to the USA
>>
>> Extradition was approved two years ago. The current status is that the
>> High Court is awaiting assurances from the USA that he will be able to
>> rely upon the first amendment, that he will be given the same rights of
>> free speech as a US citizen and that the death penalty will not be
>> imposed. If those assurances are not given, he will be allowed to appeal
>> against extradition. If they are, another Court hearing in May will
>> decide whether those assurances are satisfactory and will make a final
>> decision.
>>
>> So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will know
>> that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to extradition
>> on the basis of human rights violations, so they are unlikely not to be
>> given. As this will be a high profile case which will be widely
>> reported, the UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are
>> likely to be kept, so it doesn't look good for him.
>
> There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can convince
> the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health (mental or
> physical or both) then that can also be a bar to extradition. This
> could drag on and on....

I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.

--
Colin Bignell

On 06/04/2024 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 21:49:51 +1100, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome
>>>>>>>>>>> Jack> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>>   You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>>>   Yes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>>>   But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c)
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as
>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>>>  Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted in
>>>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial in
>>>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back to
>>>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>>>> was taken against him.
>>>>
>>>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>>>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no
>>>> longer than he had already been held.
>>>>
>>>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like to
>>>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should be a
>>>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of course.
>>>
>>>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>>>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>>>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>>>  It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>>>
>>>> but, as he is facing up to 170   years inside,
>
>>>  That's the maximum, stupid.
>
>> That is what 'up to' implies.
>
> But it is stupid to wave that around given the Manning
> got nothing even remotely like that even before Obama
> pardoned him. Just more silly wild exaggeration from you.
>
>>>> that won't be much help.
>
>>>  Bet he never gets extradited to the USA
>
>> Extradition was approved two years ago.
>
> But hasnt happened.
>
>> The current status is that the  High Court is awaitingassurances from
>> the USA that he will be able to rely upon the first amendment,
>
> That doesnt apply to non citizens.

Hence the UK Courts seeking assurances that he will get the same
protection from the first and fifth amendments as if he were a US citizen.

>
>> that he will be given the same rights of free speech as a US citizen
>> and that the death penalty will not be imposed. If those assurances
>> are not given, he will be allowed to appeal against extradition. If
>> they are, another Court hearing in May will decide whether those
>> assurances are satisfactory and will make a final decision.
>
> And that has taken 5 fucking years.

As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence for
breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting the
justice system, then it took a year to agree to extradition and his
lawyers have spent another two years appealing that.

>
>> So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will
>> know that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to
>> extradition  on thebasis of human rights violations, so they are
>> unlikely not to be  given.
>
> Why has that taken so fucking long ?
>
>> As this will be a high profile case which will be widely  reported,the
>> UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are likely to be
>> kept, so it doesn't look good for him.
>
> Its not that black and white with the 1st amendment.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:31 +1000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Apr 2024 11:49:51 +0100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>>>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome Jack>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>>> You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>>>> But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c)
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as
>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>>>> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap
>>>>>> wanted in
>>>>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>>>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>>>>> was taken against him.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>>>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>>>>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no
>>>>> longer
>>>>> than he had already been held.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>>>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>>>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>>>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>>>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>>>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of
>>>>>> course.
>>>>
>>>>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>>>>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>>>>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>>>>
>>>> It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>>>>
>>>>> but, as he is facing up to 170 years inside,
>>>>
>>>> That's the maximum, stupid.
>>>
>>> That is what 'up to' implies.
>>>
>>>>> that won't be much help.
>>>>
>>>> Bet he never gets extradited to the USA
>>>
>>> Extradition was approved two years ago. The current status is that the
>>> High Court is awaiting assurances from the USA that he will be able to
>>> rely upon the first amendment, that he will be given the same rights of
>>> free speech as a US citizen and that the death penalty will not be
>>> imposed. If those assurances are not given, he will be allowed to
>>> appeal
>>> against extradition. If they are, another Court hearing in May will
>>> decide whether those assurances are satisfactory and will make a final
>>> decision.
>>>
>>> So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will
>>> know
>>> that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to extradition
>>> on the basis of human rights violations, so they are unlikely not to be
>>> given. As this will be a high profile case which will be widely
>>> reported, the UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are
>>> likely to be kept, so it doesn't look good for him.
>> There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can convince
>> the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health (mental or
>> physical or both) then that can also be a bar to extradition. This
>> could drag on and on....
>
> I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.

It remains to be seen if they have failed.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/04/2024 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 21:49:51 +1100, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/04/2024 10:01, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:33:46 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/04/2024 18:46, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Jack@handsome.com (Handsome
>>>>>> Jack) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Apr 2024 08:27:23 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 01/04/2024 19:40, blacky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Apr 2024 21:43:53 +1100, Tim Streater
>>>>>>>>>>> <tim@streater.me.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2024 at 09:38:19 BST, "Handsome Jack" <Handsome
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wall.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regime is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> coercion, not equality."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How long has Julian Assange been imprisoned without trial?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No time at all, AFAIK.
>>>>>>>>>>> You are wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He spent some years in a foreign embassy avoiding the
>>>>>>>>>>>> judicial process,
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and is currently in extradition proceedings.
>>>>>>>>>>> But has had no trial.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He is on remand, which means he has appeared before magistrates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that is not a TRIAL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It does, however, make it a lawful detention under Article 5(c)
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> European Convention on Human Rights, pending a fair trial as
>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>> under Article 6.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am at least glad that we have agreed on the two points that
>>>>>>> Assange is in prison without having been tried. It only remains to
>>>>>>> agree on the other matter I raised, of how long he has been so
>>>>>>> imprisoned. The answer appears to be about five years.
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473792
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is of course open to anyone to argue that five years in prison
>>>>>>> without trial is a fair and reasonable judicial process.
>>>>>> Sadly it is *not* unprecedented. There was a Malaysian chap wanted
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Malaysia on fraud charges who spent 7 years detained without trial
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the roughest London prisons. When he was *eventually* deported back
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Malaysia, they felt so sorry for the poor cunt they released him
>>>>>> immediately due to the time served in England and no further action
>>>>>> was taken against him.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is usual for time held on remand to be counted when determining a
>>>>> prison sentence, so it wold not have been that they felt sorry for
>>>>> him, but that his sentence for the crime would not have been no
>>>>> longer than he had already been held.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This was about 30 years ago now, so it's
>>>>>> probable - or at least possible - someone else now holds this
>>>>>> unfortunate record. And perhaps Assange may beat it again. We like
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> think we're so liberal and progressive in the UK and that kind of
>>>>>> thing only happens in places like Iran or North Korea, but the ugly
>>>>>> truth is that we are not much better than those places. It should
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> cause of deep national shame, but it all goes largely unreported and
>>>>>> no one would give a shit anyway - until it happens to them, of
>>>>>> course.
>>>>
>>>>> Assange's legal team have never suggested that his detention is a
>>>>> breach of his human rights. His time on remand should also count
>>>>> towards any prison sentence he might eventually get,
>>>> It doesnt work like that with the US system.
>>>>
>>>>> but, as he is facing up to 170 years inside,
>>
>>>> That's the maximum, stupid.
>>
>>> That is what 'up to' implies.
>> But it is stupid to wave that around given the Manning
>> got nothing even remotely like that even before Obama
>> pardoned him. Just more silly wild exaggeration from you.
>>
>>>>> that won't be much help.
>>
>>>> Bet he never gets extradited to the USA
>>
>>> Extradition was approved two years ago.
>> But hasnt happened.
>>
>>> The current status is that the High Court is awaitingassurances from
>>> the USA that he will be able to rely upon the first amendment,
>> That doesnt apply to non citizens.
>
> Hence the UK Courts seeking assurances that he will get the same
> protection from the first and fifth amendments as if he were a US
> citizen.
>
>>
>>> that he will be given the same rights of free speech as a US citizen
>>> and that the death penalty will not be imposed. If those assurances
>>> are not given, he will be allowed to appeal against extradition. If
>>> they are, another Court hearing in May will decide whether those
>>> assurances are satisfactory and will make a final decision.
>> And that has taken 5 fucking years.

> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence for
> breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting the
> justice system,

That bit is bullshit.

> then it took a year to agree to extradition and his lawyers have spent
> another two years appealing that.

Still means it has taken FAR too long to decided whether
he will be extradited.

>>> So, we should know within a few weeks. However, the US lawyers will
>>> know that failing to give those guarantees will trigger a bar to
>>> extradition on thebasis of human rights violations, so they are
>>> unlikely not to be given.
>> Why has that taken so fucking long ?
>>
>>> As this will be a high profile case which will be widely reported,the
>>> UK judges are likely to consider that the assurances are likely to be
>>> kept, so it doesn't look good for him.
>> Its not that black and white with the 1st amendment.

On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
....
>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence
>> for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting the
>> justice system,
>
> That bit is bullshit.

They are easily checked facts.

>
>> then it took a year to agree to extradition and his lawyers have spent
>> another two years appealing that.
>
> Still means it has taken FAR too long to decided whether
> he will be extradited....

The decision was made in 2021. He could have been out of the country
within 28 days of that, had there not been any appeals.

--
Colin Bignell

On 06/04/2024 21:49, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:31 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
....
>>>  There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can convince
>>> the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health (mental or
>>> physical or both) then that can also be a bar to extradition. This
>>> could drag on and on....
>>
>> I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.
>
> It remains to be seen if they have failed.

Initially, it succeeded, but, in 2021, the Westminster Magistrate's
Court was directed by the High Court to refer the matter to the
Secretary of State, following an appeal by and assurances from the USA:

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2021/12/13/usa-successfully-appeals-assange-case/

This is the current the current judgment on the case:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Assange-v-USA-Judgment.pdf

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:14 +1000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
> ...
>>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence
>>> for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting the
>>> justice system,
>> That bit is bullshit.

> They are easily checked facts.

The courts that decide that stuff were not shut down for a year.

>>> then it took a year to agree to extradition and his lawyers have spent
>>> another two years appealing that.

>> Still means it has taken FAR too long to decided whether
>> he will be extradited....

> The decision was made in 2021. He could have been out of the country
> within 28 days of that, had there not been any appeals.

Of course there were appeals when he did no crime in the USA.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:23 +1000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/04/2024 21:49, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:31 +1000, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> ...
>>>> There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can
>>>> convince
>>>> the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health (mental or
>>>> physical or both) then that can also be a bar to extradition. This
>>>> could drag on and on....
>>>
>>> I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.

>> It remains to be seen if they have failed.

> Initially, it succeeded, but, in 2021, the Westminster Magistrate's
> Court was directed by the High Court to refer the matter to the
> Secretary of State, following an appeal by and assurances from the USA:

They tried that much later than 2021

> https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2021/12/13/usa-successfully-appeals-assange-case/

> This is the current the current judgment on the case:

> https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Assange-v-USA-Judgment.pdf

Irrelevant to the question of whether they
have failed to stop him being extradited..

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 06:49:21 +1000
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:31 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:

> >> There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can
> >> convince the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health
> >> (mental or physical or both) then that can also be a bar to
> >> extradition. This could drag on and on....
> >
> > I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.
>
> It remains to be seen if they have failed.

Hey, the man who is fit to be President of the USA has been found
unfit to stand trial...

--
Joe

On 06/04/2024 23:18, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:14 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>> ...
>>>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence
>>>> for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting
>>>> the justice system,
>>>  That bit is bullshit.
>
>> They are easily checked facts.
>
> The courts that decide that stuff were not shut down for a year.

The Constitution Committee report on the effect of Covid on the Justice
system concluded that the lower Courts (which includes the Westminster
Magistrate's Court) experienced the greatest difficulty in adapting to
new procedures to meet the demands of Covid. They didn't shut down, but
big backlogs built up, which delayed a lot of cases.

>
>>>> then it took a year to agree to extradition and his lawyers have
>>>> spent another two years appealing that.
>
>>>  Still means it has taken FAR too long to decided whether
>>> he will be extradited....
>
>> The decision was made in 2021. He could have been out of the country
>> within 28 days of that, had there not been any appeals.
>
> Of course there were appeals when he did no crime in the USA.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 17:57:51 +1000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 06:49:21 +1000
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:31 +1000, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>
>> >> There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can
>> >> convince the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health
>> >> (mental or physical or both) then that can also be a bar to
>> >> extradition. This could drag on and on....
>> >
>> > I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.
>>
>> It remains to be seen if they have failed.
>
> Hey, the man who is fit to be President of the USA has been found
> unfit to stand trial...

Bullshit

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:22:07 +1000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/04/2024 23:18, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:14 +1000, Colin Bignell
>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>> ...
>>>>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence
>>>>> for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting
>>>>> the justice system,
>>>> That bit is bullshit.
>>
>>> They are easily checked facts.

>> The courts that decide that stuff were not shut down for a year.

> The Constitution Committee report on the effect of Covid on the Justice
> system concluded that the lower Courts (which includes the Westminster
> Magistrate's Court) experienced the greatest difficulty in adapting to
> new procedures to meet the demands of Covid.

That isnt what decided whether Assange got to be extradited.

> They didn't shut down, but big backlogs built up, which delayed a lot of
> cases.

That isnt what decided whether Assange got to be extradited.

>>>>> then it took a year to agree to extradition and his lawyers have
>>>>> spent another two years appealing that.
>>
>>>> Still means it has taken FAR too long to decided whether
>>>> he will be extradited....
>>
>>> The decision was made in 2021. He could have been out of the country
>>> within 28 days of that, had there not been any appeals.
>> Of course there were appeals when he did no crime in the USA.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 19:39:56 +1000
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 17:57:51 +1000, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 06:49:21 +1000
> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:31 +1000, Colin Bignell
> >> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On 06/04/2024 20:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> >
> >> >> There's a further get-out for him, though. If his lawyers can
> >> >> convince the Court that he is unfit for trial due to poor health
> >> >> (mental or physical or both) then that can also be a bar to
> >> >> extradition. This could drag on and on....
> >> >
> >> > I am fairly sure they have already tried that and failed.
> >>
> >> It remains to be seen if they have failed.
> >
> > Hey, the man who is fit to be President of the USA has been found
> > unfit to stand trial...
>
> Bullshit

A court's decision. Semantically equivalent in many cases.

--
Joe

On 06/04/2024 23:18, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:14 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>> ...
>>>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a sentence
>>>> for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid disrupting
>>>> the justice system,
>>>  That bit is bullshit.
>
>> They are easily checked facts.
>
> The courts that decide that stuff were not shut down for a year.

Does this mean you accept that the courts are requesting from the US he
can rely on the First Amendment and that it's not bullshit after all?
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Assange-Press-Summary.pdf

On 07/04/2024 10:42, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:22:07 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 23:18, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:14 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a
>>>>>> sentence for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid
>>>>>> disrupting the justice system,
>>>>>  That bit is bullshit.
>>>
>>>> They are easily checked facts.
>
>>>  The courts that decide that stuff were not shut down for a year.
>
>> The Constitution Committee report on the effect of Covid on the
>> Justice system concluded that the lower Courts (which includes the
>> Westminster Magistrate's Court) experienced the greatest difficulty in
>> adapting to new procedures to meet the demands of Covid.
>
> That isnt what decided whether Assange got to be extradited.

As already explained, it cause a year's delay in proceedings.

>> They didn't shut down, but big backlogs built up, which delayed a lot
>> of cases.
>
> That isnt what decided whether Assange got to be extradited.

As already explained, it cause a year's delay in proceedings.

On 07/04/2024 10:42, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:22:07 +1000, Colin Bignell
> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 06/04/2024 23:18, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 07:26:14 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/04/2024 21:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 05:45:36 +1000, Colin Bignell
>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>>> As I detailed in another post, he spent one year serving a
>>>>>> sentence for breaking bail, a second year was lost due to Covid
>>>>>> disrupting the justice system,
>>>>>  That bit is bullshit.
>>>
>>>> They are easily checked facts.
>
>>>  The courts that decide that stuff were not shut down for a year.
>
>> The Constitution Committee report on the effect of Covid on the
>> Justice system concluded that the lower Courts (which includes the
>> Westminster Magistrate's Court) experienced the greatest difficulty in
>> adapting to new procedures to meet the demands of Covid.
>
> That isnt what decided whether Assange got to be extradited.

Extradition is first considered at a Magistrate's Court. They also try
90% of cases and during Covid they were struggling to cope. That wasn't
helped by an increasing number of arrests, following a drive to recruit
more police.

>
>> They didn't shut down, but big backlogs built up, which delayed a lot
>> of cases.
>
> That isnt what decided whether Assange got to be extradited.
>
>>>>>> then it took a year to agree to extradition and his lawyers have
>>>>>> spent another two years appealing that.
>>>
>>>>>  Still means it has taken FAR too long to decided whether
>>>>> he will be extradited....
>>>
>>>> The decision was made in 2021. He could have been out of the country
>>>> within 28 days of that, had there not been any appeals.
>>>  Of course there were appeals when he did no crime in the USA.

--
Colin Bignell