In article <uvmqed$15diu$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid>
wrote:
> On 16/04/2024 21:45, charles wrote:
> > In article <uvmmn7$14i0k$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >> On 16/04/2024 20:08, charles wrote:
> >>> In article <20240416185125.3e3dd368@jrenewsid.jretrading.com>, Joe
> >>> <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 17:04:14 +0100 Harry Bloomfield Esq
> >>>> <a@harrym1byt.plus.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> On 12/04/2024 18:33, David wrote:
> >>>>>> I was wondering about an external aerial or perhaps a complete
> >>>>>> Access Point to take the WiFi out into the back garden.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have a router/access point in the loft, second one on ground
> >>>>> floor (2.4/5Ghz). I fitted a 2.4/5Ghz extender, outdoor, in my hut,
> >>>>> to improve garden access. It works quite well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mounting the router indoors, connected to an antenna outdoors,
> >>>>> there will be high losses via the coax - so you would need to
> >>>>> consider mounting the router very close to the antenna..
> >>>
> >>>> There really shouldn't be. Pretty much all RF coax is 50 Ohms, and
> >>>> most small commercial antennas are nominally 50 Ohms.
> >>>
> >>>> As long as the antenna is a 50 Ohm type, losses should be small.
> >>>
> >>> not at 5GHz !
> >
> >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/20-Metre-Pro-Extension-Cable/dp/B00OZQRNSC
> >
> >> Suggests "Approx 0.22dB loss per Metre for 2.4GHz applications. Approx
> >> 0.36dB loss per Metre for 5GHz applications".
> >
> > so, over half the signal will be lost at 5GHz.

> If longer than 8.3m or 27ft?

It's a made up cable - I assume you intended to use the full length

> >> So it rather depends on how farther hut is away from the source.
> >
> >> If any distance I think a better bet is Ethernet with POE supplying
> >> power to an Access Point in the hut.
> >

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 16/04/2024 18:51, Joe wrote:
> There really shouldn't be. Pretty much all RF coax is 50 Ohms, and most
> small commercial antennas are nominally 50 Ohms.
>
> As long as the antenna is a 50 Ohm type, losses should be small.
> Something significantly different (e.g. home-made dipole, folded dipole)
> will need a matching balun transformer to talk to 50 Ohms unbalanced,
> and a commercial antenna will typically be supplied with one for use
> with 50 Ohm cable.

Believe me - at these frequencies, losses are massive, even with the
best quality, perfectly matched coax.

I set up a (legal for me), wifi link using homemade, pole mounted, yagi
antennas, and routers over 1/2 mile. The only way it could be made to
work, was using short coax links, between router and antenna. Basicly, I
had to mount the routers in watertight boxes, on the pole, by the
antennas, to overcome the coax losses.

On 16/04/2024 20:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> well most wifi is 2.4 still

RF properties, which are not that much different to 5Ghz

On 17/04/2024 08:08, charles wrote:
> In article <uvmqed$15diu$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid>
> wrote:
>> On 16/04/2024 21:45, charles wrote:
>>> In article <uvmmn7$14i0k$1@dont-email.me>, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 16/04/2024 20:08, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <20240416185125.3e3dd368@jrenewsid.jretrading.com>, Joe
>>>>> <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2024 17:04:14 +0100 Harry Bloomfield Esq
>>>>>> <a@harrym1byt.plus.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/04/2024 18:33, David wrote:
>>>>>>>> I was wondering about an external aerial or perhaps a complete
>>>>>>>> Access Point to take the WiFi out into the back garden.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a router/access point in the loft, second one on ground
>>>>>>> floor (2.4/5Ghz). I fitted a 2.4/5Ghz extender, outdoor, in my hut,
>>>>>>> to improve garden access. It works quite well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mounting the router indoors, connected to an antenna outdoors,
>>>>>>> there will be high losses via the coax - so you would need to
>>>>>>> consider mounting the router very close to the antenna..
>>>>>
>>>>>> There really shouldn't be. Pretty much all RF coax is 50 Ohms, and
>>>>>> most small commercial antennas are nominally 50 Ohms.
>>>>>
>>>>>> As long as the antenna is a 50 Ohm type, losses should be small.
>>>>>
>>>>> not at 5GHz !
>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/20-Metre-Pro-Extension-Cable/dp/B00OZQRNSC
>>>
>>>> Suggests "Approx 0.22dB loss per Metre for 2.4GHz applications. Approx
>>>> 0.36dB loss per Metre for 5GHz applications".
>>>
>>> so, over half the signal will be lost at 5GHz.
>
>> If longer than 8.3m or 27ft?
>
> It's a made up cable - I assume you intended to use the full length

Ok, that was intended as an example of loss per metre. I was thinking
you might purchase the cable and make your own up to minimise required
length where you fit your own connectors. Not sue how practical that is.

>>>> So it rather depends on how farther hut is away from the source.
>>>
>>>> If any distance I think a better bet is Ethernet with POE supplying
>>>> power to an Access Point in the hut.

On 17/04/2024 11:22, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 16/04/2024 20:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> well most wifi is 2.4 still
>
> RF properties, which are not that much different to 5Ghz
About half the attenuation, typically

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 16-Apr-24 21:23, Fredxx wrote:
>
> If any distance I think a better bet is Ethernet with POE supplying
> power to an Access Point in the hut.

That would be the most reliable answer, provided that it's possible to
make a suitable arrangement for the cable run. Would trenching, in
order to bury the cable, involve demolishing a patio etc. etc.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Wed, 17 Apr 2024 21:02:44 +0100, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 16-Apr-24 21:23, Fredxx wrote:
>>
>> If any distance I think a better bet is Ethernet with POE supplying
>> power to an Access Point in the hut.
>
> That would be the most reliable answer, provided that it's possible to
> make a suitable arrangement for the cable run. Would trenching, in
> order to bury the cable, involve demolishing a patio etc. etc.

There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon garden
string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside the shed.
About 12 years ago.
I should have used larger pipe but this was all done in a rush on the
last day of the digger hire.
The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet cable.

Trenching would not work under the rear floor of the house.

I am contemplating digging down to the pipe if the initial pull doesn't
work as the crucial part is under the rear of the house.

Which is where the bends are which are most likely to cause problems.

All the result of running out of steam at the end of a major building
project and never getting back to it.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
> There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon garden
> string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside the shed.
> About 12 years ago.
> I should have used larger pipe but this was all done in a rush on the
> last day of the digger hire.

How big is the pipe?

> The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
> something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet cable.
>
> Trenching would not work under the rear floor of the house.
>
> I am contemplating digging down to the pipe if the initial pull doesn't
> work as the crucial part is under the rear of the house.
>
> Which is where the bends are which are most likely to cause problems.
>
> All the result of running out of steam at the end of a major building
> project and never getting back to it.

I was just having the same problem (the metal garage door blocks all signal
into the garage). I do have a 10mm copper pipe previously used for an oil
supply and was wondering...

It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I could
blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter. On the upstream end
I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre module - these
are easily available used on ebay and not expensive. Turns out there aren't
many wifi access points that will take a fibre connection directly (the main
ones are for big sites like stadiums and so pricey). But I found the Banana
Pi R3 which is a $100 router board running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x
SFP cages...

Maybe blown fibre would get around your bends?

Normally they blow through bare fibre and terminate that end afterwards.
Termination is a PITA and it's easier to use a pre-made termination, but not
sure if the fitting would blow through. The ISPs are using single mode
fibre which is smaller but more finnicky to terminate, I'd probably try
multimode fibre which is easier to work with but fatter - I don't know how
well that would blow, would need experimentation.

I should probably just bit the bullet and dig some copper instead, but the
blown fibre idea is tempting...

Theo

Theo wrote:

> It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I could
> blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter. On the upstream end
> I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre module - these
> are easily available used on ebay and not expensive. Turns out there aren't
> many wifi access points that will take a fibre connection directly (the main
> ones are for big sites like stadiums and so pricey). But I found the Banana
> Pi R3 which is a $100 router board running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x
> SFP cages...

fibre/copper media converters are cheap on eBay ...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
>
> > It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I could
> > blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter. On the upstream end
> > I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre module - these
> > are easily available used on ebay and not expensive. Turns out there aren't
> > many wifi access points that will take a fibre connection directly (the main
> > ones are for big sites like stadiums and so pricey). But I found the Banana
> > Pi R3 which is a $100 router board running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x
> > SFP cages...
>
> fibre/copper media converters are cheap on eBay ...

That's true. I was originally looking at SFP converters, which are less
common (although do exist). But if the optical transceiver is integrated
into the box then it seems there are more options.

Theo

On 18/04/2024 15:16, Theo wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Theo wrote:
>>
>>> It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I could
>>> blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter. On the upstream end
>>> I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre module - these
>>> are easily available used on ebay and not expensive. Turns out there aren't
>>> many wifi access points that will take a fibre connection directly (the main
>>> ones are for big sites like stadiums and so pricey). But I found the Banana
>>> Pi R3 which is a $100 router board running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x
>>> SFP cages...
>>
>> fibre/copper media converters are cheap on eBay ...
>
> That's true. I was originally looking at SFP converters, which are less
> common (although do exist). But if the optical transceiver is integrated
> into the box then it seems there are more options.
>
> Theo

The TP-Link MC220L media converters are cheap and take sfp modules of
your choice. There are now some incredibly cheap switches on Ali
Express and even Amazon which have one or two SFP+ connectors.
As for pulling cables down pipes, I recently pulled a couple of outdoors
grade cat5e cables through a buried blue water pipe that was about 50m long.
I used a vacuum cleaner to suck a drawstring string down the pipe. I
used baler twine as it is cheap, strong and readily available on a farm.
All it needs is for the end of the drawstring to be bundled up into a
ball about the same diameter as the inside of the pipe.
The outdoors grade cable I used has a black polythene sheath which is
very slippery. All underground pipes end up with some water in them
after a time which helps to lubricate the pull. The job is much easier
with two people so that one can feed the cable in without it kinking.
John

In message <LLy*2NeIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon garden
>> string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside the shed.
>> About 12 years ago.
>> I should have used larger pipe but this was all done in a rush on the
>> last day of the digger hire.
>
>How big is the pipe?
>
>> The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
>> something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet cable.

May not help you but something I have seen done... A neighbour was
involved in trench digging and laying green duct locally.
Unsurprisingly, a fair amount of this duct found uses in agriculture:
cable duct between existing barns etc.
The point for David is that the draw rope was installed later by being
attached to the handles of a plastic carrier bag and blown through the
duct with a blast of air from the compressor.
Ducts probably 75 and 100mm but should scale with a smaller bag:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On 17/04/2024 11:12, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 16/04/2024 18:51, Joe wrote:
>> There really shouldn't be. Pretty much all RF coax is 50 Ohms, and most
>> small commercial antennas are nominally 50 Ohms.
>>
>> As long as the antenna is a 50 Ohm type, losses should be small.
>> Something significantly different (e.g. home-made dipole, folded dipole)
>> will need a matching balun transformer to talk to 50 Ohms unbalanced,
>> and a commercial antenna will typically be supplied with one for use
>> with 50 Ohm cable.
>
> Believe me - at these frequencies, losses are massive, even with the
> best quality, perfectly matched coax.
>
> I set up a (legal for me), wifi link using homemade, pole mounted, yagi
> antennas, and routers over 1/2 mile. The only way it could be made to
> work, was using short coax links, between router and antenna. Basicly, I
> had to mount the routers in watertight boxes, on the pole, by the
> antennas, to overcome the coax losses.

I have sent WiFi over a 15m length of coax, but the cable did need
to be quite special. I used Westflex 103 which is 50 ohm,
semi-air spaced with a solid 2.6mm inner conductor. The shield
is copper tape and braid. Outer diameter is 9mm. The inner
conductor does not fit in standard N connectors without fettling,
so there are special connectors available for this cable with an
extra-large solder cup on the centre pin.
Attenuation at 1GHz is specified as 16.8dB/100m which would give
an attenuation of about 0.38dB/m at 5GHz.
This means that for my run the total loss was nearly 6dB at 5GHz
so I was losing three quarters of the power.

It is nearly always better to install an ethernet cable or fibre
and locate the access point close to the user. This also has the
advantage that one gets the benefit of the multiple antennas
giving spacial diversity and fading protection without needing
to run multiple coax cables.

John

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:02:01 +0100, Theo wrote:

> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon garden
>> string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside the shed.
>> About 12 years ago.
>> I should have used larger pipe but this was all done in a rush on the
>> last day of the digger hire.
>
> How big is the pipe?
>
>> The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
>> something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet cable.
>>
>> Trenching would not work under the rear floor of the house.
>>
>> I am contemplating digging down to the pipe if the initial pull doesn't
>> work as the crucial part is under the rear of the house.
>>
>> Which is where the bends are which are most likely to cause problems.
>>
>> All the result of running out of steam at the end of a major building
>> project and never getting back to it.
>
> I was just having the same problem (the metal garage door blocks all
> signal into the garage). I do have a 10mm copper pipe previously used
> for an oil supply and was wondering...
>
> It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I
> could blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter. On the
> upstream end I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre
> module - these are easily available used on ebay and not expensive.
> Turns out there aren't many wifi access points that will take a fibre
> connection directly (the main ones are for big sites like stadiums and
> so pricey). But I found the Banana Pi R3 which is a $100 router board
> running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x SFP cages...
>
> Maybe blown fibre would get around your bends?
>
> Normally they blow through bare fibre and terminate that end afterwards.
> Termination is a PITA and it's easier to use a pre-made termination, but
> not sure if the fitting would blow through. The ISPs are using single
> mode fibre which is smaller but more finnicky to terminate, I'd probably
> try multimode fibre which is easier to work with but fatter - I don't
> know how well that would blow, would need experimentation.
>
> I should probably just bit the bullet and dig some copper instead, but
> the blown fibre idea is tempting...
>
> Theo

White drain pipe about 40mm diameter - from a quick poke around with a
tape measure under the stairs.

I hope that it will be big enough but if the string snags and breaks I'm
not sure how I could run more of anything through, with a few angled
joints and about 6.8 metres under the house and another 2.5 metres under
the deck.

So I think it comes down to gentle easing of a stronger cord along from
the house end and then using that to pull Ethernet cable through.
It either works or it doesn't.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

On 18/04/2024 21:26, David wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:02:01 +0100, Theo wrote:
>
>> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon garden
>>> string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside the shed.
>>> About 12 years ago.
>>> I should have used larger pipe but this was all done in a rush on the
>>> last day of the digger hire.
>>
>> How big is the pipe?
>>
>>> The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
>>> something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet cable.
>>>
>>> Trenching would not work under the rear floor of the house.
>>>
>>> I am contemplating digging down to the pipe if the initial pull doesn't
>>> work as the crucial part is under the rear of the house.
>>>
>>> Which is where the bends are which are most likely to cause problems.
>>>
>>> All the result of running out of steam at the end of a major building
>>> project and never getting back to it.
>>
>> I was just having the same problem (the metal garage door blocks all
>> signal into the garage). I do have a 10mm copper pipe previously used
>> for an oil supply and was wondering...
>>
>> It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I
>> could blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter. On the
>> upstream end I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre
>> module - these are easily available used on ebay and not expensive.
>> Turns out there aren't many wifi access points that will take a fibre
>> connection directly (the main ones are for big sites like stadiums and
>> so pricey). But I found the Banana Pi R3 which is a $100 router board
>> running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x SFP cages...
>>
>> Maybe blown fibre would get around your bends?
>>
>> Normally they blow through bare fibre and terminate that end afterwards.
>> Termination is a PITA and it's easier to use a pre-made termination, but
>> not sure if the fitting would blow through. The ISPs are using single
>> mode fibre which is smaller but more finnicky to terminate, I'd probably
>> try multimode fibre which is easier to work with but fatter - I don't
>> know how well that would blow, would need experimentation.
>>
>> I should probably just bit the bullet and dig some copper instead, but
>> the blown fibre idea is tempting...
>>
>> Theo
>
> White drain pipe about 40mm diameter - from a quick poke around with a
> tape measure under the stairs.
>
> I hope that it will be big enough but if the string snags and breaks I'm
> not sure how I could run more of anything through, with a few angled
> joints and about 6.8 metres under the house and another 2.5 metres under
> the deck.
>
> So I think it comes down to gentle easing of a stronger cord along from
> the house end and then using that to pull Ethernet cable through.
> It either works or it doesn't.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Dave R
>
>
>
>
>

Try feeding through fish tape from one end to the other rather than risk
string breaking or losing whatever you had tied to end of string?

On 18/04/2024 21:54, SH wrote:
> On 18/04/2024 21:26, David wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:02:01 +0100, Theo wrote:
>>
>>> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon garden
>>>> string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside the shed.
>>>> About 12 years ago.
>>>> I should have used larger pipe but  this was all done in a rush on the
>>>> last day of the digger hire.
>>>
>>> How big is the pipe?
>>>
>>>> The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
>>>> something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet cable.
>>>>
>>>> Trenching would not work under the rear floor of the house.
>>>>
>>>> I am contemplating digging down to the pipe if the initial pull doesn't
>>>> work as the crucial part is under the rear of the house.
>>>>
>>>> Which is where the bends are which are most likely to cause problems.
>>>>
>>>> All the result of running out of steam at the end of a major building
>>>> project and never getting back to it.
>>>
>>> I was just having the same problem (the metal garage door blocks all
>>> signal into the garage).  I do have a 10mm copper pipe previously used
>>> for an oil supply and was wondering...
>>>
>>> It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but I
>>> could blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter.  On the
>>> upstream end I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre
>>> module - these are easily available used on ebay and not expensive.
>>> Turns out there aren't many wifi access points that will take a fibre
>>> connection directly (the main ones are for big sites like stadiums and
>>> so pricey).  But I found the Banana Pi R3 which is a $100 router board
>>> running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x SFP cages...
>>>
>>> Maybe blown fibre would get around your bends?
>>>
>>> Normally they blow through bare fibre and terminate that end afterwards.
>>> Termination is a PITA and it's easier to use a pre-made termination, but
>>> not sure if the fitting would blow through.  The ISPs are using single
>>> mode fibre which is smaller but more finnicky to terminate, I'd probably
>>> try multimode fibre which is easier to work with but fatter - I don't
>>> know how well that would blow, would need experimentation.
>>>
>>> I should probably just bit the bullet and dig some copper instead, but
>>> the blown fibre idea is tempting...
>>>
>>> Theo
>>
>> White drain pipe about 40mm diameter - from a quick poke around with a
>> tape measure under the stairs.
>>
>> I hope that it will be big enough but if the string snags and breaks I'm
>> not sure how I could run more of anything through, with a few angled
>> joints and about 6.8 metres under the house and another 2.5 metres under
>> the deck.
>>
>> So I think it comes down to gentle easing of a stronger cord along from
>> the house end and then using that to pull Ethernet cable through.
>> It either works or it doesn't.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave R
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Try feeding through fish tape from one end to the other rather than risk
> string breaking or losing whatever you had tied to end of string?

p.s. like this item:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/c-k-steel-draw-tape-30m-1200-/2418x

hopefully 30 m is long enough for you?

Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> May not help you but something I have seen done... A neighbour was
> involved in trench digging and laying green duct locally. Unsurprisingly,
> a fair amount of this duct found uses in agriculture: cable duct between
> existing barns etc. The point for David is that the draw rope was
> installed later by being attached to the handles of a plastic carrier bag
> and blown through the duct with a blast of air from the compressor. Ducts
> probably 75 and 100mm but should scale with a smaller bag:-)
>
I've managed to suck a draw rope into 25mm flexible conduit using a freezer
bag and a vacuum cleaner, about 10m IIRC for an ethernet cable.

--
braind

In message <uvs294$2e7kg$2@dont-email.me>, SH <i.love@spam.com> writes
snip
>>>
>>>
>> Try feeding through fish tape from one end to the other rather than
>>risk string breaking or losing whatever you had tied to end of string?
>
>
>p.s. like this item:
>
>https://www.screwfix.com/p/c-k-steel-draw-tape-30m-1200-/2418x
>
>hopefully 30 m is long enough for you?

Might be worth attaching a second draw *string* when you pull in the
connection. Ready for the next job:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On 18/04/2024 23:08, me9 wrote:
> Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> May not help you but something I have seen done... A neighbour was
>> involved in trench digging and laying green duct locally. Unsurprisingly,
>> a fair amount of this duct found uses in agriculture: cable duct between
>> existing barns etc. The point for David is that the draw rope was
>> installed later by being attached to the handles of a plastic carrier bag
>> and blown through the duct with a blast of air from the compressor. Ducts
>> probably 75 and 100mm but should scale with a smaller bag:-)
>>
> I've managed to suck a draw rope into 25mm flexible conduit using a freezer
> bag and a vacuum cleaner, about 10m IIRC for an ethernet cable.
>
Neat! flagged in case useful one day.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On Fri, 19 Apr 2024 09:00:53 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

> In message <uvs294$2e7kg$2@dont-email.me>, SH <i.love@spam.com> writes
> snip
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Try feeding through fish tape from one end to the other rather than
>>>risk string breaking or losing whatever you had tied to end of string?
>>
>>
>>p.s. like this item:
>>
>>https://www.screwfix.com/p/c-k-steel-draw-tape-30m-1200-/2418x
>>
>>hopefully 30 m is long enough for you?
>
> Might be worth attaching a second draw *string* when you pull in the
> connection. Ready for the next job:-)

That was the plan.
First get enough cord to be double the length of the run.
Then use first half to pull cables through, the remaining half to pull the
cord back ready for next time.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 22:10:59 +0100, SH wrote:

> On 18/04/2024 21:54, SH wrote:
>> On 18/04/2024 21:26, David wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:02:01 +0100, Theo wrote:
>>>
>>>> David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> There is already a white pipe (installed in haste) with a nylon
>>>>> garden string inside it from the Ethernet cupboard to just outside
>>>>> the shed. About 12 years ago.
>>>>> I should have used larger pipe but  this was all done in a rush on
>>>>> the last day of the digger hire.
>>>>
>>>> How big is the pipe?
>>>>
>>>>> The critical part is is the string is still intact enough to draw
>>>>> something more substantial through to in turn pull an Ethernet
>>>>> cable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trenching would not work under the rear floor of the house.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am contemplating digging down to the pipe if the initial pull
>>>>> doesn't work as the crucial part is under the rear of the house.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is where the bends are which are most likely to cause
>>>>> problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the result of running out of steam at the end of a major
>>>>> building project and never getting back to it.
>>>>
>>>> I was just having the same problem (the metal garage door blocks all
>>>> signal into the garage).  I do have a 10mm copper pipe previously
>>>> used for an oil supply and was wondering...
>>>>
>>>> It's likely too small for copper ethernet, especially the bends, but
>>>> I could blow fibre through it - it can be about 1mm diameter.  On the
>>>> upstream end I'd use a switch with an SFP port which can take a fibre
>>>> module - these are easily available used on ebay and not expensive.
>>>> Turns out there aren't many wifi access points that will take a fibre
>>>> connection directly (the main ones are for big sites like stadiums
>>>> and so pricey).  But I found the Banana Pi R3 which is a $100 router
>>>> board running OpenWRT with decent wifi 6 and 2x SFP cages...
>>>>
>>>> Maybe blown fibre would get around your bends?
>>>>
>>>> Normally they blow through bare fibre and terminate that end
>>>> afterwards.
>>>> Termination is a PITA and it's easier to use a pre-made termination,
>>>> but not sure if the fitting would blow through.  The ISPs are using
>>>> single mode fibre which is smaller but more finnicky to terminate,
>>>> I'd probably try multimode fibre which is easier to work with but
>>>> fatter - I don't know how well that would blow, would need
>>>> experimentation.
>>>>
>>>> I should probably just bit the bullet and dig some copper instead,
>>>> but the blown fibre idea is tempting...
>>>>
>>>> Theo
>>>
>>> White drain pipe about 40mm diameter - from a quick poke around with a
>>> tape measure under the stairs.
>>>
>>> I hope that it will be big enough but if the string snags and breaks
>>> I'm not sure how I could run more of anything through, with a few
>>> angled joints and about 6.8 metres under the house and another 2.5
>>> metres under the deck.
>>>
>>> So I think it comes down to gentle easing of a stronger cord along
>>> from the house end and then using that to pull Ethernet cable through.
>>> It either works or it doesn't.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave R
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Try feeding through fish tape from one end to the other rather than
>> risk string breaking or losing whatever you had tied to end of string?
>
>
> p.s. like this item:
>
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/c-k-steel-draw-tape-30m-1200-/2418x
>
> hopefully 30 m is long enough for you?

I do have some similar things, but I'm not convinced that it will
negotiate multiple right angle bends.

The run could be up to 25 metres.

Item of last resort, I think.

Vacuum cleaners and plastic bags are an interesting thought assuming there
is a reasonably airtight seal.

Think the pipe may be push fit not solvent weld.

As mentioned up thread the bit under the house is the main concern.
The pipework in the trench down the back garden can be excavated and done
in sections.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64