Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we are
"at risk".

I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us do too.

The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly not
inline with the comapany's stated goals.

We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get through
this I'm definitely going to change that.

--
/Simon

On 14/06/2023 09:22, siwilson wrote:
> Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we are
> "at risk".
>
> I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us do too.
>
> The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly not
> inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>
> We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
> members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get through
> this I'm definitely going to change that.
>
I too have become more 'left wing' as I have got older - bucking the
usual trend for people to get more extreme right/fascist with age :-/

I too joined a union for the first time[1] when in late middle age
redundancy appeared in the offing. When it happened I gave up academic
life and went off to drive HGVs instead :-)

Hope you get the resolutions you seek.

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 14/06/2023 10:01, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
> I too joined a union for the first time[1] when in late middle age
> redundancy appeared in the offing. When it happened I gave up academic
> life and went off to drive HGVs instead :-)

Oops, forgot the reference :-)
[1] Discounting student unions obvs

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 14 Jun 2023 at 09:22:39 BST, "siwilson" <siwilson@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we are
> "at risk".
>
> I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us do too.
>
> The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly not
> inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>
> We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
> members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get through
> this I'm definitely going to change that.

Actually I thought you'd retired - obv not - but is that on the cards or do
you still enjoy work?

--
jeremy

On 14/06/2023 16:44, jeremy wrote:
> On 14 Jun 2023 at 09:22:39 BST, "siwilson" <siwilson@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we are
>> "at risk".
>>
>> I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us do too.
>>
>> The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly not
>> inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>>
>> We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
>> members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get through
>> this I'm definitely going to change that.
>
> Actually I thought you'd retired - obv not - but is that on the cards or do
> you still enjoy work?
>

Well, I *did*. But now they've kinda ruined it.

--
/Simon

On 14/06/2023 10:01, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>>
> I too have become more 'left wing' as I have got older - bucking the
> usual trend for people to get more extreme right/fascist with age :-/

I'm not sure whether I've become more left wing or politics has moved
extremely rightwards. I suspect a little from column A and a little from
column B.

On 6/15/2023 5:36 AM, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 14/06/2023 10:01, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>>>
>> I too have become more 'left wing' as I have got older - bucking the
>> usual trend for people to get more extreme right/fascist with age :-/
>
> I'm not sure whether I've become more left wing or politics has moved
> extremely rightwards. I suspect a little from column A and a little from
> column B.
>
Over here, things have gotten far more polarized in the last couple of
decades. I actually voted for Nixon. It was the last time I voted
Republican; same for my mother, who'd been a Repub. all her life.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 15/06/2023 20:36 Mike Fleming penned these words:
> On 14/06/2023 10:01, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>>>
>> I too have become more 'left wing' as I have got older - bucking the
>> usual trend for people to get more extreme right/fascist with age :-/
>
> I'm not sure whether I've become more left wing or politics has moved
> extremely rightwards. I suspect a little from column A and a little from
> column B.
>

The Overton window has certainly shifted. It's bit simplified but
URL:https://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010 and scroll to the bottom the
tories of the early 70s are to the left of today's Labour and apart from 2019
Labour and the other major parties have been becoming more right and authoritarian.
--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 16/06/2023 02:07, Boots wrote:
> On 15/06/2023 20:36 Mike Fleming penned these words:
>> On 14/06/2023 10:01, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
>>>>
>>> I too have become more 'left wing' as I have got older - bucking the
>>> usual trend for people to get more extreme right/fascist with age :-/
>>
>> I'm not sure whether I've become more left wing or politics has moved
>> extremely rightwards. I suspect a little from column A and a little from
>> column B.
>>
>
> The Overton window has certainly shifted. It's bit simplified but
> URL:https://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010 and scroll to the bottom the
> tories of the early 70s are to the left of today's Labour and apart from 2019
> Labour and the other major parties have been becoming more right and authoritarian.

And less believable and moral?

Chris
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 09:22:41 UTC+1, siwilson wrote:
> Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we are
> "at risk".
>
> I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us do too.
>
> The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly not
> inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>
> We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
> members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get through
> this I'm definitely going to change that.

"You can't get me I'm part of the..." etc etc

I still am, 45 years in. It was recommended while working in bars as a student. T&G as it was then (advantageous three times).

Not sure it would help in your situation, other than to make sure company follows process.

Hog <york996@gmail.com> wrote in
news:5a7f9dee-f612-4079-9025-7660133f6f59n@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 09:22:41 UTC+1, siwilson wrote:
>> Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we
>> are "at risk".
>>
>> I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us
>> do too.
>>
>> The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly
>> not inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>>
>> We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
>> members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get
>> through this I'm definitely going to change that.
>
> "You can't get me I'm part of the..." etc etc
>
> I still am, 45 years in. It was recommended while working in bars as a
> student. T&G as it was then (advantageous three times).
>
> Not sure it would help in your situation, other than to make sure
> company follows process.

even where the union is not officially recognised, a union might support
legal action should it be needed, if Si had been a union member before the
at risk notice.

it cost me a one off �15 to become a retired Unison member for life at the
Local govt branch covering my former employer. I see that as good value,
bearing in mind the risk of stuff, where I had some involvement, coming
under further scrutiny.

On 17/06/2023 18:13, wessie wrote:
> Hog <york996@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:5a7f9dee-f612-4079-9025-7660133f6f59n@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Wednesday, 14 June 2023 at 09:22:41 UTC+1, siwilson wrote:
>>> Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we
>>> are "at risk".
>>>
>>> I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us
>>> do too.
>>>
>>> The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly
>>> not inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>>>
>>> We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
>>> members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get
>>> through this I'm definitely going to change that.
>>
>> "You can't get me I'm part of the..." etc etc
>>
>> I still am, 45 years in. It was recommended while working in bars as a
>> student. T&G as it was then (advantageous three times).
>>
>> Not sure it would help in your situation, other than to make sure
>> company follows process.
>
> even where the union is not officially recognised, a union might support
> legal action should it be needed, if Si had been a union member before the
> at risk notice.
>
> it cost me a one off Ł15 to become a retired Unison member for life at the
> Local govt branch covering my former employer. I see that as good value,
> bearing in mind the risk of stuff, where I had some involvement, coming
> under further scrutiny.

A couple of people on the list are current members, and yes, all they
are entitled to is legal assistance. There are 60 of us on the list,
they are looking for around half that number.

I had hoped that I'd be able to organise those 60 to make a stand but
I've realised that a) some people are dead set against industrial action
"as a matter of principle" and b) Even if all 60 of us walked out, I
doubt it would sufficiently hurt the day to day operations. The chances
of getting those not directly affeected to join in would be pretty low.

I'm fairly sure the company as made a number of mistakes in the process
already. I've asked boatloads of questions that have gone unanswered and
I know the senior management have been huddled away having legal briefings.

--
/Simon

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 09:22:39 +0100, siwilson
<siwilson@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote:

>Yet again, I, along with a number of colleagues, have been told we are
>"at risk".
>
>I really feel like fighting this time, and a number of others of us do too.
>
>The roles that have been targetted appear quite unfair and certainly not
>inline with the comapany's stated goals.
>
>We don't have a recognised union, and only a small number of us are
>members of one. (Unfortunately I am not one of them). If I get through
>this I'm definitely going to change that.

Having, as you know, been through this a few times myself, then I
commiserate. But, ultimately, they only thing you will get them on is
failure to follow proper process. A union (or, rather, the union's
legal expert) will be worth their weight for this.

Given that you told me 5 years ago that you'd had enough of working, I
don't know why you don't just take the money and retire. It doesn't
seem to have done Packer any harm

On that note - my last attempt at a proper job comes to an end on
Friday. Even doing 26 hours a week was much too demanding, and I came
to realise that I just had absolutely zero enthusiasm for jumping
through the hoops that is modern corporate life.

I'll continue to drive buses occasionally, which is a breathe of fresh
air in comparison
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 03/07/2023 22:38 Champ penned these words:
> Given that you told me 5 years ago that you'd had enough of working, I
> don't know why you don't just take the money and retire. It doesn't
> seem to have done Packer any harm

This ^^^
Life is to short to spend it working
--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 03/07/2023 15:38, Champ wrote:

>
> Given that you told me 5 years ago that you'd had enough of working, I
> don't know why you don't just take the money and retire. It doesn't
> seem to have done Packer any harm
>

Guilty as charged. Truth is, this latest gig has been, up until this
point, ok. I've really enjoyed working with two new teams this past
coupld of years, and seeing them grow and improve. Also I'd much prefer
to leave on my own terms, not theirs.

I still have some rather expensive hobbies/bills and don't feel like
I've got enough in the pot to see me out. I know a few people who have
"retired" who have gone, or are talking about going to go, back to work.

In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike, but I've
found myself applying for a few. There's one I really, really want, it's
absolutely up my street. 2nd interview tomorrow.

--
/Simon

On 04/07/2023 15:20, siwilson wrote:
> On 03/07/2023 15:38, Champ wrote:
>
>>
>> Given that you told me 5 years ago that you'd had enough of working, I
>> don't know why you don't just take the money and retire.  It doesn't
>> seem to have done Packer any harm
>>
>
> Guilty as charged. Truth is, this latest gig has been, up until this
> point, ok. I've really enjoyed working with two new teams this past
> coupld of years, and seeing them grow and improve. Also I'd much prefer
> to leave on my own terms, not theirs.
>
> I still have some rather expensive hobbies/bills and don't feel like
> I've got enough in the pot to see me out. I know a few people who have
> "retired" who have gone, or are talking about going to go, back to work.
>
> In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike, but I've
> found myself applying for a few. There's one I really, really want, it's
> absolutely up my street. 2nd interview tomorrow.

Best of luck, then. Let's hope the feeling is reciprocal.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 3:20:49 PM UTC+1, siwilson wrote:

> I still have some rather expensive hobbies/bills and don't feel like
> I've got enough in the pot to see me out. I know a few people who have
> "retired" who have gone, or are talking about going to go, back to work.

I suspect that it's always easy to convince yourself that there isn't enough in the pot to retire. There is (people live in tiny amounts of money...albeit without expensive hobbies, etc), but it would always feel like the pot could be bulked up.

> In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike,

I absolutely love that part. Have always loved interviewing. It was only relatively late in my career that I realized that's because I instinctively like selling, and an interview is the selling of oneself.

>but I've
> found myself applying for a few. There's one I really, really want, it's
> absolutely up my street. 2nd interview tomorrow.

Good luck, matey.

On 04/07/2023 15:20, siwilson wrote:
> On 03/07/2023 15:38, Champ wrote:
>
>>
>> Given that you told me 5 years ago that you'd had enough of working, I
>> don't know why you don't just take the money and retire.  It doesn't
>> seem to have done Packer any harm
>>
>
> Guilty as charged. Truth is, this latest gig has been, up until this
> point, ok. I've really enjoyed working with two new teams this past
> coupld of years, and seeing them grow and improve. Also I'd much prefer
> to leave on my own terms, not theirs.
>
> I still have some rather expensive hobbies/bills and don't feel like
> I've got enough in the pot to see me out. I know a few people who have
> "retired" who have gone, or are talking about going to go, back to work.
>

I retired 'early' and went back part time on IT support (rather than
'white hat' + IT) for 7 years. Naturally the feather bedded inflation
proofed local government superannuation pension helped. I even accrued a
small additional pension whilst working 12 hours a week. Enough to help
pay the insurance premiums on my expensive hobbies.

> In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike, but I've
> found myself applying for a few. There's one I really, really want, it's
> absolutely up my street. 2nd interview tomorrow.
>

'Break a leg' (well done for not doing so at Shelsley at the weekend).

Just before I retired the first time I applied for a job at a higher
white hat management level in a different authority. Knowing my escape
was almost certainly imminent I was completely at ease. Part of the
interview was to present a power point on how to provide services in the
face of cuts. Mine was entitled "Doing more with less" and featured
quotes from Lao Tsu and Si Kahn ("It's what you do with what you've
got"). One slide simply said "Prioritisation, prioritisation,
prioritisation". I wasn't offered it. Possibly because the grapevine had
told them of my impending bale out but also because the main specialism
for the team to be managed wasn't my strong suit, noise, but authorised
processes. Yes, I know, a good manager can manage anything, but in this
arena managing professional officers regulating things that can go
horribly wrong, it is better if you have half a clue as to whether they
are spinning you yarns.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 15:20:47 +0100, siwilson
<siwilson@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 03/07/2023 15:38, Champ wrote:
>
>>
>> Given that you told me 5 years ago that you'd had enough of working, I
>> don't know why you don't just take the money and retire. It doesn't
>> seem to have done Packer any harm

>Guilty as charged. Truth is, this latest gig has been, up until this
>point, ok. I've really enjoyed working with two new teams this past
>coupld of years, and seeing them grow and improve. Also I'd much prefer
>to leave on my own terms, not theirs.

Yeah, but I would say that's mostly pride, which is an expensive
luxury

>I still have some rather expensive hobbies/bills and don't feel like
>I've got enough in the pot to see me out. I know a few people who have
>"retired" who have gone, or are talking about going to go, back to work.

Or you could try "semi-retired" like me :-) I'm driving a bus again
this evening (did a shift last Sunday evening) - I do quite like it!
Very serious responsibility when you're doing it, and then *zero*
responsibilty when you clock off

>In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike, but I've
>found myself applying for a few. There's one I really, really want, it's
>absolutely up my street. 2nd interview tomorrow.

Good luck!
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT), Ben Blaney
<benblaney@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 3:20:49?PM UTC+1, siwilson wrote:
>
>> I still have some rather expensive hobbies/bills and don't feel like
>> I've got enough in the pot to see me out. I know a few people who have
>> "retired" who have gone, or are talking about going to go, back to work.

>I suspect that it's always easy to convince yourself that there isn't enough in the pot to retire.
>There is (people live in tiny amounts of money...albeit without expensive hobbies, etc),
>but it would always feel like the pot could be bulked up.

Agreed. One of the things I've unexpectedly enjoyed about getting
older and planning for old age & retirement is the reduction in
horizons and expectations. I've found I can live on much less than I
anticipated.

>> In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike,

>I absolutely love that part. Have always loved interviewing. It was only relatively late in
>my career that I realized that's because I instinctively like selling, and an interview is the selling of oneself.

Me too. But it turns out I interview much better than I work! The
last 8 years I've sold myself into 5 jobs all of which I've been found
wanting at (i.e. not met my employers expectations). I've
rationalised this away by deciding that I was really ready to retire,
or at least wind down a bit.

But the possibility remainse that I've always been a bit shit at work.
I just can't take most of it seriously.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Ben Blaney wrote:

> I suspect that it's always easy to convince yourself that there isn't
> enough in the pot to retire. There is (people live in tiny amounts
> of money...albeit without expensive hobbies, etc), but it would
> always feel like the pot could be bulked up.

If someone had told me five years ago that I could live on what I've
actually managed to live on for the last four years I'd have laughed in
their face. One learns to cut one's cloth accordingly.

It does help that P's pension income covers pretty much all of the
household costs. When I do actually start taking a pension from next
year I'll be contributing once again.

> > In general it's the finding a new job bit I really dislike,
>
> I absolutely love that part. Have always loved interviewing. It was
> only relatively late in my career that I realized that's because I
> instinctively like selling, and an interview is the selling of
> oneself.

Always hated it. I had one interview last year when things were getting
a little hairy finance-wise but I realised that I'd absolutely hate
going back to work - especially in IT and/or full-time.

> Good luck, matey.

Yes, good luck Si.

--
Chris

On 05/07/2023 20:54 CT penned these words:
> Ben Blaney wrote:
>
>> I suspect that it's always easy to convince yourself that there isn't
>> enough in the pot to retire.
>
> If someone had told me five years ago that I could live on what I've
> actually managed to live on for the last four years I'd have laughed in
> their face. One learns to cut one's cloth accordingly.

Or the amount of income that goes on clothes for work, commuting costs, meal
costs etc etc.

> realised that I'd absolutely hate
> going back to work - especially in IT and/or full-time.

Every now and then I hear from my old manager, there's a potential project here
could I help out. I was always willing now they'll have to find a way of
employing me locally, I've cut the tax tie with the UK and are not keen to
re-establish.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On Wednesday, 5 July 2023 at 13:55:02 UTC+1, CT wrote:
> Ben Blaney wrote:

> If someone had told me five years ago that I could live on what I've
> actually managed to live on for the last four years I'd have laughed in
> their face. One learns to cut one's cloth accordingly.

Yes, that's very true. If you've been well paid forget all the guff about
needing an income that's 60% of what you had when working; it's
just not true.

<snip>

> Always hated it. I had one interview last year when things were getting
> a little hairy finance-wise but I realised that I'd absolutely hate
> going back to work - especially in IT and/or full-time.

Hmm, I didn't enjoy the idea of interviews but once I was in them I did
enjoy the opportunity to sell myself. Really enjoyed the last interview
(with Truphone) where I thought I'd just about sealed some sort of a biz-dev
role[1] and then made the mistake of asking about the possibility of a three
day a week role... Idiot; shutters came straight down and interviewer couldn't
get me out of the office fast enough.

I would quite like a 2-day a week role if I'm honest. Or maybe it's the idea of a
2-day a week role. I miss the sense of purpose work gave me more than I want
to admit; and these days I understand it's fine to work in your pyjamas since no
one goes to the office or something.

[1] Fundamentally I've always been a frustrated salesman and thought I might
spend my last role in something involving selling/biz-dev/relationship management
etc. Wasn't to be.

On 06/07/2023 09:02, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 5 July 2023 at 13:55:02 UTC+1, CT wrote:
>> Ben Blaney wrote:
>
>> If someone had told me five years ago that I could live on what I've
>> actually managed to live on for the last four years I'd have laughed in
>> their face. One learns to cut one's cloth accordingly.
>
> Yes, that's very true. If you've been well paid forget all the guff about
> needing an income that's 60% of what you had when working; it's
> just not true.
>
> <snip>
>
<snip>

My 12 hours a week for seven years fulfilled that 'need'. These days I
get it by helping out with various software projects for the NHCA and
playing about with online DMS for material useful to SOB enthusiasts.
Also maintaining a phpBB forum site for an organisation I won't name.
Noddy, but updating the package concentrates the mind as it has
extensions including a custom one. No guarantee that they will all still
work after a major upgrade. Plus troubleshooting a failed SOAP service
call that had defeated the bod at 'the centre' (turned out it was wrong
white-listed referring IP as I kept trying to tell them).

>
> [1] Fundamentally I've always been a frustrated salesman and thought I might
> spend my last role in something involving selling/biz-dev/relationship management
> etc. Wasn't to be.

This is the career path my lad has embarked upon ('Global research'
services - in the IT sector). He could sell coals to Newcastle. Not sure
you would want to do it at your age. Targets, long hours, interrupted
weekends - but slap up on expenses shmoozing lunches as compensation.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher wrote:

> Targets, long hours, interrupted weekends -
> but slap up on expenses shmoozing lunches as compensation.

<Marvin> Sounds awful </Marvin>