I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP. (Gigaset)

I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all working OK.

Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over VOIP.

If so what should the settings be?

Any pointers would be helpful.

Thanks in advance
--
Regards

RayG

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:26:42 +0000, RayG <rgsub1@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP. (Gigaset)
>
>I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all working OK.
>
>Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over VOIP.
>
>If so what should the settings be?
>
>Any pointers would be helpful.
>
>Thanks in advance

Call concurrently or participate in a call concurrently?

RayG wrote:

> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
> (Gigaset)
>
> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
> working OK.

With the gigaset plugged into a digital voice BT socket on the router?

> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
> VOIP.
>
> If so what should the settings be?

BT are highly unlikely to give you the VoIP credentials

On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
> (Gigaset)
>
> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
> working OK.
>
> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
> VOIP.
>
> If so what should the settings be?
>
> Any pointers would be helpful.

BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
you by BT Digital Voice accessories. So you can connect DECT phones,
wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.

BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
consumers...

>
> Thanks in advance

Dave

On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
> (Gigaset)
>
> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all working OK.
>
> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over VOIP.
>
> If so what should the settings be?
>
> Any pointers would be helpful.

I have BT Digital voice, with a DECT base station plugged into the smart
hub. The DECT handsets can select either the hub or their base, so can make
/ receive separate calls. No settings other than registering with both.

On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
>> (Gigaset)
>>
>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>> working OK.
>>
>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
>> VOIP.
>>
>> If so what should the settings be?
>>
>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>
> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
> you by BT Digital Voice accessories. So you can connect DECT phones,
> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>
> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
> consumers...

And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not have
an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or press a
stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as before.

--

Jeff

On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
>>> (Gigaset)
>>>
>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>> working OK.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
>>> VOIP.
>>>
>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>
>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>
>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>
>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
>> consumers...
>
> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not have
> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or press a
> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
> before.
>
.... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.

Dave

David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>
>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>> working OK.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
>>>> VOIP.
>>>>
>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>
>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>
>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>
>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
>>> consumers...
>>
>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not have
>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or press a
>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>> before.
>>
> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>
> Dave
>

The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
inexorably dying out.

On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>
>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>
>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>
>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>
>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
>>>> consumers...
>>>
>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not have
>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or press a
>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>> before.
>>>
>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
> inexorably dying out.

A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
landlines!

I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out about the
options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
place, or is it up to BT to let them know?

--

Jeff

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> I have BT Digital voice, with a DECT base station plugged into the smart
> hub. The DECT handsets can select either the hub or their base, so can make
> / receive separate calls. No settings other than registering with both.

AIUI:

1. If your DECT base is plugged into the analogue phone socket on the
router, you can't have multiple concurrent calls because that phone wire is
only capable of handling a single call, just a like a landline of old. Best
you can do is have several handsets join the same call.

2. If the handsets are paired with the DECT base inside the router, then
the connection is all digital and it *may* support concurrent calls, but
that will be down to the router design. So depends on the specific model of
router you have.

3. If your DECT base natively supports VOIP, with wifi or an ethernet
socket, then it's down to the DECT base and it probably supports concurrent
calls (the Gigaset ones do eg N300). But to configure that for your BT/etc
Digital Voice service you need to get the SIP login credentials for the
Digital Voice account out of BT, and they won't tell you. So it's only
really workable using a third-party VOIP service like voipfone.

(it sounds like your situation above is a mix of #1 and #2)

Theo

On 18/11/2023 10:37, Theo wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> I have BT Digital voice, with a DECT base station plugged into the smart
>> hub. The DECT handsets can select either the hub or their base, so can make
>> / receive separate calls. No settings other than registering with both.
>
> AIUI:
>
> 1. If your DECT base is plugged into the analogue phone socket on the
> router, you can't have multiple concurrent calls because that phone wire is
> only capable of handling a single call, just a like a landline of old. Best
> you can do is have several handsets join the same call.

BT Smart Hub 2, basic Panasonic DECT. Plugging the base in does not stop
some of the handsets pairing with the hub and having concurrent calls.

> 2. If the handsets are paired with the DECT base inside the router, then
> the connection is all digital and it *may* support concurrent calls, but
> that will be down to the router design. So depends on the specific model of
> router you have.
>
> 3. If your DECT base natively supports VOIP, with wifi or an ethernet
> socket, then it's down to the DECT base and it probably supports concurrent
> calls (the Gigaset ones do eg N300). But to configure that for your BT/etc
> Digital Voice service you need to get the SIP login credentials for the
> Digital Voice account out of BT, and they won't tell you. So it's only
> really workable using a third-party VOIP service like voipfone.
>
>
> (it sounds like your situation above is a mix of #1 and #2)

On 18/11/2023 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing
>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call
>>>>>> concurrently over
>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice
>>>>> Adaptors but
>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>
>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
>>>>> consumers...
>>>>
>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not
>>>> have
>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or
>>>> press a
>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>>> before.
>>>>
>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>
>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>> inexorably dying out.
>
> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
> landlines!
>
> I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out about the
> options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
> place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
> info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
> communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
> place, or is it up to BT to let them know?
>

It's got nothing to do with BT, unless your ISP is BT.

It hasn't really got anything to do with Openreach either for any
'customer facing' info. In short your ISP has to migrate you to Digital
Voice and/or give notice they are ceasing your PSTN line, and do so
before the end of 2025.

Different rules apply (I think ?) to LLU operators such as TalkTalk and
Sky, but they seem to be aiming for the same Dec 2025 target ?

Alt Nets are different again, though with the exception of earlier
legacy Virgin infrastructure it's all irrelevant anyway in their worlds.

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
> > David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
> >>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
> >>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
> >>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
> >>>>> (Gigaset)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
> >>>>> working OK.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
> >>>>> VOIP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If so what should the settings be?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
> >>>>
> >>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
> >>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
> >>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
> >>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
> >>>>
> >>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
> >>>> consumers...
> >>>
> >>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not have
> >>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
> >>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
> >>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
> >>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
> >>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
> >>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or press a
> >>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
> >>> before.
> >>>
> >> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
> >> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >
> > The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
> > inexorably dying out.
>
> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
> landlines!

What about businesses? I don't know of any insurance companies, banks,
multinationals or even high-street shops that use mobile numbers.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP.
>>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over
>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
>>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
>>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice Adaptors but
>>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
>>>>>> consumers...
>>>>>
>>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not have
>>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
>>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
>>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or press a
>>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>>>> before.
>>>>>
>>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>
>>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>>> inexorably dying out.
>>
>> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
>> landlines!
>
> What about businesses? I don't know of any insurance companies, banks,
> multinationals or even high-street shops that use mobile numbers.
>
>

But they don’t use copper pairs, their presentation is pretty much always
some sort of digital/voip. The fact that the called number appears to be a
landline is an irrelevance. My original statement about the customer base
dying out was actually meant literally. Practically every person I know
under 30 doesn’t use a landline for telephony.

On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing VOIP. (Gigaset)
>
> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all working OK.
>
> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call concurrently over VOIP.
>
> If so what should the settings be?
>
> Any pointers would be helpful.
>
> Thanks in advance

Thanks All for the useful info it has helped a lot.

BTW it is an EE (transferred from BT) hub and the DECT Gigaset is plugged into
the hub.

--
Regards

RayG

On 18/11/2023 17:50, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/11/2023 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing
>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call
>>>>>>> concurrently over
>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and make
>>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT phones,
>>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice
>>>>>> Adaptors but
>>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it easy for
>>>>>> consumers...
>>>>>
>>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not
>>>>> have
>>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the change all
>>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they want
>>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or
>>>>> press a
>>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>>>> before.
>>>>>
>>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>
>>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>>> inexorably dying out.
>>
>> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
>> landlines!
>>
>> I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out about the
>> options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
>> place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
>> info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
>> communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
>> place, or is it up to BT to let them know?
>>
>
> It's got nothing to do with BT, unless your ISP is BT.
>
> It hasn't really got anything to do with Openreach either for any
> 'customer facing' info. In short your ISP has to migrate you to Digital
> Voice and/or give notice they are ceasing your PSTN line, and do so
> before the end of 2025.
>
> Different rules apply (I think ?) to LLU operators such as TalkTalk and
> Sky, but they seem to be aiming for the same Dec 2025 target ?
>
> Alt Nets are different again, though with the exception of earlier
> legacy Virgin infrastructure it's all irrelevant anyway in their worlds.

I was referring to someone on POTS, not anything digital, and they don't
have an ISP. When copper disappears, what are those on POTS told about
the fibre "upgrade"? Are they given options which are explained to them,
or is the replacement just fitted by whoever is doing it in that area,
their old phone plugged in (assuming it's compatible), and that's it?

If you look at this thread, you'll see the sort of confusion which can
arise:
<https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/FTTP-Voip-amp-BT-s-Forced-Monopoly-DO-NOT-GET-DIGITAL-VIOCE-IF/td-p/2300274>

--

Jeff

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > What about businesses? I don't know of any insurance companies, banks,
> > multinationals or even high-street shops that use mobile numbers.
>
> But they don’t use copper pairs, their presentation is pretty much always
> some sort of digital/voip. The fact that the called number appears to be a
> landline is an irrelevance. My original statement about the customer base
> dying out was actually meant literally. Practically every person I know
> under 30 doesn’t use a landline for telephony.

For other thing, a landline tends to imply a stable physical premises in
which to host it. For those under 30, they likely don't own their own place
and often move about based on circumstances eg landlords' whims. So having
a number which is likely to change when you move is not much use.

However one big user of landlines is small businesses. eg a garage or a
hairdressing salon might present a landline number for taking bookings, and
that does come on a copper pair to the premises. Whoever is on reception
that day answers it. Some of the bigger outfits may invest in a business
telecoms VOIP system ('press 1 for this...') but for a lot of them they just
take whatever their copper provider gives them.

The businesses who do advertise mobile numbers tend to be one-man-bands, for
whom the number is of a physical phone they carry around. They tend not to
work with multiple users - eg the hairstylist who rents a chair may have a
mobile number they give out to clients for home visits, but the salon uses a
landline number for reception.

Of course you can do all these things with VOIP, and there number doesn't
matter - so you can hand out whatever number you think your customers want
(eg a number in every area code you operate in, so it looks like you're
'local'). But small businesses often just get a consumer-level service and
stick with it.

Also mobile numbers are used, even by quite large organisations eg the BBC
or newspapers, when they are soliciting communication via WhatsApp or
similar services that are designed to use mobile numbers. (also SMS,
although there there are shortcodes)

Theo

Theo wrote:

> one big user of landlines is small businesses. eg a garage or a
> hairdressing salon might present a landline number for taking bookings, and
> that does come on a copper pair to the premises.

For small businesses, a few years ago BT had a push to move ISDN2
customers over to VoIP, during covid it was very convenient for people
to just take their deskphone home and carry on working with the same DDI
numbers and extensions.

Not sure if BT offered the same to "one man and dog" POTS customers?

On 19/11/2023 08:55, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 18/11/2023 17:50, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 18/11/2023 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>>>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing
>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call
>>>>>>>> concurrently over
>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT
>>>>>>> phones,
>>>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice
>>>>>>> Adaptors but
>>>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it
>>>>>>> easy for
>>>>>>> consumers...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>>>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the
>>>>>> change all
>>>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or
>>>>>> press a
>>>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>>>> inexorably dying out.
>>>
>>> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
>>> landlines!
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out about the
>>> options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
>>> place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
>>> info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
>>> communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
>>> place, or is it up to BT to let them know?
>>>
>>
>> It's got nothing to do with BT, unless your ISP is BT.
>>
>> It hasn't really got anything to do with Openreach either for any
>> 'customer facing' info. In short your ISP has to migrate you to Digital
>> Voice and/or give notice they are ceasing your PSTN line, and do so
>> before the end of 2025.
>>
>> Different rules apply (I think ?) to LLU operators such as TalkTalk and
>> Sky, but they seem to be aiming for the same Dec 2025 target ?
>>
>> Alt Nets are different again, though with the exception of earlier
>> legacy Virgin infrastructure it's all irrelevant anyway in their worlds.
>
> I was referring to someone on POTS, not anything digital, and they don't
> have an ISP. When copper disappears, what are those on POTS told about
> the fibre "upgrade"? Are they given options which are explained to them,
> or is the replacement just fitted by whoever is doing it in that area,
> their old phone plugged in (assuming it's compatible), and that's it?
>
> If you look at this thread, you'll see the sort of confusion which can
> arise:
> <https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/FTTP-Voip-amp-BT-s-Forced-Monopoly-DO-NOT-GET-DIGITAL-VIOCE-IF/td-p/2300274>
>

Anyone who is on POTS will almost certainly be on an Openreach provided
copper pair, and the vast majority of those people will be with BT Retail.

The same applies, it'll be up to BT Retail to sort them out with a
solution. The end users shouldn't be troubled with how that's achieved,
(other than the thing about not working in power cuts etc)

They will be provided with a box that their phone plugs into.

If they have wired extension sockets, then it's a bit more complex.
I've not seen any suggestion that BT (or any other ISP/SP) will come
along and rewire those to the router ?

It's any easy job for any savvy DIY'er, I'm sure the vulnerable will be
charged thousands by some unscrupulous types (They always are)

On 18/11/2023 19:29, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

>
> What about businesses? I don't know of any insurance companies, banks,
> multinationals or even high-street shops that use mobile numbers.
>
>
They don't use landlines either,. Any calls are directed via a multiple
choice touch tone system carefully designed to have no options relevant
to your enquiry, and finally after they have harvested the high rate
number for a few dollars, to some partially educated lunatic in the
sub continent whose accent is so thick they are in any case unintelligible .

At which point you give up and cancel your account.

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 19/11/2023 08:55, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 18/11/2023 17:50, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 18/11/2023 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>>>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing
>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call
>>>>>>>> concurrently over
>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in and
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT
>>>>>>> phones,
>>>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice
>>>>>>> Adaptors but
>>>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it
>>>>>>> easy for
>>>>>>> consumers...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or care
>>>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the
>>>>>> change all
>>>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If they
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or
>>>>>> press a
>>>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>>>> inexorably dying out.
>>>
>>> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
>>> landlines!
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out about the
>>> options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
>>> place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
>>> info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
>>> communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
>>> place, or is it up to BT to let them know?
>>>
>>
>> It's got nothing to do with BT, unless your ISP is BT.
>>
>> It hasn't really got anything to do with Openreach either for any
>> 'customer facing' info. In short your ISP has to migrate you to Digital
>> Voice and/or give notice they are ceasing your PSTN line, and do so
>> before the end of 2025.
>>
>> Different rules apply (I think ?) to LLU operators such as TalkTalk and
>> Sky, but they seem to be aiming for the same Dec 2025 target ?
>>
>> Alt Nets are different again, though with the exception of earlier
>> legacy Virgin infrastructure it's all irrelevant anyway in their worlds.
>
> I was referring to someone on POTS, not anything digital, and they don't
> have an ISP. When copper disappears, what are those on POTS told about
> the fibre "upgrade"? Are they given options which are explained to them,
> or is the replacement just fitted by whoever is doing it in that area,
> their old phone plugged in (assuming it's compatible), and that's it?

I don't believe any one on POTS and without broadband is being moved to
Digital Voice.

>
> If you look at this thread, you'll see the sort of confusion which can
> arise:
> <https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/FTTP-Voip-amp-BT-s-Forced-Monopoly-DO-NOT-GET-DIGITAL-VIOCE-IF/td-p/2300274>
>

He had broadband. He is using his own router. He should therefore check
carefully what he was sent. Whilst he can't set up his router as he
wants setting it to be the DMZ device should solve his problems.

Dave.

On 19/11/2023 08:55, Jeff Layman wrote:
> When copper disappears, what are those on POTS told about the fibre
> "upgrade"?

Analogue phone service will normally end before FTTP is forced on
people. They will still have copper, but it will only carry broadband.

On 19/11/2023 12:04, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 19/11/2023 08:55, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 18/11/2023 17:50, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 18/11/2023 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of doing
>>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call
>>>>>>>>> concurrently over
>>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in
>>>>>>>> and make
>>>>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT
>>>>>>>> phones,
>>>>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice
>>>>>>>> Adaptors but
>>>>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it
>>>>>>>> easy for
>>>>>>>> consumers...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or
>>>>>>> care
>>>>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the
>>>>>>> change all
>>>>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If
>>>>>>> they want
>>>>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or
>>>>>>> press a
>>>>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to work as
>>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>>>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>>>>> inexorably dying out.
>>>>
>>>> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
>>>> landlines!
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out about
>>>> the
>>>> options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
>>>> place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
>>>> info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
>>>> communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
>>>> place, or is it up to BT to let them know?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's got nothing to do with BT, unless your ISP is BT.
>>>
>>> It hasn't really got anything to do with Openreach either for any
>>> 'customer facing' info. In short your ISP has to migrate you to Digital
>>> Voice and/or give notice they are ceasing your PSTN line, and do so
>>> before the end of 2025.
>>>
>>> Different rules apply (I think ?) to LLU operators such as TalkTalk and
>>> Sky, but they seem to be aiming for the same Dec 2025 target ?
>>>
>>> Alt Nets are different again, though with the exception of earlier
>>> legacy Virgin infrastructure it's all irrelevant anyway in their worlds.
>>
>> I was referring to someone on POTS, not anything digital, and they
>> don't have an ISP. When copper disappears, what are those on POTS told
>> about the fibre "upgrade"? Are they given options which are explained
>> to them, or is the replacement just fitted by whoever is doing it in
>> that area, their old phone plugged in (assuming it's compatible), and
>> that's it?
>>
>> If you look at this thread, you'll see the sort of confusion which can
>> arise:
>> <https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/FTTP-Voip-amp-BT-s-Forced-Monopoly-DO-NOT-GET-DIGITAL-VIOCE-IF/td-p/2300274>
>>
>
> Anyone who is on POTS will almost certainly be on an Openreach provided
> copper pair, and the vast majority of those people will be with BT Retail.
>
> The same applies, it'll be up to BT Retail to sort them out with a
> solution. The end users shouldn't be troubled with how that's achieved,
> (other than the thing about not working in power cuts etc)
>
> They will be provided with a box that their phone plugs into.
>
> If they have wired extension sockets, then it's a bit more complex.
> I've not seen any suggestion that BT (or any other ISP/SP) will come
> along and rewire those to the router ?

The master socket is usually next to the router. Once openreach have
removed the feed just patch it into the router. Back to back cables
available on Amazon.

OpenReach offer an advanced install. Not sure if this covers this

>
> It's any easy job for any savvy DIY'er, I'm sure the vulnerable will be
> charged thousands by some unscrupulous types (They always are)
>
>

Oft a relative does this.

Dave

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 19/11/2023 08:55, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> When copper disappears, what are those on POTS told about the fibre
>> "upgrade"?
>
> Analogue phone service will normally end before FTTP is forced on
> people. They will still have copper, but it will only carry broadband.
>

It may not be that simple. Round here there’s an area without FTTP. Folk
can’t get a new FTTC connection because the cabinets are full. Basically
the existing infrastructure isn’t going to cope with a mass migration of
POTS lines to digital unless some investment happens.

On 19/11/2023 13:25, David Wade wrote:
> On 19/11/2023 12:04, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 19/11/2023 08:55, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 18/11/2023 17:50, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 18/11/2023 09:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>> On 18/11/2023 09:50, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/11/2023 08:45, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 21:28, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 17/11/2023 18:26, RayG wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have a DECT phone system where the handsets are capable of
>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>>>> (Gigaset)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have just been changed over to the BT digital phone and its all
>>>>>>>>>> working OK.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is it possible to set up the handsets so they can call
>>>>>>>>>> concurrently over
>>>>>>>>>> VOIP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so what should the settings be?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any pointers would be helpful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BT Digital Voice is a "closed system" designed to lock you in
>>>>>>>>> and make
>>>>>>>>> you by BT Digital Voice accessories.  So you can connect DECT
>>>>>>>>> phones,
>>>>>>>>> wired phones, BT Digital Voice Handsets or BT Digital Voice
>>>>>>>>> Adaptors but
>>>>>>>>> you can't connect third party voip phones via SIP.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BT will of course say this "zero config" system is to make it
>>>>>>>>> easy for
>>>>>>>>> consumers...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And they will be more-or-less right. Most landline users who do not
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> an internet connection (and perhaps some who do) neither know or
>>>>>>>> care
>>>>>>>> about VoIP, SIP, Digital Voice, or any other modern incarnation of
>>>>>>>> landline phone use. When the man from BT appears to make the
>>>>>>>> change all
>>>>>>>> they will want is for the new system to work just like the old one.
>>>>>>>> Someone calls them, and they pick up the phone and answer. If
>>>>>>>> they want
>>>>>>>> to make a call, they pick up the phone and key in the numbers or
>>>>>>>> press a
>>>>>>>> stored number button. If they had CLI they will want that to
>>>>>>>> work as
>>>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... and of course BT wants it to cost the same, when the incremental
>>>>>>> cost is minimal, which might be their downfall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fundamental issue is the customer base for landline numbers is
>>>>>> inexorably dying out.
>>>>>
>>>>> A rather apt pun considering the age group who tend to remain using
>>>>> landlines!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how those who remain using landlines who find out
>>>>> about the
>>>>> options available when the change to FTTP and/or Digital Voice takes
>>>>> place. I only became aware of it by reading comments in this NG (and
>>>>> info emails from Zen, my ISP). Is there some sort of official
>>>>> communication they get from Ofcom when the change is about to take
>>>>> place, or is it up to BT to let them know?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's got nothing to do with BT, unless your ISP is BT.
>>>>
>>>> It hasn't really got anything to do with Openreach either for any
>>>> 'customer facing' info. In short your ISP has to migrate you to Digital
>>>> Voice and/or give notice they are ceasing your PSTN line, and do so
>>>> before the end of 2025.
>>>>
>>>> Different rules apply (I think ?) to LLU operators such as TalkTalk and
>>>> Sky, but they seem to be aiming for the same Dec 2025 target ?
>>>>
>>>> Alt Nets are different again, though with the exception of earlier
>>>> legacy Virgin infrastructure it's all irrelevant anyway in their
>>>> worlds.
>>>
>>> I was referring to someone on POTS, not anything digital, and they
>>> don't have an ISP. When copper disappears, what are those on POTS
>>> told about the fibre "upgrade"? Are they given options which are
>>> explained to them, or is the replacement just fitted by whoever is
>>> doing it in that area, their old phone plugged in (assuming it's
>>> compatible), and that's it?
>>>
>>> If you look at this thread, you'll see the sort of confusion which
>>> can arise:
>>> <https://community.bt.com/t5/Home-phone-including-Digital/FTTP-Voip-amp-BT-s-Forced-Monopoly-DO-NOT-GET-DIGITAL-VIOCE-IF/td-p/2300274>
>>>
>>
>> Anyone who is on POTS will almost certainly be on an Openreach
>> provided copper pair, and the vast majority of those people will be
>> with BT Retail.
>>
>> The same applies, it'll be up to BT Retail to sort them out with a
>> solution. The end users shouldn't be troubled with how that's
>> achieved, (other than the thing about not working in power cuts etc)
>>
>> They will be provided with a box that their phone plugs into.
>>
>> If they have wired extension sockets, then it's a bit more complex.
>> I've not seen any suggestion that BT (or any other ISP/SP) will come
>> along and rewire those to the router ?
>
>
> The master socket is usually next to the router. Once openreach have
> removed the feed just patch it into the router. Back to back cables
> available on Amazon.

That's fine if you have been moved to FTTP.

But if you're on ASDL/VDSL then you need to modify the master socket,
because obviously it's still providing the broadband service

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection