I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
saying on the 'phone. He claims the signal in the office is bad and
people can hear him more clearly if he takes the 'phone outside. Today
I watched him take a telephone call in the office: he placed the 'phone
on the desk, arms-lemgth away, and tried to hold a conversation, leaning
back in the chair and mumbling towards his navel, whilst the radio
blared from a shelf just beside his shoulder.

Another friend is impossible to hear on her mobile 'phone after the
first few seconds of conversation and I always have to ring her back on
her landline. She slouches on a settee with the phone held to her neck,
then gradually lets it slide downwards into her lap during the
conversation - usually with the television on in the background. The
landline phone has a handset which she has to hold properly.

This afternoon I rang an insurance broker for a quotation and she
sounded as though she was at the far end of a large room with a tin can
over her head. I had to keep on asking her to repeat things. I said
the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of clients had told
her that since they recently installed a new system. I said I hoped
they would get it sorted out as quickly as possible, but she just seemed
to accept, with mild amusement, that this was how 'phones were nowadays.

It is beginning to look (and sound) as though she is right.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:

[rant about voice quality of phone calls]

I have to agree, and I also agree that it's mostly down to users
mis-using their phones. In particular half the world seems to think
that turning the speaker on and sitting the phone on your lap is a
good idea - no it isn't!

--
Chris Green
·

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 20:24:39 +0000
liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
> saying on the 'phone. He claims the signal in the office is bad and
> people can hear him more clearly if he takes the 'phone outside.
> Today I watched him take a telephone call in the office: he placed
> the 'phone on the desk, arms-lemgth away, and tried to hold a
> conversation, leaning back in the chair and mumbling towards his
> navel, whilst the radio blared from a shelf just beside his shoulder.
>
> Another friend is impossible to hear on her mobile 'phone after the
> first few seconds of conversation and I always have to ring her back
> on her landline. She slouches on a settee with the phone held to her
> neck, then gradually lets it slide downwards into her lap during the
> conversation - usually with the television on in the background. The
> landline phone has a handset which she has to hold properly.
>
> This afternoon I rang an insurance broker for a quotation and she
> sounded as though she was at the far end of a large room with a tin
> can over her head. I had to keep on asking her to repeat things. I
> said the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of clients
> had told her that since they recently installed a new system. I said
> I hoped they would get it sorted out as quickly as possible, but she
> just seemed to accept, with mild amusement, that this was how 'phones
> were nowadays.
>
> It is beginning to look (and sound) as though she is right.
>

I had to continuously ask the guy on the other end of the RAC 'phone
line this morning to repeat what he had just said, but that was because
he sounded as though he came from Mumbai or Kolkatta.
--
Davey.

On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
> saying on the 'phone.

It is often said when someone is difficult to understand on the amateur
bands that you do the same back to them. Mumble, talk quietly or loud
etc. Though when it is bad, it is usually caused by someone having the
microphone right up to their mouth. The same is often the case with
mobile phones or proper phones.

On 28/11/2023 20:39, Chris Green wrote:
> I have to agree, and I also agree that it's mostly down to users
> mis-using their phones. In particular half the world seems to think
> that turning the speaker on and sitting the phone on your lap is a
> good idea - no it isn't!

Often have seen people in films or TV using loudspeaker phones but they
are usually expensive ones used in conference calls (they seem much more
common in US).

On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
> saying on the 'phone. He claims the signal in the office is bad and
> people can hear him more clearly if he takes the 'phone outside. Today
> I watched him take a telephone call in the office: he placed the 'phone
> on the desk, arms-lemgth away, and tried to hold a conversation, leaning
> back in the chair and mumbling towards his navel, whilst the radio
> blared from a shelf just beside his shoulder.

My old boss used to do that in the car. He used his phone hands-free,
but he didn't have a hands-free adaptor; he just left it in its cradle
(down near the gear lever) and turned the volume up. The result, of
course, was that his voice was obliterated by engine noise and the
person at the other end had to strain to hear him.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><

A fight to the death between zombies has a few inherent problems.
~~~ Random (signature) 1.6.1

On Tue 28/11/2023 23:35, JMB99 wrote:
> On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
>> saying on the 'phone.
>
>
> It is often said when someone is difficult to understand on the amateur
> bands that you do the same back to them.  Mumble, talk quietly or loud
> etc. Though when it is bad, it is usually caused by someone having the
> microphone right up to their mouth.  The same is often the case with
> mobile phones or proper phones.
>
>
>
>
>
Perhaps happens more commonly than elsewhere, but in the UK you will
often see an 'agent' using a headset that has a clear pipe towards the
mouth with a small silver ferule on the end. This ferule contains a
small mesh filter which gets blocked up with spit and flying food debris
making the resultant sound picked up both distorted and often inaudible.
The answer was to wash the half pipe with the ferule in a small glass of
warm water containing juts one drop of washing up liquid. Audio
thereafter often perfect - until next time!

On Tue 28/11/2023 23:35, JMB99 wrote:
> On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
>> saying on the 'phone.
>
>
> It is often said when someone is difficult to understand on the amateur
> bands that you do the same back to them.  Mumble, talk quietly or loud
> etc. Though when it is bad, it is usually caused by someone having the
> microphone right up to their mouth.  The same is often the case with
> mobile phones or proper phones.
>
>
>
>
>
Perhaps happens more commonly than elsewhere, but in the UK you will
often see an 'agent' using a headset that has a clear pipe towards the
mouth with a small silver ferule on the end. This ferule contains a
small mesh filter which gets blocked up with spit and flying food debris
making the resultant sound picked up both distorted and often inaudible.
The answer was to wash the half pipe with the ferule in a small glass of
warm water containing juts one drop of washing up liquid. Audio
thereafter often perfect - until next time!

On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

<snip>

I said
> the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of clients had told
> her that since they recently installed a new system. I said I hoped
> they would get it sorted out as quickly as possible, but she just seemed
> to accept, with mild amusement, that this was how 'phones were nowadays.
>
> It is beginning to look (and sound) as though she is right.
>

I have a few friends that are unfortunately hard of hearing, but won't
wear their hearing aids around their house.

Their answered cordless phones, picked up habitually with handsfree
operation speaker at full volume, are typically held direct to their ear
and spoken straight into.

This no doubt also testing the dynamic range of the microphone amplifier
circuit, that is also picking up the background radio/TV that is also on
full blast - until I've lurched across and turned that off.

I don't think this is a (ab-)use case covered in the phone instruction
manual.

Losing hearing is a bad thing :(

--
Adrian C

On 29/11/2023 10:51, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> Losing hearing is a bad thing 🙁

Life's a bitch. And then you die.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> This afternoon I rang an insurance broker for a quotation and she
> sounded as though she was at the far end of a large room with a tin can
> over her head. I had to keep on asking her to repeat things. I said
> the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of clients had told
> her that since they recently installed a new system. I said I hoped
> they would get it sorted out as quickly as possible, but she just seemed
> to accept, with mild amusement, that this was how 'phones were nowadays.

A lot of call centres suffer from several intelligibility problems:

- a lot of background noise from other nearby conversations

- distortion and/or fading (possibly noise "overwhelming" a digital codec)

- staff who mumble or swallow syllables of their words, or who speak
very quickly, often in a non-UK accent

There are also a lot of call centres whose staff aren't familiar with
the phonetic alphabet, if I have to spell a word (especially a postcode)
that they mishear. It's surprisingly difficult when you are put on the
spot to think of a word other than (for example) Yankee when you have to
find a "Y as in ..." word.

The worst was a US company that could not understand my new address. The
woman I spoke to had an accent which sounded to be Hispanic
Southern-States. I seemed to have a lot less of a problem understanding
her than she did in understanding me. "Chestnut" (in our street name)
became "Cheftnet", after I gave up saying "Chestnut" as in the tree, and
spelled out the word in the phonetic alphabet. How "Charlie Hotel Echo
Sierra Tango November Uniform Tango" mutated into Cheftnet is a mystery ;-)

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 10:51:17 +0000
Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> wrote:

> On 28/11/2023 20:24, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> I said
> > the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of clients had
> > told her that since they recently installed a new system. I said I
> > hoped they would get it sorted out as quickly as possible, but she
> > just seemed to accept, with mild amusement, that this was how
> > 'phones were nowadays.
> >
> > It is beginning to look (and sound) as though she is right.
> >
>
> I have a few friends that are unfortunately hard of hearing, but
> won't wear their hearing aids around their house.

Me too. They are uncomfortable, and only offer limited help.
>
> Their answered cordless phones, picked up habitually with handsfree
> operation speaker at full volume, are typically held direct to their
> ear and spoken straight into.
>

Not guilty of that.

> This no doubt also testing the dynamic range of the microphone
> amplifier circuit, that is also picking up the background radio/TV
> that is also on full blast - until I've lurched across and turned
> that off.
>
> I don't think this is a (ab-)use case covered in the phone
> instruction manual.
>

The manual is usually deficient on stuff you would expect to be
covered, let alone such things!

> Losing hearing is a bad thing :(
>
Tell me about it! I only go to the pub when I think it's going to be
fairly empty, as otherwise, all I hear is a "Wall of Noise" with no
chance of actually holding a conversation. I'll be looking at BSL
lessons soon, but nobody else in the pub will understand me.

--
Davey.

On 28/11/2023 20:39, Chris Green wrote:
> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> [rant about voice quality of phone calls]
>
> I have to agree, and I also agree that it's mostly down to users
> mis-using their phones. In particular half the world seems to think
> that turning the speaker on and sitting the phone on your lap is a
> good idea - no it isn't!

Speakerphones really are the spawn of the devil. If they are used in an
office environment, in an open-plan office, they squawk to everyone in
earshot, in addition to those in the meeting.

And the feedback-prevention algorithms usually distort percussive
sounds. The one used by Alexa's "Drop In" facility between two Alexa
nodes is fine for voices, even distant ones which you'd think would be
affected by room echo, but tapping a pen on a desk, or moving papers on
a desk creates a horrible chirping noise. The one used by Skype is a lot
less of a problem.

Room colouration of sound from a distant mike can affect
intelligibility, but the worst thing is when multiple people in a
conversation are different distances away and so are very different volume.

How does the anti-echo of Skype, Alexa and speakerphones generally work?
Does it still rely on frequency-shifting slightly, so any howl-around
gets shifted out of the audible range after a few circuits of the
speaker/microphone loop? Is that what leads to a low-to-high-frequency
chirp on percussive sounds?

On 29/11/2023 14:02, NY wrote:
> The worst was a US company that could not understand my new address. The
> woman I spoke to had an accent which sounded to be Hispanic
> Southern-States. I seemed to have a lot less of a problem understanding
> her than she did in understanding me. "Chestnut" (in our street name)
> became "Cheftnet", after I gave up saying "Chestnut" as in the tree, and
> spelled out the word in the phonetic alphabet. How "Charlie Hotel Echo
> Sierra Tango November Uniform Tango" mutated into Cheftnet is a mystery 😉

You should see what a (presumably) French-Canadian official made of my
Great Great Grandparents' names in their marriage in Quebec in the
1840s. He was Yorkshire and she was Irish so presumably both had accents.

There also could have been a bit of typical French bloody-mindedness.

On 29/11/2023 14:02, NY wrote:
> The worst was a US company that could not understand my new address. The
> woman I spoke to had an accent which sounded to be Hispanic
> Southern-States. I seemed to have a lot less of a problem understanding
> her than she did in understanding me. "Chestnut" (in our street name)
> became "Cheftnet", after I gave up saying "Chestnut" as in the tree, and
> spelled out the word in the phonetic alphabet. How "Charlie Hotel Echo
> Sierra Tango November Uniform Tango" mutated into Cheftnet is a mystery 😉

You should see what a (presumably) French-Canadian official made of my
Great Great Grandparents' names in their marriage in Quebec in the
1840s. He was Yorkshire and she was Irish so presumably both had accents.

There also could have been a bit of typical French bloody-mindedness.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:02:05 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>There are also a lot of call centres whose staff aren't familiar with
>the phonetic alphabet, if I have to spell a word (especially a postcode)
>that they mishear. It's surprisingly difficult when you are put on the
>spot to think of a word other than (for example) Yankee when you have to
>find a "Y as in ..." word.

The first alphabet I had to learn (as a GPO Continental
operator) started Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark,
Edison ... Yokohama. One didn't say the letter then the word,
just the word.

When I moved across to International the alphabet I had to
learn was A Alfred, B Benjamin, C Charles, D David, E Edward
.... Y Yellow.

There you have two words for Y which were, at one time or
another, official.
--
Roger

On 29/11/2023 14:23, NY wrote:
> Speakerphones really are the spawn of the devil. If they are used in an
> office environment, in an open-plan office, they squawk to everyone in
> earshot, in addition to those in the meeting.

Years ago a friend worked on various defence contracts and said they
(had to?) use speakerphones in the office for security reasons. I think
he was working in the Northwood bunker at that time so no danger
strangers overhearing anything.

Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:02:05 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> There are also a lot of call centres whose staff aren't familiar with
>> the phonetic alphabet, if I have to spell a word (especially a postcode)
>> that they mishear. It's surprisingly difficult when you are put on the
>> spot to think of a word other than (for example) Yankee when you have to
>> find a "Y as in ..." word.
>
> The first alphabet I had to learn (as a GPO Continental
> operator) started Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark,
> Edison ... Yokohama. One didn't say the letter then the word,
> just the word.
>
> When I moved across to International the alphabet I had to
> learn was A Alfred, B Benjamin, C Charles, D David, E Edward
> ... Y Yellow.
>
> There you have two words for Y which were, at one time or
> another, official.

Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog…X-ray, Yoke, Zebra gives another one for Y.
Possibilities from other alphabets include Yellow and Yorker.

--
Spike

On 29/11/2023 14:56, JMB99 wrote:
> On 29/11/2023 14:23, NY wrote:
>> Speakerphones really are the spawn of the devil. If they are used in
>> an office environment, in an open-plan office, they squawk to everyone
>> in earshot, in addition to those in the meeting.
>
>
>
> Years ago a friend worked on various defence contracts and said they
> (had to?) use speakerphones in the office for security reasons.  I think
> he was working in the Northwood bunker at that time so no danger
> strangers overhearing anything.

I'm trying to follow the logic. How does using a speaker phone rather
than one or more telephone handsets or hands-free kits make things more
secure? Assuming "strangers overhearing anything" is not an issue.

Is it something to do with making sure that everything which is said at
both ends of the conversation can deliberately be overheard by a
supervisor, as a witness in case of "you said / oh no I didn't" disputes.

On 29/11/2023 21:52, NY wrote:
> I'm trying to follow the logic. How does using a speaker phone rather
> than one or more telephone handsets or hands-free kits make things more
> secure? Assuming "strangers overhearing anything" is not an issue.
>
> Is it something to do with making sure that everything which is said at
> both ends of the conversation can deliberately be overheard by a
> supervisor, as a witness in case of "you said / oh no I didn't" disputes.

I don't know but it would make it more difficult to ring up their
controlling officer in the FSB or SVR!

On 29 Nov 2023 15:38:10 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@btinternet.invalid> wrote:

>Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:02:05 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> There are also a lot of call centres whose staff aren't familiar with
>>> the phonetic alphabet, if I have to spell a word (especially a postcode)
>>> that they mishear. It's surprisingly difficult when you are put on the
>>> spot to think of a word other than (for example) Yankee when you have to
>>> find a "Y as in ..." word.
>>
>> The first alphabet I had to learn (as a GPO Continental
>> operator) started Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark,
>> Edison ... Yokohama. One didn't say the letter then the word,
>> just the word.
>>
>> When I moved across to International the alphabet I had to
>> learn was A Alfred, B Benjamin, C Charles, D David, E Edward
>> ... Y Yellow.
>>
>> There you have two words for Y which were, at one time or
>> another, official.
>
>Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog…X-ray, Yoke, Zebra gives another one for Y.
>Possibilities from other alphabets include Yellow and Yorker.

If you want to confuse non-English speakers, try these:
https://nazmania.co.uk/2005/10/17/a-for-horses/

On 30/11/2023 11:17, Codger wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2023 15:38:10 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 14:02:05 +0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are also a lot of call centres whose staff aren't familiar with
>>>> the phonetic alphabet, if I have to spell a word (especially a postcode)
>>>> that they mishear. It's surprisingly difficult when you are put on the
>>>> spot to think of a word other than (for example) Yankee when you have to
>>>> find a "Y as in ..." word.
>>>
>>> The first alphabet I had to learn (as a GPO Continental
>>> operator) started Amsterdam, Baltimore, Casablanca, Denmark,
>>> Edison ... Yokohama. One didn't say the letter then the word,
>>> just the word.
>>>
>>> When I moved across to International the alphabet I had to
>>> learn was A Alfred, B Benjamin, C Charles, D David, E Edward
>>> ... Y Yellow.
>>>
>>> There you have two words for Y which were, at one time or
>>> another, official.
>>
>> Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog…X-ray, Yoke, Zebra gives another one for Y.
>> Possibilities from other alphabets include Yellow and Yorker.
>
> If you want to confuse non-English speakers, try these:
> https://nazmania.co.uk/2005/10/17/a-for-horses/

Are there any countries which still use their own local phonetic
alphabet (using words which are specific to their language) in
preference to the international alpha, bravo, charlie alphabet?

On 30/11/2023 12:14, NY wrote:
> Are there any countries which still use their own local phonetic
> alphabet (using words which are specific to their language) in
> preference to the international alpha, bravo, charlie alphabet?

It does not seem that long since the Post Office or BT still had an
earlier alphabet in the telephone directory - I don't think it was ABLE,
BAKER and more likely APPLE ....

On 28 Nov 2023 22:56, Davey wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 20:24:39 +0000
> liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
>
>> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
>> saying on the 'phone. He claims the signal in the office is bad and
>> people can hear him more clearly if he takes the 'phone outside.
>> Today I watched him take a telephone call in the office: he placed
>> the 'phone on the desk, arms-lemgth away, and tried to hold a
>> conversation, leaning back in the chair and mumbling towards his
>> navel, whilst the radio blared from a shelf just beside his shoulder.
>>
>> Another friend is impossible to hear on her mobile 'phone after the
>> first few seconds of conversation and I always have to ring her back
>> on her landline. She slouches on a settee with the phone held to her
>> neck, then gradually lets it slide downwards into her lap during the
>> conversation - usually with the television on in the background. The
>> landline phone has a handset which she has to hold properly.
>>
>> This afternoon I rang an insurance broker for a quotation and she
>> sounded as though she was at the far end of a large room with a tin
>> can over her head. I had to keep on asking her to repeat things. I
>> said the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of clients
>> had told her that since they recently installed a new system. I said
>> I hoped they would get it sorted out as quickly as possible, but she
>> just seemed to accept, with mild amusement, that this was how 'phones
>> were nowadays.
>>
>> It is beginning to look (and sound) as though she is right.
>>
>
> I had to continuously ask the guy on the other end of the RAC 'phone
> line this morning to repeat what he had just said, but that was because
> he sounded as though he came from Mumbai or Kolkatta.

So he was talking three different languages?

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 23:44:40 +0000
Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:

> On 28 Nov 2023 22:56, Davey wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 20:24:39 +0000
> > liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
> >
> >> I have great difficulty understanding what my local garage owner is
> >> saying on the 'phone. He claims the signal in the office is bad
> >> and people can hear him more clearly if he takes the 'phone
> >> outside. Today I watched him take a telephone call in the office:
> >> he placed the 'phone on the desk, arms-lemgth away, and tried to
> >> hold a conversation, leaning back in the chair and mumbling
> >> towards his navel, whilst the radio blared from a shelf just
> >> beside his shoulder.
> >>
> >> Another friend is impossible to hear on her mobile 'phone after the
> >> first few seconds of conversation and I always have to ring her
> >> back on her landline. She slouches on a settee with the phone
> >> held to her neck, then gradually lets it slide downwards into her
> >> lap during the conversation - usually with the television on in
> >> the background. The landline phone has a handset which she has to
> >> hold properly.
> >>
> >> This afternoon I rang an insurance broker for a quotation and she
> >> sounded as though she was at the far end of a large room with a tin
> >> can over her head. I had to keep on asking her to repeat things.
> >> I said the 'phone sounded terrible and she agreed that lots of
> >> clients had told her that since they recently installed a new
> >> system. I said I hoped they would get it sorted out as quickly as
> >> possible, but she just seemed to accept, with mild amusement, that
> >> this was how 'phones were nowadays.
> >>
> >> It is beginning to look (and sound) as though she is right.
> >>
> >
> > I had to continuously ask the guy on the other end of the RAC 'phone
> > line this morning to repeat what he had just said, but that was
> > because he sounded as though he came from Mumbai or Kolkatta.
>
> So he was talking three different languages?
>
>

For as much as I could understand, he might well have been.
--
Davey.