I saw this interesting piece of information recently:

'If the option "Insert area code for outgoing calls" is shown, you can
enable it. The area code is then automatically added when you make
calls to numbers that do not begin with "0", so you do not have to
enter it.
https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-Box-7490/32_Configuring-internet-telephone-numbers-in-FRITZ-Box/
I suppose this is known to the experts here but I thought it was a
very useful discovery.

On Mon 06/11/2023 09:53, Scott wrote:
> I saw this interesting piece of information recently:
>
> 'If the option "Insert area code for outgoing calls" is shown, you can
> enable it. The area code is then automatically added when you make
> calls to numbers that do not begin with "0", so you do not have to
> enter it.
> https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-Box-7490/32_Configuring-internet-telephone-numbers-in-FRITZ-Box/
> I suppose this is known to the experts here but I thought it was a
> very useful discovery.

Hmm, not quite. You only want your local area code inserted if the first
digit is in the range 2-8. You don't want your local code inserted if
you are dialling 111 for instance, and neither should it be inserted if
you are dialling 999. This however presents another problem as, because
there is a shortage of numbers, local numbers are now starting with 9
also. When this started in Bradford a decade or so ago locals had to
dial the local area code in front of the number beginning with 9. For
example Zen Internet have numbers beginning 90, but if you live in
Rochdale where they are situated you have to dial 01706 90nnnn to
connect, but you don't want it to dial 01706 999 which will fail as you
have not dialled enough digits.

The simple answer is to get into the habit of dialling ALL numbers with
the full code at the front even if it is a local number. You do it on
your mobile, and when we all have digital voice in a couple of years
there will no longer be 'local' numbers per se so you will always have
to use the dialling code in front of the number no matter where you are
calling to or from.

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 10:49:18 +0000, Woody wrote:

> On Mon 06/11/2023 09:53, Scott wrote:
>> I saw this interesting piece of information recently:
>>
>> 'If the option "Insert area code for outgoing calls" is shown, you can
>> enable it. The area code is then automatically added when you make
>> calls to numbers that do not begin with "0", so you do not have to
>> enter it.
>> https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-
Box-7490/32_Configuring-internet-telephone-numbers-in-FRITZ-Box/
>> I suppose this is known to the experts here but I thought it was a very
>> useful discovery.
>
>
> Hmm, not quite. You only want your local area code inserted if the first
> digit is in the range 2-8. You don't want your local code inserted if
> you are dialling 111 for instance, and neither should it be inserted if
> you are dialling 999. This however presents another problem as, because
> there is a shortage of numbers, local numbers are now starting with 9
> also. When this started in Bradford a decade or so ago locals had to
> dial the local area code in front of the number beginning with 9.

Exactly. When I was setting up our Asterisk dialplan, I encountered this.

The crude but effective solution I adopted was to check the length of the
dialled number. All of our local numbers are 6 digits in length, so 6
digit numbers have the local code added to the front.

On Mon 06/11/2023 11:53, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 10:49:18 +0000, Woody wrote:
>
>> On Mon 06/11/2023 09:53, Scott wrote:
>>> I saw this interesting piece of information recently:
>>>
>>> 'If the option "Insert area code for outgoing calls" is shown, you can
>>> enable it. The area code is then automatically added when you make
>>> calls to numbers that do not begin with "0", so you do not have to
>>> enter it.
>>> https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-
> Box-7490/32_Configuring-internet-telephone-numbers-in-FRITZ-Box/
>>> I suppose this is known to the experts here but I thought it was a very
>>> useful discovery.
>>
>>
>> Hmm, not quite. You only want your local area code inserted if the first
>> digit is in the range 2-8. You don't want your local code inserted if
>> you are dialling 111 for instance, and neither should it be inserted if
>> you are dialling 999. This however presents another problem as, because
>> there is a shortage of numbers, local numbers are now starting with 9
>> also. When this started in Bradford a decade or so ago locals had to
>> dial the local area code in front of the number beginning with 9.
>
> Exactly. When I was setting up our Asterisk dialplan, I encountered this.
>
> The crude but effective solution I adopted was to check the length of the
> dialled number. All of our local numbers are 6 digits in length, so 6
> digit numbers have the local code added to the front.

But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre and your 'local'
exchange might be 50-100 miles away, there will no longer be any such
thing as a 'local' number and you will have to precede what is today the
'local' number with the full area dialling code.

So why not do away with you 'local' number now and get into the habit of
dialling the full code+number on every call? After all you dial the full
code+number on your mobile so why not your voip or landline as well?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I saw this interesting piece of information recently:
>
> 'If the option "Insert area code for outgoing calls" is shown, you can
> enable it. The area code is then automatically added when you make
> calls to numbers that do not begin with "0", so you do not have to
> enter it.
> https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-Box-7490/32_Configuring-internet-telephone-numbers-in-FRITZ-Box/
> I suppose this is known to the experts here but I thought it was a
> very useful discovery.

That's not really good enough, because you also don't want it for numbers
starting '1', like 101, 111 etc, or 999. Maybe it's good enough for
Germany. (I'm guesing the box must have an exception for 112, or does that
not work on German landlines?)

Many VOIP boxes can do it, but they have a proper dialplan where you can
configure the pattern to be something like:

IF starts with '2' to '8' OR (starts with '9' AND second digit not '9') ...

Theo

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 12:08:07 +0000, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Mon 06/11/2023 11:53, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 10:49:18 +0000, Woody wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon 06/11/2023 09:53, Scott wrote:
>>>> I saw this interesting piece of information recently:
>>>>
>>>> 'If the option "Insert area code for outgoing calls" is shown, you can
>>>> enable it. The area code is then automatically added when you make
>>>> calls to numbers that do not begin with "0", so you do not have to
>>>> enter it.
>>>> https://en.avm.de/service/knowledge-base/dok/FRITZ-
>> Box-7490/32_Configuring-internet-telephone-numbers-in-FRITZ-Box/
>>>> I suppose this is known to the experts here but I thought it was a very
>>>> useful discovery.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm, not quite. You only want your local area code inserted if the first
>>> digit is in the range 2-8. You don't want your local code inserted if
>>> you are dialling 111 for instance, and neither should it be inserted if
>>> you are dialling 999. This however presents another problem as, because
>>> there is a shortage of numbers, local numbers are now starting with 9
>>> also. When this started in Bradford a decade or so ago locals had to
>>> dial the local area code in front of the number beginning with 9.
>>
>> Exactly. When I was setting up our Asterisk dialplan, I encountered this.
>>
>> The crude but effective solution I adopted was to check the length of the
>> dialled number. All of our local numbers are 6 digits in length, so 6
>> digit numbers have the local code added to the front.
>
>But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre and your 'local'
>exchange might be 50-100 miles away, there will no longer be any such
>thing as a 'local' number and you will have to precede what is today the
>'local' number with the full area dialling code.

Well, (most of) the existing local numbers will remain. I live in 0141
so an ability to imply the area code into these numbers would be
helpful at least during the transition.
>
>So why not do away with you 'local' number now and get into the habit of
>dialling the full code+number on every call? After all you dial the full
>code+number on your mobile so why not your voip or landline as well?

Probably the way to go. I assume you could add 0141 as a favourite and
press it before 'dialling' local numbers. At the moment I have 020 as
a favourite to precede any London numbers.
>

Theo wrote:

> you also don't want it for numbers
> starting '1', like 101, 111 etc, or 999. Maybe it's good enough for
> Germany. (I'm guesing the box must have an exception for 112, or does that
> not work on German landlines?)

112 should be pan-european.

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 13:18:00 +0000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Theo wrote:
>
>> you also don't want it for numbers
>> starting '1', like 101, 111 etc, or 999. Maybe it's good enough for
>> Germany. (I'm guesing the box must have an exception for 112, or does that
>> not work on German landlines?)
>
>112 should be pan-european.

Including the Brexit nations I assume?

Scott wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> 112 should be pan-european.
>
> Including the Brexit nations I assume?

The <https://eena.org> website says

"The common European emergency number 112 is available
in the following European countries: All EU Member-States,
Albania, Georgia, Moldova, Iceland, North Macedonia, Montenegro,
Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia, Switzerland, Turkey, UK."

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> 112 should be pan-european.
>>
>> Including the Brexit nations I assume?
>
> The <https://eena.org> website says
>
> "The common European emergency number 112 is available
> in the following European countries: All EU Member-States,
> Albania, Georgia, Moldova, Iceland, North Macedonia, Montenegro,
> Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia, Switzerland, Turkey, UK."
>

And on a mobile phone handset 112 (and 911) will always establish an
emergency call regardless of which country you are in. (It is a common
misconception that dialling these digits will cause those numbers to be
passed on to the network.) A UK handset with a UK SIM will also establish
an emergency call when 999 is keyed, regardless of the country you are in.

On Mon 06/11/2023 18:31, Tweed wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> 112 should be pan-european.
>>>
>>> Including the Brexit nations I assume?
>>
>> The <https://eena.org> website says
>>
>> "The common European emergency number 112 is available
>> in the following European countries: All EU Member-States,
>> Albania, Georgia, Moldova, Iceland, North Macedonia, Montenegro,
>> Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia, Switzerland, Turkey, UK."
>>
>
> And on a mobile phone handset 112 (and 911) will always establish an
> emergency call regardless of which country you are in. (It is a common
> misconception that dialling these digits will cause those numbers to be
> passed on to the network.) A UK handset with a UK SIM will also establish
> an emergency call when 999 is keyed, regardless of the country you are in.
>

Not quite sure what the comment in brackets means re passing on the
numbers to the network.
When you dial the emergency number wherever you are, the phone does not
dial a number, it just initiates a call with a data flag set that
indicates an emergency call. If the phone has a SIM in it then the
mobile number should also be sent as will the GPS location if such is
available. Mind you if there is no SIM or you are using an emergency
call system in your vehicle which is equipped with an e-SIM, how they
call you back if they need to I have no idea!

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Mon 06/11/2023 18:31, Tweed wrote:
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 112 should be pan-european.
>>>>
>>>> Including the Brexit nations I assume?
>>>
>>> The <https://eena.org> website says
>>>
>>> "The common European emergency number 112 is available
>>> in the following European countries: All EU Member-States,
>>> Albania, Georgia, Moldova, Iceland, North Macedonia, Montenegro,
>>> Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia, Switzerland, Turkey, UK."
>>>
>>
>> And on a mobile phone handset 112 (and 911) will always establish an
>> emergency call regardless of which country you are in. (It is a common
>> misconception that dialling these digits will cause those numbers to be
>> passed on to the network.) A UK handset with a UK SIM will also establish
>> an emergency call when 999 is keyed, regardless of the country you are in.
>>
>
> Not quite sure what the comment in brackets means re passing on the
> numbers to the network.
> When you dial the emergency number wherever you are, the phone does not
> dial a number, it just initiates a call with a data flag set that
> indicates an emergency call. If the phone has a SIM in it then the
> mobile number should also be sent as will the GPS location if such is
> available. Mind you if there is no SIM or you are using an emergency
> call system in your vehicle which is equipped with an e-SIM, how they
> call you back if they need to I have no idea!
>
>

You’ve properly expressed my badly made point. Many people think a mobile
initiates an emergency call in the same way as a standard call, thus
confidently asserting that 999 or 112 won’t call the emergency services
when you take your mobile to, say, the USA. Likewise it is often
incorrectly asserted that 911 won’t get you the emergency operator in the
UK.

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 12:08:07 +0000, Woody wrote:

> But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre and your 'local'
> exchange might be 50-100 miles away, there will no longer be any such
> thing as a 'local' number and you will have to precede what is today the
> 'local' number with the full area dialling code.

I already have to do that for VoIP, hence having this in my VoIP PBX.

> So why not do away with you 'local' number now and get into the habit of
> dialling the full code+number on every call? After all you dial the full
> code+number on your mobile so why not your voip or landline as well?

Convenience. Most of the numbers I dial are 'local'.

If you wish, I can call them 'heavily used' instead.

If they aren't 'local' I have shortcodes for them anyway.

On Mon 06/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 12:08:07 +0000, Woody wrote:
>
>> But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre and your 'local'
>> exchange might be 50-100 miles away, there will no longer be any such
>> thing as a 'local' number and you will have to precede what is today the
>> 'local' number with the full area dialling code.
>
> I already have to do that for VoIP, hence having this in my VoIP PBX.
>
>> So why not do away with you 'local' number now and get into the habit of
>> dialling the full code+number on every call? After all you dial the full
>> code+number on your mobile so why not your voip or landline as well?
>
> Convenience. Most of the numbers I dial are 'local'.
>
> If you wish, I can call them 'heavily used' instead.
>
> If they aren't 'local' I have shortcodes for them anyway.

We changed our DECT phones earlier this year to a newer model of
Panasonic with which we are very happy.

However when I programmed the system with numbers of f&f so that they
didn't have to go through the nuisance call blocking process I entered
the full code+number. I have noticed (has indeed has SWMBO) that 'local'
calls now connect significantly more quickly than they do if you simply
dial the local number.

I would also note that that before we had this phone set the old kit
(also Panny) asked you to give your name which blocked pretty well all
spam calls albeit we didn't know about them. This system just asks you
to press 1 to continue the call, and even if the caller ends up being
blocked the CLI still shows the number that called (against a symbol
indicating the block had been applied.) The number of successful spam
calls is now essentially zero even though we do see maybe 2-3 a week
that have tried. Now if I could just manage to apply the same system to
my mobile.........

On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 07:36:05 +0000
Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> On Mon 06/11/2023 21:47, Bob Eager wrote:
> > On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 12:08:07 +0000, Woody wrote:
> >
> >> But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre and your
> >> 'local' exchange might be 50-100 miles away, there will no longer
> >> be any such thing as a 'local' number and you will have to precede
> >> what is today the 'local' number with the full area dialling
> >> code.
> >
> > I already have to do that for VoIP, hence having this in my VoIP
> > PBX.
> >> So why not do away with you 'local' number now and get into the
> >> habit of dialling the full code+number on every call? After all
> >> you dial the full code+number on your mobile so why not your voip
> >> or landline as well?
> >
> > Convenience. Most of the numbers I dial are 'local'.
> >
> > If you wish, I can call them 'heavily used' instead.
> >
> > If they aren't 'local' I have shortcodes for them anyway.
>
>
> We changed our DECT phones earlier this year to a newer model of
> Panasonic with which we are very happy.
>
> However when I programmed the system with numbers of f&f so that they
> didn't have to go through the nuisance call blocking process I
> entered the full code+number. I have noticed (has indeed has SWMBO)
> that 'local' calls now connect significantly more quickly than they
> do if you simply dial the local number.
>
> I would also note that that before we had this phone set the old kit
> (also Panny) asked you to give your name which blocked pretty well
> all spam calls albeit we didn't know about them. This system just
> asks you to press 1 to continue the call, and even if the caller ends
> up being blocked the CLI still shows the number that called (against
> a symbol indicating the block had been applied.) The number of
> successful spam calls is now essentially zero even though we do see
> maybe 2-3 a week that have tried. Now if I could just manage to apply
> the same system to my mobile.........
>
What is the model number of your new set? I currently have TGA850E
handsets, which are several years old.

You say that the new set still shows the number that called. This should
really be "the number that the caller wants me to think called",
shouldn't it?

The spam calls I get are 99% of the variety that asks me to press '1'
to talk to somebody, due to a suspicious purchase on my
Amazon/Paypal/etc card, but shortly after it realises that the answering
machine is taking the call, it drops the connection. The caller has even
spoofed a number from my local area code.
As I run the local oil syndicate, I am always receiving unknown calls
from local numbers, which is why I let unknown number calls go to the
answering machine.
--
Davey.

On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 07:36:05 +0000, Woody wrote:

> I would also note that that before we had this phone set the old kit
> (also Panny) asked you to give your name which blocked pretty well all
> spam calls albeit we didn't know about them. This system just asks you
> to press 1 to continue the call, and even if the caller ends up being
> blocked the CLI still shows the number that called (against a symbol
> indicating the block had been applied.) The number of successful spam
> calls is now essentially zero even though we do see maybe 2-3 a week
> that have tried.

The Asterisk box does that pretty successfully. If caller ID is withheld
(which is true in most cases of spam) the caller is put into a menu. At
that point they give up. Nothing rings in the house. Persistent offenders
enter a blacklist, and again nothing rings. It is down to about two or
three calls that get through, annually.

> Now if I could just manage to apply the same system to
> my mobile.........

The MrNumber app does that well for me.

On 07/11/2023 09:59, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 07:36:05 +0000, Woody wrote:
>
>> I would also note that that before we had this phone set the old kit
>> (also Panny) asked you to give your name which blocked pretty well all
>> spam calls albeit we didn't know about them. This system just asks you
>> to press 1 to continue the call, and even if the caller ends up being
>> blocked the CLI still shows the number that called (against a symbol
>> indicating the block had been applied.) The number of successful spam
>> calls is now essentially zero even though we do see maybe 2-3 a week
>> that have tried.
>
> The Asterisk box does that pretty successfully. If caller ID is withheld
> (which is true in most cases of spam) the caller is put into a menu.

I haven't had a spam call from "withheld" for as long as I remember. The
last few were, I think, from the NHS which were withheld because they
didn't want you to call back and shout at them, but they now seem to
have a dummy number.

> At
> that point they give up. Nothing rings in the house. Persistent offenders
> enter a blacklist, and again nothing rings. It is down to about two or
> three calls that get through, annually.
>

I now get about one a week...

>> Now if I could just manage to apply the same system to
>> my mobile.........
>
> The MrNumber app does that well for me.

Dave

More importantly this is about a very particular piece of SIP software
and not VOIP in general.

Jon

On 06/11/2023 09:53, Scott wrote:
> I saw this interesting piece of information recently:

On 06/11/2023 12:56, Scott wrote:

>
> Well, (most of) the existing local numbers will remain.
Yes but no.

In my area a number of years ago (in the 90s I think) Reading area codes
changed from 01734 to 0118 and a 9 was put in front of the number.

To this day I see the local Reading code presented as 01189. Which it
isn't !

It didn't matter for a few years, until new numbers started appearing
win the area with the format 0118 3xxx xxx.

So people start dialling 01189 3xxx xxxx with hilarious consequences.

Similar issues in the 0113/4/5/6/7 areas and 020, 023, 028 areas I'm sure.

Let's just consider all numbers are now 11 digit.

If they start 01 or 02 they are landlines

If they start 07 they are mobiles.

No one should care about their geographical location, and as pointed out
with VoIP they can be anywhere anyway.

On 06/11/2023 12:08, Woody wrote:

> But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre

That has _never_ been the plan. We will all have VoIP based landline
services (if we want them) from 2025/6 (although I do wonder), but
millions will still be on copper xDSL for a few more years beyond that,
probably some into the 2030s

On 08/11/2023 08:36, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 12:08, Woody wrote:
>
>> But as I said come 2025/26 when we are all on fibre
>
> That has _never_ been the plan. We will all have VoIP based landline
> services (if we want them) from 2025/6 (although I do wonder), but
> millions will still be on copper xDSL for a few more years beyond that,
> probably some into the 2030s
>
Yes.

The essence of the plan is to get rid of exchanges first, and powered
green boxes later on.

Getting rid of exchanges means VOIP and getting rid of landline
baseband telephony.

Getting rid of green boxes means FTTP.

I completely agree there will be powered green boxes into the 2030s
*unless* the government mandates a minimum of - say - 50Mbps ...

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

Mark Carver wrote:

> Let's just consider all numbers are now 11 digit.
> If they start 01 or 02 they are landlines
> If they start 07 they are mobiles.

Unless they're 070

On 08/11/2023 08:53, Andy Burns wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> Let's just consider all numbers are now 11 digit.
>> If they start 01 or 02 they are landlines
>> If they start 07 they are mobiles.
>
> Unless they're 070

Doh ! You're right.

Ofcom (who clearly have far too much time on their hands), have quite an
elaborate 'fake' numbering system for theatrical/film/TV use

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/information-for-industry/numbering/numbers-for-drama

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 08:32:59 +0000, Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com>
wrote:

[snip]
>Let's just consider all numbers are now 11 digit.

01524 (Lancaster) has 5 and 6 digit numbers, making total 10 or 11
digit.

>If they start 01 or 02 they are landlines
>
>If they start 07 they are mobiles.
>
>No one should care about their geographical location, and as pointed out
>with VoIP they can be anywhere anyway.

--
brightside S9

On Wed 08/11/2023 08:32, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 12:56, Scott wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, (most of) the existing local numbers will remain.
> Yes but no.
>
> In my area a number of years ago (in the 90s I think) Reading area codes
> changed from 01734 to 0118 and a 9 was put in front of the number.
>
> To this day I see the local Reading code presented as 01189. Which it
> isn't !
>
> It didn't matter for a few years, until new numbers started appearing
> win the area with the format  0118  3xxx xxx.
>
> So people start dialling 01189 3xxx xxxx with hilarious consequences.
>
> Similar issues in the 0113/4/5/6/7 areas and 020, 023, 028 areas I'm sure.
>
> Let's just consider all numbers are now 11 digit.
>
> If they start 01 or 02 they are landlines
>
> If they start 07 they are mobiles.
>
> No one should care about their geographical location, and as pointed out
> with VoIP they can be anywhere anyway.

And 03 can be either landline or virtual!

But 0800, 0844/45, 0870/1, 0344/5 and 0370/1 have some 10 digit
numbers........

And can't 00800 (international free numbers) have more than 11 digits.

\Pedant mode off.