On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 10:59:10 +0000, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:53:57 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On 05/12/2023 10:29, Scott wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:34:32 +0000 (UTC), tony@mountifield.org (Tony
>>> Mountifield) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <9obsmili5kkdp73r2kl28vh3all782frr8@4ax.com>,
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> I understand I can transfer my landline phone to VOIP then retain the
>>>>> number when I move house. I am wondering how this works.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone in London calls 0141 357 xxxx how does the exchange there
>>>>> know to send the call to VOIP and not to 0141? If someone in Glasgow
>>>>> calls 357 xxxx how does the exchange know (a) it is a VOIP number and
>>>>> (b) to add 0141 before sending the number to the VOIP provider?
>>>>
>>>> It's all done digitally nowadays. For the call from within Glasgow, the
>>>> exchange will logically convert it to a full 0141 number first of all.
>>>>
>>>> Then with number portability now being widespread, the owner of each
>>>> number range will need to have a lookup table of numbers ported out
>>>>from their range, specifying the telco to which the number is ported.
>>>> The call would then get routed to the required telco, who should find
>>>> that it is now to be handled by them, and they will route it to their
>>>> VoIP subscriber.
>>>>
>>>> It's probably all done using SS7, but I don't know the details, just
>>>> the principle.
>>>>
>>> In that case, why is there any need to withdraw local dialling
>>> (omitting STD code). Why can't VOIP apply the same logical conversion
>>> as the exchange does if the country code and area code are part of the
>>> settings?
>>
>>In theory this is possible, but as the VOIP protocols specify the full
>>number must be sent, and its your local equipment that generates the
>>number, you would have to do this locally.
>>
>>Whilst it may seem simple, the issue is handling all the short codes we
>>now have such 111, 101 etc. which were introduced because 112/999
>>couldn't cope....
>>
>>... most of the kit does not seem to cope with these. it should, but it
>>doesn't
>>
>I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.

I tried this successfully on my DECT phone.

On 06/12/2023 08:50, Marco Moock wrote:
> In the past, the area code was fixed because mechanical selectors
> (mostly two-motion selectors) selected the next exchange based on the
> area code.
>
> With ISDN this was already history.

No it wasn't. System X routed calls based on the area code only and
didn't analyze the whole number.

Also, the real step by step systems didn't route by area code; they
routed by strings of, typically, 7s, 8s, and 9s one hop at at time.

Computerised control was used with mechanical switches.

You really meant SS7 common channel signalling, rather than ISDN. ISDN
used that for call control, but so did the System X and Y voice networks.

So far I have haven't seen what looks to me to be a definitive answer to
how it done, although the correct answer may have been given. In the
past, implementations of number portability have been quite messy, e.g.
mobile phone calls following the complete history of the ports of the
number.

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 23:39:05 +0000, Brian Gregory
<void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:

>On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>
>One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
>do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
>beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.
>
>Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
>complicated setting it up.

It it's complicated, would technical support do it for me?

On 06/12/2023 10:06, Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 23:39:05 +0000, Brian Gregory
> <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>>
>> One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
>> do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
>> beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.
>>
>> Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
>> complicated setting it up.
>
> It it's complicated, would technical support do it for me?

When I did a little technical support of a business VOIP system we had
many dialing rules in place. I don't think VOIP providers are going to
do this. Most folks either have the number in a memory or just dial a
number from an advert, business card or whatever in which case it will
be the full number.

If you really want complexity then try a PI base PABX like this

https://magpi.raspberrypi.com/articles/raspberry-pi-telephone-exchange

which has complex logic such as mentioned elsewhere.

https://www.voip-info.org/asterisk-dialplan-patterns/

I guess with VOIP phones the only extra cost is a PI.

Dave

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 11:17:06 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
wrote:

>On 06/12/2023 10:06, Scott wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 23:39:05 +0000, Brian Gregory
>> <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
>>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>>>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>>>
>>> One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
>>> do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
>>> beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.
>>>
>>> Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
>>> complicated setting it up.
>>
>> It it's complicated, would technical support do it for me?
>
>When I did a little technical support of a business VOIP system we had
>many dialing rules in place. I don't think VOIP providers are going to
>do this. Most folks either have the number in a memory or just dial a
>number from an advert, business card or whatever in which case it will
>be the full number.
>
>If you really want complexity then try a PI base PABX like this
>
>https://magpi.raspberrypi.com/articles/raspberry-pi-telephone-exchange
>
>which has complex logic such as mentioned elsewhere.
>
>https://www.voip-info.org/asterisk-dialplan-patterns/
>
>I guess with VOIP phones the only extra cost is a PI.
>
I don't want to go for huge complication but it would be convenient to
be able to dial the local numbers. Why does the software AIUI ask for
the country and area codes if the latter cannot be used? Would there
not be a market for a software package to restore this familiarity?

On 06/12/2023 08:56, Marco Moock wrote:
> With ISDN (even when subscriber line is analog), this started to be
> computer-controlled and it was possible to router certain calls to
> other exchanges (from other carriers) based on a routing table.

Translation of groups of digits to the actual, step by step, routing
codes started with Strowger exchanges, e.g. with the London director
exchanges, so predates computer control. I think common control started
with crossbar.

On the other hand, the original signalling system 7 systems digital
systems (of which ISDN it the direct consumer digital interface) only
looked at the area code until the final destination exchange.

The ability to translate whole numbers is rather more recent, and based
on increasing computing power.

> The old system of the area codes still exists because people can keep
> their numbers

It still exists, but has moved up to the international level. One
limitation is that ownership of numbers by operators is naturally
distributed. I don't know if there is currently a UK database, or there
is something like mobile phone HLRs, where the originating exchange asks
the original owner of the number, where to route it. (HLRs are to do
with the routing to the operator where the phone currently resides,
rather than the one that currently owns it. There was some sort of
overlay added for that, but I don't know the exact current arrangements,
even for UK mobile phones.

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> It still exists, but has moved up to the international level. One
> limitation is that ownership of numbers by operators is naturally
> distributed. I don't know if there is currently a UK database, or there
> is something like mobile phone HLRs, where the originating exchange asks
> the original owner of the number, where to route it. (HLRs are to do
> with the routing to the operator where the phone currently resides,
> rather than the one that currently owns it. There was some sort of
> overlay added for that, but I don't know the exact current arrangements,
> even for UK mobile phones.

I'm not very familiar, but I think it works via the HLR type method. When
calling a number that was originally BT, the call is first routed to
BT/Openreach. BT/OR then forward the call on to whoever is currently
registered as holder of the number. (By call, I mean the signalling. I
assume the audio goes direct once the connection is established)

If you port the number, your new provider needs to inform whoever owns the
number range of the new route. The troubles come when the original owner
doesn't have a porting agreement with the new (or old) provider.

(probably everyone has a porting arrangement with BT and can take on BT
numbers, but smaller telcos may not have porting arrangements with each
other. A&A say it will be difficult to port out their numbers, presumably
because of this)

Theo

On 06 Dec 2023 15:36:54 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>> It still exists, but has moved up to the international level. One
>> limitation is that ownership of numbers by operators is naturally
>> distributed. I don't know if there is currently a UK database, or there
>> is something like mobile phone HLRs, where the originating exchange asks
>> the original owner of the number, where to route it. (HLRs are to do
>> with the routing to the operator where the phone currently resides,
>> rather than the one that currently owns it. There was some sort of
>> overlay added for that, but I don't know the exact current arrangements,
>> even for UK mobile phones.
>
>I'm not very familiar, but I think it works via the HLR type method. When
>calling a number that was originally BT, the call is first routed to
>BT/Openreach. BT/OR then forward the call on to whoever is currently
>registered as holder of the number. (By call, I mean the signalling. I
>assume the audio goes direct once the connection is established)
>
>If you port the number, your new provider needs to inform whoever owns the
>number range of the new route. The troubles come when the original owner
>doesn't have a porting agreement with the new (or old) provider.

What are the practicalities if the old and new provider are the same?
My plan is to move to VOIP then move my broadband to my new address.
First I was told the move to VOIP had to be completed first, then I
was told both could be done at the same time.

>
>(probably everyone has a porting arrangement with BT and can take on BT
>numbers, but smaller telcos may not have porting arrangements with each
>other. A&A say it will be difficult to port out their numbers, presumably
>because of this)
>
>Theo

On Tue 05/12/2023 23:39, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>
> One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
> do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
> beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.
>
> Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
> complicated setting it up.
>

Have to disagree with you Brian. You are talking about the Dial Plan
which does all the conversions and prefixes. Believe me Scott it is not
difficult to do, there's plenty of ready made plans on line but there's
also lots of information on how to write it as well. The only bit you
need to do is get the various checks that it does in the right order.
Your example of adding 0141 needs to come last after all other tests
have been done and in effect failed. Since 101 will be caught earlier it
will be dialled direct long before the test for local numbers to add
0141 is reached.
If you want help just come back here.

On Wed 06/12/2023 15:52, Scott wrote:
> On 06 Dec 2023 15:36:54 +0000 (GMT), Theo
> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>> It still exists, but has moved up to the international level. One
>>> limitation is that ownership of numbers by operators is naturally
>>> distributed. I don't know if there is currently a UK database, or there
>>> is something like mobile phone HLRs, where the originating exchange asks
>>> the original owner of the number, where to route it. (HLRs are to do
>>> with the routing to the operator where the phone currently resides,
>>> rather than the one that currently owns it. There was some sort of
>>> overlay added for that, but I don't know the exact current arrangements,
>>> even for UK mobile phones.
>>
>> I'm not very familiar, but I think it works via the HLR type method. When
>> calling a number that was originally BT, the call is first routed to
>> BT/Openreach. BT/OR then forward the call on to whoever is currently
>> registered as holder of the number. (By call, I mean the signalling. I
>> assume the audio goes direct once the connection is established)
>>
>> If you port the number, your new provider needs to inform whoever owns the
>> number range of the new route. The troubles come when the original owner
>> doesn't have a porting agreement with the new (or old) provider.
>
> What are the practicalities if the old and new provider are the same?
> My plan is to move to VOIP then move my broadband to my new address.
> First I was told the move to VOIP had to be completed first, then I
> was told both could be done at the same time.
>
>>

There is no association between VoIP and broadband. If you have
broadband with a provider it should not cease operation when the
broadband is moved from one location to another - although it would be
wise to tell them what you are doing or want to do so that they don't
terminate it.
I would guess, if you ask nicely, that they should be able to provide
broadband to both locations simultaneously on the day(s) that you are
moving, then cease the old service afterwards.
Other possibility of course is to change VoIP provider, then there are
no issues?

Simple answer - talk to them.

On 06/12/2023 12:11, Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 11:17:06 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 06/12/2023 10:06, Scott wrote:
>>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 23:39:05 +0000, Brian Gregory
>>> <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
>>>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>>>>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>>>>
>>>> One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
>>>> do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
>>>> beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.
>>>>
>>>> Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
>>>> complicated setting it up.
>>>
>>> It it's complicated, would technical support do it for me?
>>
>> When I did a little technical support of a business VOIP system we had
>> many dialing rules in place. I don't think VOIP providers are going to
>> do this. Most folks either have the number in a memory or just dial a
>> number from an advert, business card or whatever in which case it will
>> be the full number.
>>
>> If you really want complexity then try a PI base PABX like this
>>
>> https://magpi.raspberrypi.com/articles/raspberry-pi-telephone-exchange
>>
>> which has complex logic such as mentioned elsewhere.
>>
>> https://www.voip-info.org/asterisk-dialplan-patterns/
>>
>> I guess with VOIP phones the only extra cost is a PI.
>>
> I don't want to go for huge complication but it would be convenient to
> be able to dial the local numbers. Why does the software AIUI ask for
> the country and area codes if the latter cannot be used? Would there
> not be a market for a software package to restore this familiarity?
I doubt it, most I seldom dial a number, they are a all in the address
book. If its not I usually use my mobile...

Dave

On 06/12/2023 18:32, Woody wrote:
> There is no association between VoIP and broadband.

There is no *intrinsic* association.

However like trying to access - say an SMTP relay in one ISP whilst on
another's broadband - you may simply be firewalled out.

If you have
> broadband with a provider it should not cease operation when the
> broadband is moved from one location to another

Change location, no, change ISP though and it will almost certainly
vanish if it is with that ISP.

OTOH if they are simply reselling an openreach service it may not.

- although it would be
> wise to tell them what you are doing or want to do so that they don't
> terminate it.

--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 17:02:05 +0000, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Tue 05/12/2023 23:39, Brian Gregory wrote:
>> On 05/12/2023 10:59, Scott wrote:
>>> I think I get it. Call the cops on 101. The kit converts to 0141101
>>> and the call fails. I am now wondering about setting one of the preset
>>> buttons to 0141 so I can simply press it first for local calls.
>>
>> One would hope that if you wished, and your VOIP provider didn't already
>> do it, you could set your equipment to add 0141 only before a numbers
>> beginning with 2 to 9. 999 would have to be separately recognized.
>>
>> Both the ATA and the VOIP phone I own can do all that but it's quite
>> complicated setting it up.
>>
>
>Have to disagree with you Brian. You are talking about the Dial Plan
>which does all the conversions and prefixes. Believe me Scott it is not
>difficult to do, there's plenty of ready made plans on line but there's
>also lots of information on how to write it as well. The only bit you
>need to do is get the various checks that it does in the right order.
>Your example of adding 0141 needs to come last after all other tests
>have been done and in effect failed. Since 101 will be caught earlier it
>will be dialled direct long before the test for local numbers to add
>0141 is reached.
>If you want help just come back here.

Thanks very much. I may just do that!

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:32:47 +0000, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Wed 06/12/2023 15:52, Scott wrote:
>> On 06 Dec 2023 15:36:54 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It still exists, but has moved up to the international level. One
>>>> limitation is that ownership of numbers by operators is naturally
>>>> distributed. I don't know if there is currently a UK database, or there
>>>> is something like mobile phone HLRs, where the originating exchange asks
>>>> the original owner of the number, where to route it. (HLRs are to do
>>>> with the routing to the operator where the phone currently resides,
>>>> rather than the one that currently owns it. There was some sort of
>>>> overlay added for that, but I don't know the exact current arrangements,
>>>> even for UK mobile phones.
>>>
>>> I'm not very familiar, but I think it works via the HLR type method. When
>>> calling a number that was originally BT, the call is first routed to
>>> BT/Openreach. BT/OR then forward the call on to whoever is currently
>>> registered as holder of the number. (By call, I mean the signalling. I
>>> assume the audio goes direct once the connection is established)
>>>
>>> If you port the number, your new provider needs to inform whoever owns the
>>> number range of the new route. The troubles come when the original owner
>>> doesn't have a porting agreement with the new (or old) provider.
>>
>> What are the practicalities if the old and new provider are the same?
>> My plan is to move to VOIP then move my broadband to my new address.
>> First I was told the move to VOIP had to be completed first, then I
>> was told both could be done at the same time.
>>>
>There is no association between VoIP and broadband. If you have
>broadband with a provider it should not cease operation when the
>broadband is moved from one location to another - although it would be
>wise to tell them what you are doing or want to do so that they don't
>terminate it.
>I would guess, if you ask nicely, that they should be able to provide
>broadband to both locations simultaneously on the day(s) that you are
>moving, then cease the old service afterwards.
>Other possibility of course is to change VoIP provider, then there are
>no issues?
>
>Simple answer - talk to them.

Thanks - I have now. The basic explanation seems to be that if it is
my number I can move it anywhere I like (via VOIP) but I must not
relinquish the number first.

On 08/12/2023 12:22, Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:32:47 +0000, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed 06/12/2023 15:52, Scott wrote:
>>> On 06 Dec 2023 15:36:54 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> It still exists, but has moved up to the international level. One
>>>>> limitation is that ownership of numbers by operators is naturally
>>>>> distributed. I don't know if there is currently a UK database, or there
>>>>> is something like mobile phone HLRs, where the originating exchange asks
>>>>> the original owner of the number, where to route it. (HLRs are to do
>>>>> with the routing to the operator where the phone currently resides,
>>>>> rather than the one that currently owns it. There was some sort of
>>>>> overlay added for that, but I don't know the exact current arrangements,
>>>>> even for UK mobile phones.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not very familiar, but I think it works via the HLR type method. When
>>>> calling a number that was originally BT, the call is first routed to
>>>> BT/Openreach. BT/OR then forward the call on to whoever is currently
>>>> registered as holder of the number. (By call, I mean the signalling. I
>>>> assume the audio goes direct once the connection is established)
>>>>
>>>> If you port the number, your new provider needs to inform whoever owns the
>>>> number range of the new route. The troubles come when the original owner
>>>> doesn't have a porting agreement with the new (or old) provider.
>>>
>>> What are the practicalities if the old and new provider are the same?
>>> My plan is to move to VOIP then move my broadband to my new address.
>>> First I was told the move to VOIP had to be completed first, then I
>>> was told both could be done at the same time.
>>>>
>> There is no association between VoIP and broadband. If you have
>> broadband with a provider it should not cease operation when the
>> broadband is moved from one location to another - although it would be
>> wise to tell them what you are doing or want to do so that they don't
>> terminate it.
>> I would guess, if you ask nicely, that they should be able to provide
>> broadband to both locations simultaneously on the day(s) that you are
>> moving, then cease the old service afterwards.
>> Other possibility of course is to change VoIP provider, then there are
>> no issues?
>>
>> Simple answer - talk to them.
>
> Thanks - I have now. The basic explanation seems to be that if it is
> my number I can move it anywhere I like (via VOIP) but I must not
> relinquish the number first.

I believe you now have 30 days to recover it...

https://www.voipfone.co.uk/services/porting

Dave

David Wade wrote:

> I believe you now have 30 days to recover it...

I know that's OFCOM's position (recently at least) but it's worrying
when you see the 3rd sentence on EE's website

"You'll lose your home phone number
and your home phone will no longer work.

You won't be able to make or receive calls,
including to emergency services.

You won't be able to get your home phone number back.
You'll have to get a brand new number if you decide
you need a home phone in the future."

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 19:26:53 +0000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>David Wade wrote:
>
>> I believe you now have 30 days to recover it...
>
>I know that's OFCOM's position (recently at least) but it's worrying
>when you see the 3rd sentence on EE's website
>
>"You'll lose your home phone number
>and your home phone will no longer work.
>
>You won't be able to make or receive calls,
>including to emergency services.
>
>You won't be able to get your home phone number back.
>You'll have to get a brand new number if you decide
>you need a home phone in the future."

Could this pre-date the October changes?

On 08/12/2023 19:26, Andy Burns wrote:
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> I believe you now have 30 days to recover it...
>
> I know that's OFCOM's position (recently at least) but it's worrying
> when you see the 3rd sentence on EE's website
>
> "You'll lose your home phone number
> and your home phone will no longer work.
>
> You won't be able to make or receive calls,
> including to emergency services.
>
> You won't be able to get your home phone number back.
> You'll have to get a brand new number if you decide
> you need a home phone in the future."

Perhaps its time for a complaint to the ASA. I think EE/BT are keen to
tie people into its expensive, locked down Digital Voice service on long
contracts so they can make money for doing very little..

Dave

On 08/12/2023 21:56, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 19:26:53 +0000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> David Wade wrote:
>>
>>> I believe you now have 30 days to recover it...
>>
>> I know that's OFCOM's position (recently at least) but it's worrying
>> when you see the 3rd sentence on EE's website
>>
>> "You'll lose your home phone number
>> and your home phone will no longer work.
>>
>> You won't be able to make or receive calls,
>> including to emergency services.
>>
>> You won't be able to get your home phone number back.
>> You'll have to get a brand new number if you decide
>> you need a home phone in the future."
>
> Could this pre-date the October changes?

I checked. its still there today....

https://www.bt.com/broadband/twelve-month-deals

Dave