I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.

If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
(b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?

On Mon 04/12/2023 20:01, Scott wrote:
> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>
> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?

The second part is easy. All CLI is sent as the full number whether it
is dialled as a full number or a local call. In due course we will all
have to dial the full number as we do with a mobile.

In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>
> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?

It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.

Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
VoIP subscriber.

It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
the principle.

Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Winchester, UK

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
Mountifield) wrote:

>In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>
>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>
>It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>
>Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>VoIP subscriber.
>
>It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>the principle.
>
In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
(omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
settings?

On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
> Mountifield) wrote:
>
>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>
>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>
>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>
>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>> VoIP subscriber.
>>
>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>> the principle.
>>
> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
> settings?

In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
number, you would have to do this locally.

Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
couldn't cope....

.... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
doesn't

Dave

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
wrote:

>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>
>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>
>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>
>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>
>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>> the principle.
>>>
>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>> settings?
>
>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>number, you would have to do this locally.
>
>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>couldn't cope....
>
>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>doesn't
>
I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.

On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
> Mountifield) wrote:
>
>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>
>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>
>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>
>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>> VoIP subscriber.
>>
>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>> the principle.
>>
> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
> settings?

Because VOIP is not geographically located. I could for example, move to
South Africa and use my sipgate login to simulate being here in suffolk
as far as reported numbere was concerned.

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 11:30:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>
>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>
>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>
>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>
>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>> the principle.
>>>
>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>> settings?
>
>Because VOIP is not geographically located. I could for example, move to
>South Africa and use my sipgate login to simulate being here in suffolk
>as far as reported numbere was concerned.

In that case, why is +44 not needed as well?

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 10:59:10 +0000, Scott wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain
>>>>> the number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in
>>>>> Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP
>>>>> number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP
>>>>> provider?
>>>>
>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow,
>>>> the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>>
>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>> the principle.
>>>>
>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>>> settings?
>>
>>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>number, you would have to do this locally.
>>
>>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>>now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>couldn't cope....
>>
>>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>>doesn't
>>
> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101 and
> the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.

I do it by number length. Where I live, all local numbers are exactly six
digits (in a few places in the UK, it can be five digits, but I don't live
there).

So, if a number is exactly six dogits long, I prefix it with 01227 (the
code for my area). If it's anything else, I leave it alone. Job done.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>>
>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>>
>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>>
>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>> the principle.
>>>>
>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>>> settings?
>>
>>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>number, you would have to do this locally.
>>
>>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>>now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>couldn't cope....
>>
>>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>>doesn't
>>
> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.

Numbers beginning with 1 cannot be local numbers, can they? Local
numbers are numbers (after the area code) which don't begin with 0 or
1. I can't find anything to confirm this.

On 05/12/2023 10:53, David Wade wrote:
> but as the VOIP protocols specify the full number must be sent,

The core SIP specification, RFC 3261, requires a URI to be sent. The
standard (SIP:) URI need not contain any numeric digits at all. It is a
commercial convention that the user part consists of a phone number. A
well formed SIP URI for me could be SIP:david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid

There is a special URI format, sometimes used, which is specifically for
phone numbers (RFC 3966). This has specific provisions for local
numbers, although I've never seen them implemented.
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3966#section-5.1.5>

In practice providers don't actually enforce the requirement to mark
local numbers is with a local context.

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 13:45:28 +0000, Richmond wrote:

> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain
>>>>>> the number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange
>>>>>> there know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in
>>>>>> Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP
>>>>>> number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP
>>>>>> provider?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow,
>>>>> the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first
>>>>> of all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should
>>>>> find that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to
>>>>> their VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>>> the principle.
>>>>>
>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical
>>>> conversion as the exchange does if the country code and area code are
>>>> part of the settings?
>>>
>>>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>>number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>
>>>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>>>now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>>couldn't cope....
>>>
>>>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>>>doesn't
>>>
>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101 and
>> the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>
> Numbers beginning with 1 cannot be local numbers, can they? Local
> numbers are numbers (after the area code) which don't begin with 0 or 1.
> I can't find anything to confirm this.

Not always true. In areas without local dialling, local numbers can start
with zero. Here in Milton Keynes there are numbers like:

01908 047000 (a shop in Stony Stratford).

Not sure about 01908 1xxxxx.

Cheers,
nib

On 05/12/2023 13:45, Richmond wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>> >from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>>> the principle.
>>>>>
>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>>>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>>>> settings?
>>>
>>> In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>> number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>> number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>
>>> Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>>> now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>> couldn't cope....
>>>
>>> ... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>>> doesn't
>>>
>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>
> Numbers beginning with 1 cannot be local numbers, can they? Local
> numbers are numbers (after the area code) which don't begin with 0 or
> 1. I can't find anything to confirm this.

There are exchanges which have local numbers starting with "1" where its
necessary to dial the full number when calling within the same exchange,
for example Bournemouth. (re-join and scroll down a little)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_the_United_Kingdom#National-dialling-only_ranges

and the OFCOM statement from the archive (you have to re-join it)

https://web.archive.org/web/20220119020700/http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statements/category-2/geographic-telephone-numbers

so basically local dialling was being phased out on pots...

Dave

David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes:

> On 05/12/2023 13:45, Richmond wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org
>>>>> (Tony
>>>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then
>>>>>>> retain the number when I move house. I am wondering how this
>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange
>>>>>>> there know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone
>>>>>>> in Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a
>>>>>>> VOIP number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the
>>>>>>> VOIP provider?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within
>>>>>> Glasgow, the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141
>>>>>> number first of all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of
>>>>>> each number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers
>>>>>> ported out >>>>> >from their range, specifying the telco to which
>>>>>> the number is ported. The call would then get routed to the
>>>>>> required telco, who should find that it is now to be handled by
>>>>>> them, and they will route it to their VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details,
>>>>>> just the principle.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical
>>>>> conversion as the exchange does if the country code and area code
>>>>> are part of the settings?
>>>>
>>>> In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the
>>>> full number must be sent, and its your local equipment that
>>>> generates the number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>>
>>>> Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short
>>>> codes we now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because
>>>> 112/999 couldn't cope....
>>>>
>>>> ... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should,
>>>> but it doesn't
>>>>
>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the
>>> preset buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local
>>> calls. >> Numbers beginning with 1 cannot be local numbers, can
>>> they? Local >> numbers are numbers (after the area code) which don't
>>> begin with 0 or >> 1. I can't find anything to confirm this.
>
> There are exchanges which have local numbers starting with "1" where
> its necessary to dial the full number when calling within the same
> exchange, for example Bournemouth. (re-join and scroll down a little)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_the_United_Kingdom#National-dialling-only_ranges
>
> and the OFCOM statement from the archive (you have to re-join it)
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20220119020700/http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consultations-and-statements/category-2/geographic-telephone-numbers
>
> so basically local dialling was being phased out on pots...
>
> Dave

How intriguing. Supposing for the sake argument the last number
available in Bristol was 01179899999, why not link this back to the
exchange an make a whole new prefix out of it?

On Tue 05/12/2023 11:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>> Scott  <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>> number when I move house.  I am wondering how this works.
>>>>
>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141?  If someone in Glasgow
>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>
>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>
>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>> from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>
>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>> the principle.
>>>
>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>> (omitting STD code).  Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>> settings?
>
> Because VOIP is not geographically located. I could for example, move to
> South Africa and use my sipgate login to simulate being here in suffolk
> as far as reported numbere was concerned.
>

Been there, done that....etc.

I have a UK VoIP number and an app on my mobile. Once when in France
(holiday) with unrestricted free wi-fi available I used the app to call
my daughter in the UK - and it went through no problem with CLI giving
my home number. We would use WhatsApp nowadays of course.

I say unrestricted because it is very common in France to find free
wi-fi in proximity of the Mairie's (Mayor's) Office BUT that service is
often supplied by Orange France (i.e. the French equivalent of BT) and
they block all ports other than 80 and (IMSMC) 25. Ergo you can browse
the web but you can't for example use a mail client or a VPN.

Strangely enough free wi-fi is often available around the Tourist
Information Office in the same town/village which is unlimited.

On 05/12/2023 15:23, Richmond wrote:
> Supposing for the sake argument the last number
> available in Bristol was 01179899999, why not link this back to the
> exchange an make a whole new prefix out of it?

It would break international dialling, which tends to assume, a maximum
of about 15 digits.

It would break many customer and sales databases, which will have limits
on phone numbers, and also reports produced from.

It will break phones with limits on stored number lengths.

It will likely mean that exchanges and phones think that that dialling
is complete, when it isn't. VoIP systems aren't normally set up for
overlapped dialling, so need to know number lengths or have the phones
timeout the last digit if more than the minimum length for a range.

On 5 Dec 2023 13:00:26 GMT, Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

>On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 10:59:10 +0000, Scott wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain
>>>>>> the number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in
>>>>>> Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP
>>>>>> number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP
>>>>>> provider?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow,
>>>>> the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of
>>>>> all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>>> the principle.
>>>>>
>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>>>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>>>> settings?
>>>
>>>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>>number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>
>>>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>>>now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>>couldn't cope....
>>>
>>>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>>>doesn't
>>>
>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101 and
>> the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>
>I do it by number length. Where I live, all local numbers are exactly six
>digits (in a few places in the UK, it can be five digits, but I don't live
>there).
>
>So, if a number is exactly six dogits long, I prefix it with 01227 (the
>code for my area). If it's anything else, I leave it alone. Job done.

Are directory enquiries numbers not also six digits (eg 118118)?

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:44:53 +0000, Scott wrote:

> On 5 Dec 2023 13:00:26 GMT, Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 10:59:10 +0000, Scott wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain
>>>>>>> the number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange
>>>>>>> there know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone
>>>>>>> in Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a
>>>>>>> VOIP number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the
>>>>>>> VOIP provider?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow,
>>>>>> the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first
>>>>>> of all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of
>>>>>> each number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers
>>>>>> ported out
>>>>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is
>>>>>>ported.
>>>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should
>>>>>> find that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it
>>>>>> to their VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details,
>>>>>> just the principle.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical
>>>>> conversion as the exchange does if the country code and area code
>>>>> are part of the settings?
>>>>
>>>>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>>>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>>>number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>>
>>>>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes
>>>>we now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>>>couldn't cope....
>>>>
>>>>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but
>>>>it doesn't
>>>>
>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>>
>>I do it by number length. Where I live, all local numbers are exactly
>>six digits (in a few places in the UK, it can be five digits, but I
>>don't live there).
>>
>>So, if a number is exactly six dogits long, I prefix it with 01227 (the
>>code for my area). If it's anything else, I leave it alone. Job done.
>
> Are directory enquiries numbers not also six digits (eg 118118)?

Such numbers are separately handled, and being more specific are caught
first. They cost money (in this case) so I block them.

On Tue 05/12/2023 16:19, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:44:53 +0000, Scott wrote:
>
>> On 5 Dec 2023 13:00:26 GMT, Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 10:59:10 +0000, Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>>>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain
>>>>>>>> the number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange
>>>>>>>> there know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone
>>>>>>>> in Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a
>>>>>>>> VOIP number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the
>>>>>>>> VOIP provider?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow,
>>>>>>> the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first
>>>>>>> of all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of
>>>>>>> each number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers
>>>>>>> ported out
>>>>>> >from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is
>>>>>>> ported.
>>>>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should
>>>>>>> find that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it
>>>>>>> to their VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details,
>>>>>>> just the principle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical
>>>>>> conversion as the exchange does if the country code and area code
>>>>>> are part of the settings?
>>>>>
>>>>> In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>>>> number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>>>> number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes
>>>>> we now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>>>> couldn't cope....
>>>>>
>>>>> ... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but
>>>>> it doesn't
>>>>>
>>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>>>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>>>
>>> I do it by number length. Where I live, all local numbers are exactly
>>> six digits (in a few places in the UK, it can be five digits, but I
>>> don't live there).
>>>
>>> So, if a number is exactly six dogits long, I prefix it with 01227 (the
>>> code for my area). If it's anything else, I leave it alone. Job done.
>>
>> Are directory enquiries numbers not also six digits (eg 118118)?
>
> Such numbers are separately handled, and being more specific are caught
> first. They cost money (in this case) so I block them.

Are you blocking on 118### or less digits?

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> I say unrestricted because it is very common in France to find free
> wi-fi in proximity of the Mairie's (Mayor's) Office BUT that service is
> often supplied by Orange France (i.e. the French equivalent of BT) and
> they block all ports other than 80 and (IMSMC) 25. Ergo you can browse
> the web but you can't for example use a mail client or a VPN.
>
Surely you can get a VPN to use any port you fancy (if it's your VPN
server a the other end).

--
Chris Green
·

On 05/12/2023 12:13, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 11:30:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>>
>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>>
>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>> >from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>>
>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>> the principle.
>>>>
>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>>> settings?
>>
>> Because VOIP is not geographically located. I could for example, move to
>> South Africa and use my sipgate login to simulate being here in suffolk
>> as far as reported numbere was concerned.
>
> In that case, why is +44 not needed as well?

Because the number is UK registered

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:35:03 +0000, Woody wrote:

> On Tue 05/12/2023 16:19, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:44:53 +0000, Scott wrote:
>>
>>> On 5 Dec 2023 13:00:26 GMT, Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 10:59:10 +0000, Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org
>>>>>>> (Tony Mountifield) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then
>>>>>>>>> retain the number when I move house. I am wondering how this
>>>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange
>>>>>>>>> there know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone
>>>>>>>>> in Glasgow calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a
>>>>>>>>> VOIP number and (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the
>>>>>>>>> VOIP provider?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within
>>>>>>>> Glasgow,
>>>>>>>> the exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number
>>>>>>>> first of all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of
>>>>>>>> each number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers
>>>>>>>> ported out
>>>>>>> >from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is
>>>>>>>> ported.
>>>>>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should
>>>>>>>> find that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it
>>>>>>>> to their VoIP subscriber.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details,
>>>>>>>> just the principle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>>>>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical
>>>>>>> conversion as the exchange does if the country code and area code
>>>>>>> are part of the settings?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the
>>>>>> full number must be sent, and its your local equipment that
>>>>>> generates the number, you would have to do this locally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short
>>>>>> codes we now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because
>>>>>> 112/999 couldn't cope....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should,
>>>>>> but it doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the
>>>>> preset buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local
>>>>> calls.
>>>>
>>>> I do it by number length. Where I live, all local numbers are exactly
>>>> six digits (in a few places in the UK, it can be five digits, but I
>>>> don't live there).
>>>>
>>>> So, if a number is exactly six dogits long, I prefix it with 01227
>>>> (the code for my area). If it's anything else, I leave it alone. Job
>>>> done.
>>>
>>> Are directory enquiries numbers not also six digits (eg 118118)?
>>
>> Such numbers are separately handled, and being more specific are caught
>> first. They cost money (in this case) so I block them.
>
> Are you blocking on 118### or less digits?

That one, on 118 followed by anything.

On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.

One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.

Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
complicated setting it up.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Am 04.12.2023 um 20:01:14 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?

Everything is computer controlled and a number is assigned to an ISP.
You line is terminated at your ISP and the call will be routed to your
ISP, regardless where you use VoIP to establish the session to your ISP.

In the past, the area code was fixed because mechanical selectors
(mostly two-motion selectors) selected the next exchange based on the
area code.

With ISDN this was already history.

Technically, you can route any number to any ISP and you can use it
with VoIP from whatever IP you want.

All restrictions here are either legal or by your ISP.

Am 05.12.2023 um 10:29:43 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
> settings?

Because nowadays this doesn't work anymore.

The concept of area codes implies that all numbers of that area code
use a specific exchange. In the past this was the case and mechanical
selectors selected the proper line either to the subscriber or to the
next exchange when started with 0 (trunk prefix).
With ISDN (even when subscriber line is analog), this started to be
computer-controlled and it was possible to router certain calls to
other exchanges (from other carriers) based on a routing table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_number_portability

The old system of the area codes still exists because people can keep
their numbers, but there is no technical reason anymore like it existed
in the past.