First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when." Why
the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?

Having an idea it might be coming up to that time now I went online this
morning and saw "Thank you. Your Bill has been paid." I'd just been
looking at my Bank Account and hadn't noticed a payment to BT and there
wasn't enough in the account to cover the bill to-day so I went back to
the bank's website to check. No payment made to BT and no negative
"Balance including pending."

Back to BT where I find I have to download the bill in order to find out
when it was, or should be, paid. Why? Why can't they include that on
the webpage? So I download the bill and find that they will take
payment on 22 May! But they do say my bill has been paid and that I owe
them nothing. Does that mean that I can instruct my bank not to give
any of my money to BT on 22 May? No? I thought not!

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
a gribouillé dans la poussière...

>First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
>to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when." Why
>the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?
>
>Having an idea it might be coming up to that time now I went online this
>morning and saw "Thank you. Your Bill has been paid." I'd just been
>looking at my Bank Account and hadn't noticed a payment to BT and there
>wasn't enough in the account to cover the bill to-day so I went back to
>the bank's website to check. No payment made to BT and no negative
>"Balance including pending."

I gave up on BT years ago, soon after I moved in here. I needed broadband
and didn't want it from them, so switched to Plusnet - owned by BT but
generally easier to deal with (certainly easier then Sky who set the
bailiffs on me for no good reason).

Bulb used to send me a pdf of my bill so I didn't need to go online to
download it.
Octopus emailed me yesterday with a 'statement' of my electricity usage for
the past week - totally useless (no mention of gas usage) and pointless (my
billing date is 28th). I suppose this means the electricity side of my
smart meter is misbehaving again :(
>Back to BT where I find I have to download the bill in order to find out
>when it was, or should be, paid. Why? Why can't they include that on
>the webpage? So I download the bill and find that they will take
>payment on 22 May! But they do say my bill has been paid and that I owe
>them nothing. Does that mean that I can instruct my bank not to give
>any of my money to BT on 22 May? No? I thought not!

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>
>> First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
>> to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when." Why
>> the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?
>>
>> Having an idea it might be coming up to that time now I went online this
>> morning and saw "Thank you. Your Bill has been paid." I'd just been
>> looking at my Bank Account and hadn't noticed a payment to BT and there
>> wasn't enough in the account to cover the bill to-day so I went back to
>> the bank's website to check. No payment made to BT and no negative
>> "Balance including pending."
>
> I gave up on BT years ago, soon after I moved in here. I needed broadband
> and didn't want it from them, so switched to Plusnet - owned by BT but
> generally easier to deal with (certainly easier then Sky who set the
> bailiffs on me for no good reason).
>
> Bulb used to send me a pdf of my bill so I didn't need to go online to
> download it.
> Octopus emailed me yesterday with a 'statement' of my electricity usage for
> the past week - totally useless (no mention of gas usage) and pointless (my
> billing date is 28th). I suppose this means the electricity side of my
> smart meter is misbehaving again :(
>> Back to BT where I find I have to download the bill in order to find out
>> when it was, or should be, paid. Why? Why can't they include that on
>> the webpage? So I download the bill and find that they will take
>> payment on 22 May! But they do say my bill has been paid and that I owe
>> them nothing. Does that mean that I can instruct my bank not to give
>> any of my money to BT on 22 May? No? I thought not!
>

I think the so called ‘smart’ meters are revolting; I have had to wait
months for my electricity usage statement for January and February - the
smart meter refused to divulge readings for two days during that period and
thus no billing was carried out. It would appear that Octopus then got the
thumbscrews, dripping water, nail extractors etc. out to my SMETS1 until it
submitted.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 18/05/2023 12:24, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>>
>>> First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
>>> to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when." Why
>>> the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?
>>>
>>> Having an idea it might be coming up to that time now I went online this
>>> morning and saw "Thank you. Your Bill has been paid." I'd just been
>>> looking at my Bank Account and hadn't noticed a payment to BT and there
>>> wasn't enough in the account to cover the bill to-day so I went back to
>>> the bank's website to check. No payment made to BT and no negative
>>> "Balance including pending."
>>
>> I gave up on BT years ago, soon after I moved in here. I needed broadband
>> and didn't want it from them, so switched to Plusnet - owned by BT but
>> generally easier to deal with (certainly easier then Sky who set the
>> bailiffs on me for no good reason).
>>
>> Bulb used to send me a pdf of my bill so I didn't need to go online to
>> download it.
>> Octopus emailed me yesterday with a 'statement' of my electricity usage for
>> the past week - totally useless (no mention of gas usage) and pointless (my
>> billing date is 28th). I suppose this means the electricity side of my
>> smart meter is misbehaving again :(
>>> Back to BT where I find I have to download the bill in order to find out
>>> when it was, or should be, paid. Why? Why can't they include that on
>>> the webpage? So I download the bill and find that they will take
>>> payment on 22 May! But they do say my bill has been paid and that I owe
>>> them nothing. Does that mean that I can instruct my bank not to give
>>> any of my money to BT on 22 May? No? I thought not!
>>
>
> I think the so called ‘smart’ meters are revolting; I have had to wait
> months for my electricity usage statement for January and February - the
> smart meter refused to divulge readings for two days during that period and
> thus no billing was carried out. It would appear that Octopus then got the
> thumbscrews, dripping water, nail extractors etc. out to my SMETS1 until it
> submitted.
>

OVO have made a complete pig's dinner of my 'smart' meters. The
electricity bit of the in-house display stopped working towards the end
of last year after Scottish Power did something to the power supply, and
shortly afterwards the gas meter stopped transmitting too. I complained,
and a couple of months later the gas meter was exchanged but couldn't
talk to OVO or the display, and the electricity meter was pronounced
mute as well. That was in February. Since then I have spent HOURS on
phones and chatlines trying to organise replacements, and have been
getting down on my knees in the mud of the front garden to read the gas
meter and up on a ladder to read the electricity meter in order to keep
some coherence to my bills. Two missed and one arbitrarily re-arranged
appointments later, and I am expecting/not expecting them next Friday
fortnight to come and sort it all out.

I finally managed to speak to someone at the meter-co-ordinating company
who seemed to know what he was doing, and asked him if any other company
was better than OVO at doing these things in a timely and efficient
fashion.

No, he said, emphatically.

Bah

--
Kate B

In message <kcmi6lFah4eU3@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 18 May 2023
12:58:13, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>On 18/05/2023 12:24, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>>>
>>>> First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
>>>> to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when." Why
>>>> the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?

That seems ridiculous. (And IIRR, they won't send you a paper bill
without charging a significant amount extra, unless you're a "Basic"
customer. Not that the paper ones were at all easy to follow.)
[]
>>> I gave up on BT years ago, soon after I moved in here. I needed broadband
>>> and didn't want it from them, so switched to Plusnet - owned by BT but
>>> generally easier to deal with (certainly easier then Sky who set the
>>> bailiffs on me for no good reason).

Yes, I went to PlusNet when I first wanted broadband, and am still with
them. I find their service reasonable (probably because where I am,
they're just reselling the OpenReach product anyway), though of late
I've had to argue about my billing. But it has been sorted.
[]
>> I think the so called ‘smart’ meters are revolting; I have had to

What, you've heard that they are ganging up against us? Oh, as you were
....

>>wait
>> months for my electricity usage statement for January and February - the
>> smart meter refused to divulge readings for two days during that period and
>> thus no billing was carried out. It would appear that Octopus then got the
>> thumbscrews, dripping water, nail extractors etc. out to my SMETS1 until it
>> submitted.
>>
Did you know you can't have a smart meter for gas only? That's because
the gas one communicates only the short distance to the electric one, as
it has to work from a battery (which I think is supposed to last
something like ten years); it's the electric one (which obviously has
access to power) that sends in the readings (both of them).
[]
>been getting down on my knees in the mud of the front garden to read
>the gas meter and up on a ladder to read the electricity meter in order

I would have trouble: my "smart" gas meter has a blank display
(presumably to save battery). IIRR I can get it to display a reading
(presumably only for a little while) by pressing the buttons on its
keypad, but can't remember the magic sequence.

>to keep some coherence to my bills. Two missed and one arbitrarily
>re-arranged appointments later, and I am expecting/not expecting them
>next Friday fortnight to come and sort it all out.
>
>I finally managed to speak to someone at the meter-co-ordinating
>company who seemed to know what he was doing, and asked him if any
>other company was better than OVO at doing these things in a timely and
>efficient fashion.
>
>No, he said, emphatically.
>
>Bah
>
>
Not that it helps you (you still need a working meter!), but I get the
impression that a lot of the problems people have with gas and
electricity suppliers, where they pay by direct debit (I'm still cross
that they penalise people who don't pay by DD by far more than any extra
cost justifies, but that's another matter), is that they've accepted the
concept of a fixed amount, to (allegedly) even out the summer/winter
variation. I pay by DD, but - I think they'll all allow this, but you
have to ask for it, and expect resistance - I pay each month for what
I've used. On the whole, I've not had much problem.

(Of course, where you _do_ pay some "in advance", it'd be far more
sensible, IMO, if what you paid in advance was for kWh, not pounds.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Hadrian's Wall has never been a border between Scotland and England. It lies
entirely within England but, when it was built in AD 122 by the Romans as a
defence against the raiding Picts, the future English were still in Germany
and the Scottish were still in Ireland.
- Michael Cullen, Skye, in RT 2014/12/6-12

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <kcmi6lFah4eU3@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 18 May 2023
> 12:58:13, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>> On 18/05/2023 12:24, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>>> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>>>>
>>>>> First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
>>>>> to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when." Why
>>>>> the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?
>
> That seems ridiculous. (And IIRR, they won't send you a paper bill
> without charging a significant amount extra, unless you're a "Basic"
> customer. Not that the paper ones were at all easy to follow.)
> []
>>>> I gave up on BT years ago, soon after I moved in here. I needed broadband
>>>> and didn't want it from them, so switched to Plusnet - owned by BT but
>>>> generally easier to deal with (certainly easier then Sky who set the
>>>> bailiffs on me for no good reason).
>
> Yes, I went to PlusNet when I first wanted broadband, and am still with
> them. I find their service reasonable (probably because where I am,
> they're just reselling the OpenReach product anyway), though of late
> I've had to argue about my billing. But it has been sorted.
> []
>>> I think the so called ‘smart’ meters are revolting; I have had to
>
> What, you've heard that they are ganging up against us? Oh, as you were
> ...
>
>>> wait
>>> months for my electricity usage statement for January and February - the
>>> smart meter refused to divulge readings for two days during that period and
>>> thus no billing was carried out. It would appear that Octopus then got the
>>> thumbscrews, dripping water, nail extractors etc. out to my SMETS1 until it
>>> submitted.
>>>
> Did you know you can't have a smart meter for gas only? That's because
> the gas one communicates only the short distance to the electric one, as
> it has to work from a battery (which I think is supposed to last
> something like ten years); it's the electric one (which obviously has
> access to power) that sends in the readings (both of them).
> []
>> been getting down on my knees in the mud of the front garden to read
>> the gas meter and up on a ladder to read the electricity meter in order
>
> I would have trouble: my "smart" gas meter has a blank display
> (presumably to save battery). IIRR I can get it to display a reading
> (presumably only for a little while) by pressing the buttons on its
> keypad, but can't remember the magic sequence.
>
>> to keep some coherence to my bills. Two missed and one arbitrarily
>> re-arranged appointments later, and I am expecting/not expecting them
>> next Friday fortnight to come and sort it all out.
>>
>> I finally managed to speak to someone at the meter-co-ordinating
>> company who seemed to know what he was doing, and asked him if any
>> other company was better than OVO at doing these things in a timely and
>> efficient fashion.
>>
>> No, he said, emphatically.
>>
>> Bah
>>
>>
> Not that it helps you (you still need a working meter!), but I get the
> impression that a lot of the problems people have with gas and
> electricity suppliers, where they pay by direct debit (I'm still cross
> that they penalise people who don't pay by DD by far more than any extra
> cost justifies, but that's another matter), is that they've accepted the
> concept of a fixed amount, to (allegedly) even out the summer/winter
> variation. I pay by DD, but - I think they'll all allow this, but you
> have to ask for it, and expect resistance - I pay each month for what
> I've used. On the whole, I've not had much problem.
>
> (Of course, where you _do_ pay some "in advance", it'd be far more
> sensible, IMO, if what you paid in advance was for kWh, not pounds.)

With reference to nugger all above, we have now reached the point (for the
next few months anyway) where we are exporting more electrical energy than
we are using [not that difficult somedays as our grid usage has been nil
several days thanks to the battery holding enough reserve for domestic
needs minus any space heating!] the solar PV has charged the Powerwall
battery during the earlier part of the day, then our domestic hot water
system has charged to full capacity, we have done our cooking, washing,
tumble drying etc. then the surplus is sent to the grid for Octopus Energy
to credit us for - this is being ‘squirrelled away’ for the upcoming winter
consumption of an all-electric household. As Jpeg mentions though we are
credited with £s rather than Kilowatts - which would be better as I doubt
the price will drop somehow!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:24:02 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
<toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:

>Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>>
>>
>>
>
>I think the so called ‘smart’ meters are revolting; I have had to wait
>months for my electricity usage statement for January and February - the
>smart meter refused to divulge readings for two days during that period and
>thus no billing was carried out. It would appear that Octopus then got the
>thumbscrews, dripping water, nail extractors etc. out to my SMETS1 until it
>submitted.

I was so keen a few years ago to get a smart meter. To be in with the
cool kids and ahead in tech. They were not vailable yet on bulb in my
area and I got onthe list to get one when they were. I kept hearing
radio ads to get one too. But then they turned out not to be suitable
for my gas meter cover and I never got one and after the dispute over
bills and resorting to the omsbudsman I'm glad. And I cancelled the DD
months ago and just pay what is due. Which contintues with the
transfer to Octopus.

On 18-May-23 12:58, Kate B wrote:
> On 18/05/2023 12:24, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:16:23 +0100, Jenny M Benson
>>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>>> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>>>
>>>> First of all BT send an e-mail saying "your bill is ready but you have
>>>> to go online to see how much money we're going to take and when."  Why
>>>> the heck can't they tell me that in the e-mail?
>>>>
>>>> Having an idea it might be coming up to that time now I went online
>>>> this
>>>> morning and saw "Thank you.  Your Bill has been paid."  I'd just been
>>>> looking at my Bank Account and hadn't noticed a payment to BT and there
>>>> wasn't enough in the account to cover the bill to-day so I went back to
>>>> the bank's website to check.  No payment made to BT and no negative
>>>> "Balance including pending."
>>>
>>> I gave up on BT years ago, soon after I moved in here. I needed
>>> broadband
>>> and didn't want it from them, so switched to Plusnet - owned by BT but
>>> generally easier to deal with (certainly easier then Sky who set the
>>> bailiffs on me for no good reason).
>>>
>>> Bulb used to send me a pdf of my bill so I didn't need to go online to
>>> download it.
>>> Octopus emailed me yesterday with a 'statement' of my electricity
>>> usage for
>>> the past week - totally useless (no mention of gas usage) and
>>> pointless (my
>>> billing date is 28th). I suppose this means the electricity side of my
>>> smart meter is misbehaving again :(
>>>> Back to BT where I find I have to download the bill in order to find
>>>> out
>>>> when it was, or should be, paid.  Why?  Why can't they include that on
>>>> the webpage?  So I download the bill and find that they will take
>>>> payment on 22 May!  But they do say my bill has been paid and that I
>>>> owe
>>>> them nothing.  Does that mean that I can instruct my bank not to give
>>>> any of my money to BT on 22 May?  No?  I thought not!
>>>
>>
>> I think the so called ‘smart’ meters are revolting; I have had to wait
>> months for my electricity usage statement for January and February - the
>> smart meter refused to divulge readings for two days during that
>> period and
>> thus no billing was carried out. It would appear that Octopus then got
>> the
>> thumbscrews, dripping water, nail extractors etc. out to my SMETS1
>> until it
>> submitted.
>>
>
> OVO have made a complete pig's dinner of my 'smart' meters. The
> electricity bit of the in-house display stopped working towards the end
> of last year after Scottish Power did something to the power supply, and
> shortly afterwards the gas meter stopped transmitting too. I complained,
> and a couple of months later the gas meter was exchanged but couldn't
> talk to OVO or the display, and the electricity meter was pronounced
> mute as well. That was in February. Since then I have spent HOURS on
> phones and chatlines trying to organise replacements, and have been
> getting down on my knees in the mud of the front garden to read the gas
> meter and up on a ladder to read the electricity meter in order to keep
> some coherence to my bills. Two missed and one arbitrarily re-arranged
> appointments later, and I am expecting/not expecting them next Friday
> fortnight to come and sort it all out.
>
> I finally managed to speak to someone at the meter-co-ordinating company
> who seemed to know what he was doing, and asked him if any other company
> was better than OVO at doing these things in a timely and efficient
> fashion.
>
> No, he said, emphatically.
>
> Bah

We have 'dumb' meters, and I'm quite content to read them once a month &
supply those numbers to Octopus. That way I am 'in control' and the
utility company would have to become pretty creative to screw things up.

To date, no utility company has managed that degree of creativity.

Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot
control things & I expect to experience the level of embuggerance that
others here have to put up with.

Ask me if I am looking forward to that.

--
Sam Plusnet

In message <tAw9M.1947547$MVg8.994056@fx12.iad> at Thu, 18 May 2023
22:16:09, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
[]
>Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot

I fear you are right - though I think at present, it has been
established that no-one can be forced to have one. But I bet they'll
change the law over that (probably by a "Statutory Instrument", so it
doesn't get discussed: OfCom like those, so I expect OfGen do too).

>control things & I expect to experience the level of embuggerance that
>others here have to put up with.
>
>Ask me if I am looking forward to that.
>
Not just can't control things over billing: they can also cut you off
remotely. Yes, at present they (I think) need a court order (though I
bet there have been examples of them doing it without one), but the
_technical_ ability is there once you have a SM, and again it only needs
a tweak to the regulations to let them do it without any controls.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"In the _car_-park? What are you doing there?" "Parking cars, what else does
one
do in a car-park?" (First series, fit the fifth.)

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <tAw9M.1947547$MVg8.994056@fx12.iad> at Thu, 18 May 2023
> 22:16:09, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
> []
>> Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot
>
> I fear you are right - though I think at present, it has been
> established that no-one can be forced to have one. But I bet they'll
> change the law over that (probably by a "Statutory Instrument", so it
> doesn't get discussed: OfCom like those, so I expect OfGen do too).
>
>> control things & I expect to experience the level of embuggerance that
>> others here have to put up with.
>>
>> Ask me if I am looking forward to that.
>>
> Not just can't control things over billing: they can also cut you off
> remotely. Yes, at present they (I think) need a court order (though I
> bet there have been examples of them doing it without one), but the
> _technical_ ability is there once you have a SM, and again it only needs
> a tweak to the regulations to let them do it without any controls.

Thinks… I wonder if they could still make that change if I went off -grid?
Not that there would be any point I realise…

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 19/05/2023 00:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <tAw9M.1947547$MVg8.994056@fx12.iad> at Thu, 18 May 2023
> 22:16:09, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
> []
>> Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot
>
> I fear you are right - though I think at present, it has been
> established that no-one can be forced to have one. But I bet they'll
> change the law over that (probably by a "Statutory Instrument", so it
> doesn't get discussed: OfCom like those, so I expect OfGen do too).

There will be some dwellings where it's impossible. In my old house in
London the electricity came in on one side and the gas on the other, the
meters were separated by a number of very solid walls and both were in
the basement with no signal. We gaily said 'of course' whenever the PTB
said you must have a smart meter (usually in order to access some deal)
knowing that it would be impossible.

In this house in Edinburgh I inherited smart meters, so not much I could
do about it. Also, reading them is a pain, as recounted above somewhere.

--
Kate B

Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/05/2023 00:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <tAw9M.1947547$MVg8.994056@fx12.iad> at Thu, 18 May 2023
>> 22:16:09, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>> []
>>> Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot
>>
>> I fear you are right - though I think at present, it has been
>> established that no-one can be forced to have one. But I bet they'll
>> change the law over that (probably by a "Statutory Instrument", so it
>> doesn't get discussed: OfCom like those, so I expect OfGen do too).
>
> There will be some dwellings where it's impossible. In my old house in
> London the electricity came in on one side and the gas on the other, the
> meters were separated by a number of very solid walls and both were in
> the basement with no signal. We gaily said 'of course' whenever the PTB
> said you must have a smart meter (usually in order to access some deal)
> knowing that it would be impossible.
>
> In this house in Edinburgh I inherited smart meters, so not much I could
> do about it. Also, reading them is a pain, as recounted above somewhere.
>

I have requested the little gadget from Octopus Energy ( a ‘mini’ something
or other) that will enable me to read my electricity import and export on
my tablet / phone and this updates every ten seconds or thereabouts. The
mini connects to my SMETS1 meter and sends details to OE and then, via the
OE app., I can read the details on my tablet etc.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:05:24 +0100, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk> a
gribouillé dans la poussière...

>On 19/05/2023 00:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <tAw9M.1947547$MVg8.994056@fx12.iad> at Thu, 18 May 2023
>> 22:16:09, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>> []
>>> Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot

I like having a smart meter, the IHD shows me how much the roof is
generating on a sunny day, so I know when best to run the washing machine,
dishwasher, or batch cooking oven.

>> I fear you are right - though I think at present, it has been
>> established that no-one can be forced to have one. But I bet they'll
>> change the law over that (probably by a "Statutory Instrument", so it
>> doesn't get discussed: OfCom like those, so I expect OfGen do too).
>
>There will be some dwellings where it's impossible. In my old house in
>London the electricity came in on one side and the gas on the other, the
>meters were separated by a number of very solid walls and both were in
>the basement with no signal. We gaily said 'of course' whenever the PTB
>said you must have a smart meter (usually in order to access some deal)
>knowing that it would be impossible.
>
>In this house in Edinburgh I inherited smart meters, so not much I could
>do about it. Also, reading them is a pain, as recounted above somewhere.

In theory, the easiest way to read the meters is on the IHD. In practice,
this only works if both meters are talking to it. The gas meter is easy to
read, regardless, the electric meter, not so much. The buttons you need to
press are not as obvious on mine, so it can take a while, squatting down
next to the thing, waiting for it to reset for another try.

When mine broke (electric stopped sending anything) about 4 months in, I
sent monthly readings through the summer, but stopped when the weather
changed. The most annoying thing was their insistence that no one else was
having this problem, implying it was somehow my fault.

That was Bulb - Octopus are more honest about it but that's why they send
me frequent pointless statements.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

In message <u47b24$k9fm$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 19 May 2023 08:12:53,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
[]
>I have requested the little gadget from Octopus Energy ( a ‘mini’ something
>or other) that will enable me to read my electricity import and export on
>my tablet / phone and this updates every ten seconds or thereabouts. The
>mini connects to my SMETS1 meter and sends details to OE and then, via the
>OE app., I can read the details on my tablet etc.
>
I think the _gas_ side updated no more than every 30 seconds if that:
since it has to run from a 10-year battery, they minimise the frequency
of the updates.

(I imagine in most cases, that's more than adequate: your gas "load"
isn't going to vary very fast, compared to you electric one, for most
people.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I don't like activity holidays. I like /inactivity/ holidays.
- Miriam Margolyes, RT 2017/4/15-21

On 18/05/2023 16:18, Mike McMillan wrote:
>
> With reference to nugger all above, we have now reached the point (for the
> next few months anyway) where we are exporting more electrical energy than
> we are using [not that difficult somedays as our grid usage has been nil
> several days thanks to the battery holding enough reserve for domestic
> needs minus any space heating!] the solar PV has charged the Powerwall
> battery during the earlier part of the day, then our domestic hot water
> system has charged to full capacity, we have done our cooking, washing,
> tumble drying etc. then the surplus is sent to the grid for Octopus Energy
> to credit us for - this is being ‘squirrelled away’ for the upcoming winter
> consumption of an all-electric household. As Jpeg mentions though we are
> credited with £s rather than Kilowatts - which would be better as I doubt
> the price will drop somehow!
>

I wouldn't be too sure about that - a lot of electricity is generated
from gas and the price of that has dropped considerably. Diesel also -
now back to prices from a couple of years ago round here.

Do you still need space heating ? Our CH has only been coming on
briefly at 7.30, so we turned it off completely earlier this week.
Surprised you still need it with your triple glazing and extra insulation.

PS Glad your system is working to your satisfaction, but please remind
us again how many 10s of 1000s of £ the new windows, insulation,
battery, ASHP and solar panels cost ?

On 19/05/2023 08:15, Mike McMillan wrote:
>
> Thinks… I wonder if they could still make that change if I went off -grid?
> Not that there would be any point I realise…
>
I think with the Tesla Powerwall it all still works [1] if the grid
connection is down unlike with some battery systems unless you pay extra
for that facility.

[1] assuming the battery is charged of course.

On 19/05/2023 09:12, Mike McMillan wrote:
>
> I have requested the little gadget from Octopus Energy ( a ‘mini’ something
> or other) that will enable me to read my electricity import and export on
> my tablet / phone and this updates every ten seconds or thereabouts.

We've had that courtesy our solar pannels and Solar Edge website/app for
4 years now. There's a spot display that updates every few seconds with
actual values, but they're only logged every 10 to 15 minutes.

Logs are kept for at least 3 years - that's the data I used to do the
battery sizing estimate that concluded I would get 80 of the savings
possible with a 2kWH battery and only need a 4kWh battery to get 100%.

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <u47b24$k9fm$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 19 May 2023 08:12:53,
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
> []
>> I have requested the little gadget from Octopus Energy ( a ‘mini’ something
>> or other) that will enable me to read my electricity import and export on
>> my tablet / phone and this updates every ten seconds or thereabouts. The
>> mini connects to my SMETS1 meter and sends details to OE and then, via the
>> OE app., I can read the details on my tablet etc.
>>
> I think the _gas_ side updated no more than every 30 seconds if that:
> since it has to run from a 10-year battery, they minimise the frequency
> of the updates.
>
> (I imagine in most cases, that's more than adequate: your gas "load"
> isn't going to vary very fast, compared to you electric one, for most
> people.)

Our gas consumption is quite constant at 0.000 kW/h per year! (Meter went
to Octopus recycle yard a few months ago when we went gasless.;-))) )

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

BrritSki <RtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I wouldn't be too sure about that - a lot of electricity is generated
> from gas and the price of that has dropped considerably. Diesel also -
> now back to prices from a couple of years ago round here.
Has your energy price dropped yet?
>
> Do you still need space heating ? Our CH has only been coming on
> briefly at 7.30, so we turned it off completely earlier this week.
> Surprised you still need it with your triple glazing and extra insulation.
No, heating is orff.
>
> PS Glad your system is working to your satisfaction, but please remind
> us again how many 10s of 1000s of £ the new windows, insulation,
> battery, ASHP and solar panels cost ?
>
It is not all about cost alone Britters. I think you see it as a
spreadsheet exercise but I also think about the planet and global warming -
you do too don’t you?

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

BrritSki <RtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19/05/2023 08:15, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>
>> Thinks… I wonder if they could still make that change if I went off -grid?
>> Not that there would be any point I realise…
>>
> I think with the Tesla Powerwall it all still works [1] if the grid
> connection is down unlike with some battery systems unless you pay extra
> for that facility.
>
> [1] assuming the battery is charged of course.
>
>

Yes, it does, the Tesla Gateway constantly monitors the grid status and (as
you so rightly say) if the Powerwall has energy in it, it will allow the
system to ‘Island’, isolate the whole Toodle home from the grid and carry
on supplying our needs up to the capacity of the battery charge. [When new,
that stated capacity of a fully charged Powerwall 2 is 13.5 kW/h.]

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

BrritSki <RtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19/05/2023 09:12, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>
>> I have requested the little gadget from Octopus Energy ( a ‘mini’ something
>> or other) that will enable me to read my electricity import and export on
>> my tablet / phone and this updates every ten seconds or thereabouts.
>
> We've had that courtesy our solar pannels and Solar Edge website/app for
> 4 years now. There's a spot display that updates every few seconds with
> actual values, but they're only logged every 10 to 15 minutes.
>
> Logs are kept for at least 3 years - that's the data I used to do the
> battery sizing estimate that concluded I would get 80 of the savings
> possible with a 2kWH battery and only need a 4kWh battery to get 100%.
>
>
>

We have the Emphase and Tesla apps which enable us to see what is coming
from the sky and what we are consuming and possibly charging and / or
exporting to the grid. The Octopus ‘mini’ will be informative as they see a
different amount of exported energy to that indicated by either of our
existing apps, (in our favour I might add).

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 19/05/2023 09:05, Kate B wrote:
> On 19/05/2023 00:55, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <tAw9M.1947547$MVg8.994056@fx12.iad> at Thu, 18 May 2023
>> 22:16:09, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>> []
>>> Eventually, we will be forced to have smart meters - and then I cannot
>>
>> I fear you are right - though I think at present, it has been
>> established that no-one can be forced to have one. But I bet they'll
>> change the law over that (probably by a "Statutory Instrument", so it
>> doesn't get discussed: OfCom like those, so I expect OfGen do too).
>
> There will be some dwellings where it's impossible. In my old house in
> London the electricity came in on one side and the gas on the other, the
> meters were separated by a number of very solid walls and both were in
> the basement with no signal. We gaily said 'of course' whenever the PTB
> said you must have a smart meter (usually in order to access some deal)
> knowing that it would be impossible.
>
> In this house in Edinburgh I inherited smart meters, so not much I could
> do about it. Also, reading them is a pain, as recounted above somewhere.
>
We used to get regular emails from Plusnet extolling the virtues of a
smartmeter. When I eventually crumbled and said ok, we'll have one,
there was a rapid response. Sorry, not available in your location.
Steve

On 19/05/2023 11:27, Mike McMillan wrote:
> BrritSki <RtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I wouldn't be too sure about that - a lot of electricity is generated
>> from gas and the price of that has dropped considerably. Diesel also -
>> now back to prices from a couple of years ago round here.
> Has your energy price dropped yet?
>>

No, but I expect it to, not least because Bulb/Octopus are happy 1ith my
£90 DD despite me having just gone into debit with them. I think that is
very optimistic unless the gas and electricity prices are going to drop.
Or maybe Bulb don;t care any more as I will be transferring to Octopus.
I'm not banking on it but I think it will happen.
>>
>> PS Glad your system is working to your satisfaction, but please remind
>> us again how many 10s of 1000s of £ the new windows, insulation,
>> battery, ASHP and solar panels cost ?
>>
> It is not all about cost alone Britters. I think you see it as a
> spreadsheet exercise but I also think about the planet and global warming -
> you do too don’t you?
>

Of course, I think about it a lot and I've studied the subject
extensively for many years and read widely about it, but not just the
Catastrophists.

I completely accept that the planet is warming (just as it did in
Minoan, Roman and medieval times, at least as warm) and that there's an
anthropogenic element to it. However nobody knows what the ECS is (even
after decades of research) or how much warming there actually is when
you discount UHI effects, "adjustment" of historic records (always down
so the present seems warmer) and the switch to temperature probes which
provide instant readings and run at least half a degree warmer than
mercury thermometers. There is also the question of saturation of the IR
absorption bands.

I don't accept consensus science and the lack of scepticism of CAGW
adherents. I do believe in science which means making a hypothesis and
then testing it e.g. where is the troposphoric hot spot ? Why do all
the models run hotter than the measured temperature ?

So much more that could be said e.g. on misuse of statistics to generate
hockey sticks, but I'll close by saying that net zero is literally
unachievable even if you forget about the extra electricity needed for
EVs and changes to home heating. Wind and solar is at or near its
saturation point, not least because there is nowhere to store the excess
energy for dark windless periods. Nuclear could be the answer, but not
in the net-zero timescale. The other technologies that the NZ fantasists
rely on simply do not exist like CCS at scale.

In view of this I'll stick to my spreadsheet thanks and conclude that
even saving 100% of my energy bill saving it would take me multiple
decades to recoup the costs of implementation, by which time several of
the elements would need replacement any way (heat pumps are notoriously
short-lived and batteries and solar panels don;t go on for ever either).
And I'll also think of the benefit to the planet of not using
child/slave labour to make the panels and mining all those elements
needed to make the batteries.

PS If you don't recognise the acronyms I'm using and concepts I'm
referring to, do some reading with an open mind and get back to me.
You could start with
https://clintel.org/thorough-analysis-by-clintel-shows-serious-errors-in-latest-ipcc-report/

and download the full report.

BrritSki <RtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19/05/2023 11:27, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> BrritSki <RtilburyTAKEAWAY@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be too sure about that - a lot of electricity is generated
>>> from gas and the price of that has dropped considerably. Diesel also -
>>> now back to prices from a couple of years ago round here.
>> Has your energy price dropped yet?
>>>
>
> No, but I expect it to, not least because Bulb/Octopus are happy 1ith my
> £90 DD despite me having just gone into debit with them. I think that is
> very optimistic unless the gas and electricity prices are going to drop.
> Or maybe Bulb don;t care any more as I will be transferring to Octopus.
> I'm not banking on it but I think it will happen.
>>>
>>> PS Glad your system is working to your satisfaction, but please remind
>>> us again how many 10s of 1000s of £ the new windows, insulation,
>>> battery, ASHP and solar panels cost ?
>>>
>> It is not all about cost alone Britters. I think you see it as a
>> spreadsheet exercise but I also think about the planet and global warming -
>> you do too don’t you?
>>
>
> Of course, I think about it a lot and I've studied the subject
> extensively for many years and read widely about it, but not just the
> Catastrophists.
>
> I completely accept that the planet is warming (just as it did in
> Minoan, Roman and medieval times, at least as warm) and that there's an
> anthropogenic element to it. However nobody knows what the ECS is (even
> after decades of research) or how much warming there actually is when
> you discount UHI effects, "adjustment" of historic records (always down
> so the present seems warmer) and the switch to temperature probes which
> provide instant readings and run at least half a degree warmer than
> mercury thermometers. There is also the question of saturation of the IR
> absorption bands.
>
> I don't accept consensus science and the lack of scepticism of CAGW
> adherents. I do believe in science which means making a hypothesis and
> then testing it e.g. where is the troposphoric hot spot ? Why do all
> the models run hotter than the measured temperature ?
>
> So much more that could be said e.g. on misuse of statistics to generate
> hockey sticks, but I'll close by saying that net zero is literally
> unachievable even if you forget about the extra electricity needed for
> EVs and changes to home heating. Wind and solar is at or near its
> saturation point, not least because there is nowhere to store the excess
> energy for dark windless periods. Nuclear could be the answer, but not
> in the net-zero timescale. The other technologies that the NZ fantasists
> rely on simply do not exist like CCS at scale.
>
> In view of this I'll stick to my spreadsheet thanks and conclude that
> even saving 100% of my energy bill saving it would take me multiple
> decades to recoup the costs of implementation, by which time several of
> the elements would need replacement any way (heat pumps are notoriously
> short-lived and batteries and solar panels don;t go on for ever either).
> And I'll also think of the benefit to the planet of not using
> child/slave labour to make the panels and mining all those elements
> needed to make the batteries.
>
> PS If you don't recognise the acronyms I'm using and concepts I'm
> referring to, do some reading with an open mind and get back to me.
> You could start with
> https://clintel.org/thorough-analysis-by-clintel-shows-serious-errors-in-latest-ipcc-report/
>
> and download the full report.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Interesting that Guus Berkhout has worked in the oil industry - so no bias
there I suppose! Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guus_Berkhout#:~:text=Berkhout%20founded%20the%20Netherlands%2Dbased,Climate%20Intelligence%20Foundation%20(CLINTEL).

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 19/05/2023 15:00, Mike McMillan wrote:
>
> Interesting that Guus Berkhout has worked in the oil industry - so no bias
> there I suppose! Please see:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guus_Berkhout#:~:text=Berkhout%20founded%20the%20Netherlands%2Dbased,Climate%20Intelligence%20Foundation%20(CLINTEL).

So what ?