OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
feel that my question might stir things up!

As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning up the
poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put into
our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
please?

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <ud712p$1ulbs$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 10:48:57,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
>feel that my question might stir things up!
>
>As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
>rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning up the
>poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
>chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
>property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
>addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
>virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put into
>our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
>please?
>
>
I'm pretty sure they _can't_. The only way you can own one is to own
your own domain (and watch out for the companies that offer to "manage"
one for you: make sure it's _registered_ with the registration authority
in _your_ name, not theirs). Certainly, I'd imagine ones with ntl or
virgin as part of what comes after the @ belong to those companies.

Not _that_ many years ago, everyone who had a freeserve, fsworld,
fsbusiness, demon, or I think btopenworld (one of the BT ones, anyway),
lost them. I think most ISPs don't offer email addresses to new users -
they expect everyone to get a gmail one, which _is_ portable (until
Google decide to terminate them). I would strongly recommend (either
getting a gmail one or) planning the change to your own domain sooner
rather than later, in case - as may happen - NTL or Virgin (or their
heirs and successors) decide to terminate those addresses. (Most
companies that handle the hosting of a domain provide handling of emails
to that domain as part of the package - usually also a little webspace
too.)

Telling all your contacts a new email address is tedious; partly email
contacts (if/when it happens, send the "this is my new email address"
messages from the _old_ one during the overlap period: that way, you can
see which of your contacts send the "I have noted your new address"
reply _to your old address_ [i. e. they haven't]), and partly companies,
especially if they use your email address _as_ your customer reference
(the General Record Office do, for example, and the Land Registry), in
which case you have no option but to open a new account.

If you fall out with the hosting company, then provided you've made sure
the domain registration is in your name, you can transfer the hosting to
another company and keep the domain (and thus addresses), so the whole
pain of telling everyone your new one only has to be done once.

I've taken to keeping a little old camera/camcorder/recorder (a little
device I bought years ago: about the size of a packet of fags, it is
shaped like a mini camcorder, and that's its default mode, but it can
also be used as a stills camera, and a sound-only recorder) to hand, to
use when chatting to anyone who comes to the door. I think your BT
person would get into trouble.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

User Error: Replace user, hit any key to continue.

On 05/09/2023 15:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ud712p$1ulbs$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 10:48:57,
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>> OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
>> feel that my question might stir things up!
>>
>> As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
>> rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning
>> up the
>> poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
>> chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
>> property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
>> addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
>> virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put
>> into
>> our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
>> please?
>>
>>
> I'm pretty sure they _can't_. The only way you can own one is to own
> your own domain (and watch out for the companies that offer to "manage"
> one for you: make sure it's _registered_ with the registration authority
> in _your_ name, not theirs). Certainly, I'd imagine ones with ntl or
> virgin as part of what comes after the @ belong to those companies.
>
> Not _that_ many years ago, everyone who had a freeserve, fsworld,
> fsbusiness, demon, or I think btopenworld (one of the BT ones, anyway),
> lost them. I think most ISPs don't offer email addresses to new users -
> they expect everyone to get a gmail one, which _is_ portable (until
> Google decide to terminate them). I would strongly recommend (either
> getting a gmail one or) planning the change to your own domain sooner
> rather than later, in case - as may happen - NTL or Virgin (or their
> heirs and successors) decide to terminate those addresses. (Most
> companies that handle the hosting of a domain provide handling of emails
> to that domain as part of the package - usually also a little webspace
> too.)
>
> Telling all your contacts a new email address is tedious; partly email
> contacts (if/when it happens, send the "this is my new email address"
> messages from the _old_ one during the overlap period: that way, you can
> see which of your contacts send the "I have noted your new address"
> reply _to your old address_ [i. e. they haven't]), and partly companies,
> especially if they use your email address _as_ your customer reference
> (the General Record Office do, for example, and the Land Registry), in
> which case you have no option but to open a new account.

It is indeed tedious, but there are two things you will be able to do
which should help: firstly, if you are writing from your old email
address, set the 'reply-to' field with your new address, which should
ensure that if they reply themselves it will come straight into the new
inbox.

Secondly, set up a forwarder from the old to the new address, so that
you get all the email written to the old address into your new inbox,
from which you can reply using the new one.

--
Kate B

In message <klou8lFfit6U1@mid.individual.net> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023
16:02:47, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>On 05/09/2023 15:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
[]
>> Telling all your contacts a new email address is tedious; partly
[]
>It is indeed tedious, but there are two things you will be able to do
>which should help: firstly, if you are writing from your old email
>address, set the 'reply-to' field with your new address, which should
>ensure that if they reply themselves it will come straight into the new
>inbox.

That has its pros and cons: the main con is that those who don't get a
round tuit, won't change their address book. That's fine for when
they're _replying_ to emails you've sent them, but should they decide to
email you out of the blue - they've heard about a programme or offer
they think you'd be interested in, or want to tell you someone (or they
themselves) has died/recovered/whatever, they'll just use your old
address.

For the specific case of the email telling them the new address, I
_would_ send it from the old one, and say something like "please amend
your address book and then send me a message"; that way you can _see_ if
they say "will do", but just hit "reply" to do so! I kept a table (what
some people think has to be a spreadsheet) of who I'd told, when, and
whether they were using the new address. (It starts with everybody you
know: within reason, you can delete people from it as soon as they've
sent you a non-reply email to your new address.) After a while,
depending how you feel, you could even set an auto-responder on the old
address that sends a message of the "messages to this address are no
longer read - the new one is ..." - or, pretend to do so!
>
>Secondly, set up a forwarder from the old to the new address, so that
>you get all the email written to the old address into your new inbox,
>from which you can reply using the new one.
>
Yes, certainly do that, though ideally do it in some way that highlights
_to you_ that that's what's happening. If you set up your own domain,
say elvira.com, you can usually have infinite variations before the @,
so you might set your normal email as Kate@elvira.com, but have emails
to the old address forwarded to oldKate@elvira.com, so you know.
>
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Who's General Failure & why's he reading my disk? (Stolen from another .sig)

On 05/09/2023 11:48, Mike McMillan wrote:
> OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
> feel that my question might stir things up!
>
> As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
> rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning up the
> poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
> chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
> property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
> addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
> virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put into
> our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
> please?
>
>

I used to use btinternet.com email addresses. When I left them I had an
option to keep those addresses, at a price. I believe that there were a
lot of complaints about this charge and there was a change in the
law/ofcom rules, some time after that, to say that people should be
allowed to keep email addresses for free. Anyway, this is now the case
for BT addresses, but you are very restricted in how you access them,
and I think they will disappear if you don't access them frequently
enough. I suspect that something similar would apply to other flavours
of email address.

--
CaroleT

On 05/09/2023 15:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ud712p$1ulbs$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 10:48:57,
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>> OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
>> feel that my question might stir things up!
>>
>> As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
>> rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning
>> up the
>> poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
>> chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
>> property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
>> addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
>> virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put
>> into
>> our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
>> please?
>>
>>
> I'm pretty sure they _can't_. The only way you can own one is to own
> your own domain (and watch out for the companies that offer to "manage"
> one for you: make sure it's _registered_ with the registration authority
> in _your_ name, not theirs). Certainly, I'd imagine ones with ntl or
> virgin as part of what comes after the @ belong to those companies.

I think the rules vary from ISP to ISP but, from what I can see, Virgin
will allow you to keep your old address for 90 days, after which they
will delete it.

<https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/guides/how-do-I-keep-my-email-address-if-I-change-providers/>

> Not _that_ many years ago, everyone who had a freeserve, fsworld,
> fsbusiness, demon, or I think btopenworld (one of the BT ones, anyway),
> lost them. I think most ISPs don't offer email addresses to new users -
> they expect everyone to get a gmail one, which _is_ portable (until
> Google decide to terminate them). I would strongly recommend (either
> getting a gmail one or) planning the change to your own domain sooner
> rather than later, in case - as may happen - NTL or Virgin (or their
> heirs and successors) decide to terminate those addresses. (Most
> companies that handle the hosting of a domain provide handling of emails
> to that domain as part of the package - usually also a little webspace
> too.)

I would second the suggestion of getting your own domain, so that you
have control of your email address. I'm not convinced that a gmail
address really counts as portable though. Yes, it's independent of your
ISP but it does tie you to using gmail as your email provider. At the
moment, gmail are pretty good, so emails sent to my domain are forwarded
to my gmail account. If this changes though, I can simply update the
forwarding and redirect them to the email provider of my choice.

....
> If you fall out with the hosting company, then provided you've made sure
> the domain registration is in your name, you can transfer the hosting to
> another company and keep the domain (and thus addresses), so the whole
> pain of telling everyone your new one only has to be done once.
>

Thinking of that, does anyone have any recommendations for good domain
hosts? I've had occasional problems with emails sent to my current host
(TSOHOST) being bounced[1] so I'm thinking of moving. I don't have any
webspace to worry about, so I'm just looking for someone to host my
domain and forward emails to the appropriate place.

It's good to be back on umra, after a few months absence, trying to
manage my activity levels better and trying to cut down the amount of
energy I was using online. I'm still trying to get my activity levels
right but at least some parts of the online world are well worth the
energy ;)

[1] Including at the moment. No mails appear to be getting through to
my domain today and I've heard from three people who've had emails
bounced back :(

--
Best wishes, Serena
Q. What do you get from nervous cows?
A. Milk shakes!

On 05/09/2023 20:54, Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> On 05/09/2023 15:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <ud712p$1ulbs$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 10:48:57,
>> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>>> OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
>>> feel that my question might stir things up!
>>>
>>> As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
>>> rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning
>>> up the
>>> poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we
>>> ‘got
>>> chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
>>> property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
>>> addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
>>> virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be
>>> put into
>>> our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
>>> please?
>>>
>>>
>> I'm pretty sure they _can't_. The only way you can own one is to own
>> your own domain (and watch out for the companies that offer to
>> "manage" one for you: make sure it's _registered_ with the
>> registration authority in _your_ name, not theirs). Certainly, I'd
>> imagine ones with ntl or virgin as part of what comes after the @
>> belong to those companies.
>
> I think the rules vary from ISP to ISP but, from what I can see, Virgin
> will allow you to keep your old address for 90 days, after which they
> will delete it.
>
> <https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/guides/how-do-I-keep-my-email-address-if-I-change-providers/>
>
>
>> Not _that_ many years ago, everyone who had a freeserve, fsworld,
>> fsbusiness, demon, or I think btopenworld (one of the BT ones,
>> anyway), lost them. I think most ISPs don't offer email addresses to
>> new users - they expect everyone to get a gmail one, which _is_
>> portable (until Google decide to terminate them). I would strongly
>> recommend (either getting a gmail one or) planning the change to your
>> own domain sooner rather than later, in case - as may happen - NTL or
>> Virgin (or their heirs and successors) decide to terminate those
>> addresses. (Most companies that handle the hosting of a domain provide
>> handling of emails to that domain as part of the package - usually
>> also a little webspace too.)
>
> I would second the suggestion of getting your own domain, so that you
> have control of your email address.  I'm not convinced that a gmail
> address really counts as portable though.  Yes, it's independent of your
> ISP but it does tie you to using gmail as your email provider.  At the
> moment, gmail are pretty good, so emails sent to my domain are forwarded
> to my gmail account.  If this changes though, I can simply update the
> forwarding and redirect them to the email provider of my choice.
>
>
> ...
>> If you fall out with the hosting company, then provided you've made
>> sure the domain registration is in your name, you can transfer the
>> hosting to another company and keep the domain (and thus addresses),
>> so the whole pain of telling everyone your new one only has to be done
>> once.
>>
>
>
> Thinking of that, does anyone have any recommendations for good domain
> hosts?  I've had occasional problems with emails sent to my current host
> (TSOHOST) being bounced[1]  so I'm thinking of moving.  I don't have any
> webspace to worry about, so I'm just looking for someone to host my
> domain and forward emails to the appropriate place.
>
>
> It's good to be back on umra, after a few months absence, trying to
> manage my activity levels better and trying to cut down the amount of
> energy I was using online.  I'm still trying to get my activity levels
> right but at least some parts of the online world are well worth the
> energy ;)
>
>
>
>
> [1]  Including at the moment.  No mails appear to be getting through to
> my domain today and I've heard from three people who've had emails
> bounced back :(
>
>

I use EUKHost for cockaigne and Tsohost for one of the charities I help.
I have disabled Spamassassin which was an optional extra on both, but
they both still use a filter called Spamhaus at the server level which
blocks emails before they ever get to your email programme. A lot of
mail providers use Spamhaus and it's a nuisance since it frequently has
fits of uber-nannying. If your provider allows access through cPanel or
similar you can often look at what's been bounced via the Track Delivery
facility and sometimes it's possible to whitelist addresses or domains.

--
Kate B

In message <ud811i$1t174$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 20:54:25,
Serena Blanchflower <nospam@blanchflower.me.uk> writes
[]
>I would second the suggestion of getting your own domain, so that you
>have control of your email address. I'm not convinced that a gmail
>address really counts as portable though. Yes, it's independent of
>your ISP but it does tie you to using gmail as your email provider. At

It also doesn't look very professional. Probably just a matter of vanity
for most private accounts (like mine), but I'd generally assume that
certain decisions have been made if I was dealing with a company that
worked using gmail accounts.

>the moment, gmail are pretty good, so emails sent to my domain are
>forwarded to my gmail account. If this changes though, I can simply
>update the forwarding and redirect them to the email provider of my
>choice.
>
Indeed: I think all hosting companies provide a forwarding function. The
advantage there is you can change where it forwards to as often as you
like, but your correspondents don't have to be told to use a new
address. (I still actually collect all my mail from PlusNet, though I
don't host with them.)
[]
>Thinking of that, does anyone have any recommendations for good domain
>hosts? I've had occasional problems with emails sent to my current
>host (TSOHOST) being bounced[1] so I'm thinking of moving. I don't
>have any webspace to worry about, so I'm just looking for someone to
>host my domain and forward emails to the appropriate place.
>
I rather fear hosting companies are like internet service providers:
they start off good but deteriorate. When I went that way, I started
with tsoHost (incidentally, the name is because "we know hosting
backwards and forwards" or something like that!) from recommendation - I
think from DIST the old Turnpike 'group; their service was never bad,
but I found it increasingly difficult to actually _configure_, and
finally left them when they completely stopped telephone support. I'm
now with Krystal, who seem OK - at least they have 'phone support. Their
basic amethyst service is more than enough for me.
[]
>[1] Including at the moment. No mails appear to be getting through to
>my domain today and I've heard from three people who've had emails
>bounced back :(
>
Touch wood, I've not had any problems with _incoming_ emails. I had a
problem with _outgoing_ ones to gmail addresses: this turned out to be
because I post via the PlusNet server, and gmail interrogate your host
to see if the server you're using is OK. There's a configuration line
somewhere in the setup at the hosting provider that lists the servers
you use; they automatically put their own mail server in it, but I had
to (well, get them to help me to!) add the PlusNet one to that line, to
stop my emails to gmail addresses bouncing. I suppose it's fair enough,
gmail are protecting their customers from emails sent "From" one place
but via a different server.
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Better to be a free dog than a chained lion - "casandra" on MSE, 2016-6-29

In message <ud7kpf$20mhn$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 17:25:21,
carolet <carolet.umrat@gmail.com> writes
[]
>I used to use btinternet.com email addresses. When I left them I had an
>option to keep those addresses, at a price. I believe that there were a
>lot of complaints about this charge and there was a change in the
>law/ofcom rules, some time after that, to say that people should be
>allowed to keep email addresses for free. Anyway, this is now the case

Seems a bit unfair on the providers - they'd have to keep equipment up
and running indefinitely for no pay. Maybe the law change said that they
couldn't _charge_ for such forwarding, which would explain why several
ISPs withdrew such emails altogether within about a year. (I think
ntlworld ones went at about the same time.)

>for BT addresses, but you are very restricted in how you access them,
>and I think they will disappear if you don't access them frequently

Ah, like fobile moan numbers.

>enough. I suspect that something similar would apply to other flavours
>of email address.
>
>
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Better to be a free dog than a chained lion - "casandra" on MSE, 2016-6-29

On 06/09/2023 06:17, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ud7kpf$20mhn$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 17:25:21,
> carolet <carolet.umrat@gmail.com> writes
> []
>> I used to use btinternet.com email addresses. When I left them I had
>> an option to keep those addresses, at a price. I believe that there
>> were a lot of complaints about this charge and there was a change in
>> the law/ofcom rules, some time after that, to say that people should
>> be allowed to keep email addresses for free. Anyway, this is now the case
>
> Seems a bit unfair on the providers - they'd have to keep equipment up
> and running indefinitely for no pay. Maybe the law change said that they
> couldn't _charge_ for such forwarding, which would explain why several
> ISPs withdrew such emails altogether within about a year. (I think
> ntlworld ones went at about the same time.)
>
>> for BT addresses, but you are very restricted in how you access them,
>> and I think they will disappear if you don't access them frequently
>
> Ah, like fobile moan numbers.
>
>> enough. I suspect that something similar would apply to other flavours
>> of email address.

I used BTinternet as my ISP until 2003.
I then moved elsewhere, but I still have a BTInternet email address from
that time and have not paid a penny for it during that 20 year period.
I log into it every few weeks, but have long since transferred any
important 'stuff' to my current email address. If there are limits on
how I can access the account, those limits have not impinged on me.

In message <cP5KM.432780$Vfvc.56119@fx09.ams1> at Wed, 6 Sep 2023
22:04:07, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
[]
>I used BTinternet as my ISP until 2003.
>I then moved elsewhere, but I still have a BTInternet email address
>from that time and have not paid a penny for it during that 20 year
>period. I log into it every few weeks, but have long since transferred

When you say you "log into it", I presume you are using a webmail
interface, rather than an email client like Turnpike, Agent,
Thunderbird, and so on.

>any important 'stuff' to my current email address. If there are limits
>on how I can access the account, those limits have not impinged on me.
>
Do you still actually find any emails?

I guess some providers have decided to keep the old accounts open as the
cost to them of doing so (which is presumably fairly minuscule) is less
than the loss of goodwill they'd experience if they closed them.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Chuck Berry was once asked what he thought of Elvis Presley and he said, "He
got what he wanted, but he lost what he had." [Quoted by Anne Widdicombe, in
Radio Times 8-14 October 2011.]

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <cP5KM.432780$Vfvc.56119@fx09.ams1> at Wed, 6 Sep 2023
> 22:04:07, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
> []
>> I used BTinternet as my ISP until 2003.
>> I then moved elsewhere, but I still have a BTInternet email address
>> from that time and have not paid a penny for it during that 20 year
>> period. I log into it every few weeks, but have long since transferred
>
> When you say you "log into it", I presume you are using a webmail
> interface, rather than an email client like Turnpike, Agent,
> Thunderbird, and so on.
>
>> any important 'stuff' to my current email address. If there are limits
>> on how I can access the account, those limits have not impinged on me.
>>
> Do you still actually find any emails?
>
> I guess some providers have decided to keep the old accounts open as the
> cost to them of doing so (which is presumably fairly minuscule) is less
> than the loss of goodwill they'd experience if they closed them.

Cynically …. Goodwill, GOODWILL!????

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <udc3vm$2ubdt$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 7 Sep 2023 09:09:10,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>> I guess some providers have decided to keep the old accounts open as the
>> cost to them of doing so (which is presumably fairly minuscule) is less
>> than the loss of goodwill they'd experience if they closed them.
>
>Cynically …. Goodwill, GOODWILL!????
>
(-: - Not the general term, but I remember it as a specific term from
O-level economics.

I think most of the companies that ditched the maintenance of old email
accounts are companies whose name was disappearing anyway, due to having
been taken over by a company that did not intend to continue using the
name, such as NTL, and one I've been trying to remember that had
something like loo in it, like (but not) waterloo. (I think Demon was
the most extreme case - they became part of [not necessarily in this
order] Cable & Wireless, Thus, I think another one, and finally
Vodafone, who mostly had no idea they owned Demon.) Companies that
intended to keep using a name probably decided it wouldn't "look good"
(with at least some commercial repercussion) if they killed off old
accounts. Of course, companies do other unpopular things, but this one
maybe cost less to keep going than some other things they do.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Less rules means fewer grammar? - Marjorie in UMRA, 2014-1-28 13:14

On 07/09/2023 11:10, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <udc3vm$2ubdt$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 7 Sep 2023 09:09:10,
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> []
>>> I guess some providers have decided to keep the old accounts open as the
>>> cost to them of doing so (which is presumably fairly minuscule) is less
>>> than the loss of goodwill they'd experience if they closed them.
>>
>> Cynically …. Goodwill, GOODWILL!????
>>
> (-: - Not the general term, but I remember it as a specific term from
> O-level economics.
>
> I think most of the companies that ditched the maintenance of old email
> accounts are companies whose name was disappearing anyway, due to having
> been taken over by a company that did not intend to continue using the
> name, such as NTL, and one I've been trying to remember that had
> something like loo in it, like (but not) waterloo. (I think Demon was
> the most extreme case - they became part of [not necessarily in this
> order] Cable & Wireless, Thus, I think another one, and finally
> Vodafone, who mostly had no idea they owned Demon.) Companies that
> intended to keep using a name probably decided it wouldn't "look good"
> (with at least some commercial repercussion) if they killed off old
> accounts. Of course, companies do other unpopular things, but this one
> maybe cost less to keep going than some other things they do.

My email address has changed several times, only once of my own doing.
AOL was my my first ISP, followed by Freeserve, then whatever EE was
called back then, followed by NTL and Virgin Media. When VM decided they
didn't want to do it any more, I took up with Plusnet. The chap I spoke
to advised me not to take up an email address with them, but use Gmail
instead, which I did, and have been using it for just over four years.
Plusnet have decided not to do it anymore, so my account is moving back
to EE, which doesn't seem to change anything as far as I can see.

In message <klue81Ff3v6U1@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 7 Sep 2023
18:06:08, Steve Hague <stevehague82@gmail.com> writes
[]
>My email address has changed several times, only once of my own doing.
>AOL was my my first ISP, followed by Freeserve, then whatever EE was
>called back then, followed by NTL and Virgin Media. When VM decided

So that's several times you've had to tell all your contacts a new email
(and make sure they're using it!).

>they didn't want to do it any more, I took up with Plusnet. The chap I

When you say "they didn't want to do it any more", do you mean Virgin
decided to stop doing email, or stop doing broadband altogether? I
thought they were still doing broadband.

>spoke to advised me not to take up an email address with them, but use
>Gmail instead, which I did, and have been using it for just over four

I knew PlusNet weren't offering new customers a PlusNet email address
unless they asked for it, and sounds like they're still doing that (i.
e. providing it only to those who do ask for it, but advising against
it).

>years. Plusnet have decided not to do it anymore, so my account is
>moving back to EE, which doesn't seem to change anything as far as I
>can see.

I'm confused: you moved to Gmail at the time you moved (something?) to
PlusNet. So all you're getting from PlusNet is the broadband? I've not
heard they're stopping that - in fact I just signed up to another two
years on Monday! And assuming you're still using gmail, I'm wondering
what it is you've moved "back" to EE.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

it is easy to make up a lie, but it can take much more time and effort to
convincingly refute it. - Patrick Cockburn, i, 2016-9-24

On 07/09/2023 18:06, Steve Hague wrote:
>
> My email address has changed several times, only once of my own doing.
> AOL was my my first ISP, followed by Freeserve, then whatever EE was
> called back then, followed by NTL and Virgin Media. When VM decided they
> didn't want to do it any more, I took up with Plusnet. The chap I spoke
> to advised me not to take up an email address with them, but use Gmail
> instead, which I did, and have been using it for just over four years.

I had some problems with Demon a long time ago (I thought when it closed
by Google says that email service only closed a few years ago), I
decided that I wasn't going thru that kerfuffle again and switched to
gmail.
<fx: checks gmail messages> and I see that the earlies I have was Oct
2004. This was just as I was leaving Frod and retiring to Italy.

I didn't see the need for multiple addresses or an internet domain of my
own for me as a private individual, although I can see that is different
for people who are running a company or have a professional life.

So 19 years and counting and not had any problems. It's available
wherever I can get an internet connection and on any device. I know some
people are worried about privacy, but that's only because they don't
realise that their privacy is being breached everywhere else.

"Alexa, delete my internet history"
"Sorry Dave, I can't do that"

On 07/09/2023 09:45, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <cP5KM.432780$Vfvc.56119@fx09.ams1> at Wed, 6 Sep 2023
> 22:04:07, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
> []
>> I used BTinternet as my ISP until 2003.
>> I then moved elsewhere, but I still have a BTInternet email address
>> from that time and have not paid a penny for it during that 20 year
>> period. I log into it every few weeks, but have long since transferred
>
> When you say you "log into it", I presume you are using a webmail
> interface, rather than an email client like Turnpike, Agent,
> Thunderbird, and so on.

Correct.
>
>> any important 'stuff' to my current email address.  If there are
>> limits on how I can access the account, those limits have not impinged
>> on me.
>>
> Do you still actually find any emails?

Yes. I wouldn't bother if it was dormant.
>
> I guess some providers have decided to keep the old accounts open as the
> cost to them of doing so (which is presumably fairly minuscule) is less
> than the loss of goodwill they'd experience if they closed them.

It would be 'providers' plural, since at one point BT hived off their
email accounts onto Yahoo and later... dunno, but I'm fairly sure Yahoo
are no longer involved. I have no idea who runs it now, but it is still
there.

On 07/09/2023 18:06, Steve Hague wrote:
> On 07/09/2023 11:10, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <udc3vm$2ubdt$1@dont-email.me> at Thu, 7 Sep 2023 09:09:10,
>> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> []
>>>> I guess some providers have decided to keep the old accounts open as
>>>> the
>>>> cost to them of doing so (which is presumably fairly minuscule) is less
>>>> than the loss of goodwill they'd experience if they closed them.
>>>
>>> Cynically …. Goodwill, GOODWILL!????
>>>
>> (-: - Not the general term, but I remember it as a specific term from
>> O-level economics.
>>
>> I think most of the companies that ditched the maintenance of old
>> email accounts are companies whose name was disappearing anyway, due
>> to having been taken over by a company that did not intend to continue
>> using the name, such as NTL, and one I've been trying to remember that
>> had something like loo in it, like (but not) waterloo. (I think Demon
>> was the most extreme case - they became part of [not necessarily in
>> this order] Cable & Wireless, Thus, I think another one, and finally
>> Vodafone, who mostly had no idea they owned Demon.) Companies that
>> intended to keep using a name probably decided it wouldn't "look good"
>> (with at least some commercial repercussion) if they killed off old
>> accounts. Of course, companies do other unpopular things, but this one
>> maybe cost less to keep going than some other things they do.
>
> My email address has changed several times, only once of my own doing.
> AOL was my my first ISP, followed by Freeserve, then whatever EE was
> called back then, followed by NTL and Virgin Media. When VM decided they
> didn't want to do it any more, I took up with Plusnet. The chap I spoke
> to advised me not to take up an email address with them, but use Gmail
> instead, which I did, and have been using it for just over four years.
> Plusnet have decided not to do it anymore, so my account is moving back
> to EE, which doesn't seem to change anything as far as I can see.

IIRC, my first ISP and email provider was Red Hot Ant. They vanished
overnight under somewhat dubious circumstances.
I can't recall if I went directly from there to BT, or if there was an
intermediate step.

On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 5:24:38 AM UTC, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ud7kpf$20mhn$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 17:25:21,
> carolet <carole...@gmail.com> writes
> []
> >I used to use btinternet.com email addresses. When I left them I had an
> >option to keep those addresses, at a price. I believe that there were a
> >lot of complaints about this charge and there was a change in the
> >law/ofcom rules, some time after that, to say that people should be
> >allowed to keep email addresses for free. Anyway, this is now the case
> Seems a bit unfair on the providers - they'd have to keep equipment up
> and running indefinitely for no pay. Maybe the law change said that they
> couldn't _charge_ for such forwarding, which would explain why several
> ISPs withdrew such emails altogether within about a year. (I think
> ntlworld ones went at about the same time.)
<snip>

I think in the beginning Ofcom's premise was that since the email
accounts had been set up and had been running during a time when
the customer was paying and the ISP was supposedly running them
at a profit, the only costs to the host would be electricity and storage.
The cost of storing emails must be marginal compared to all the
things that ISPs now provide and charge for but since businesses
absolutely hate not to make a return on everything and cross-subsidy
is a dirty word in most circles, the requirement to maintain email
access seems to have been watered down to homeopathic levels.

When I left PlusNet, all my services were shuttered and barred
within minutes - minutes! - of the account expiring.

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca

In message <9f5f5244-976b-4c9f-b641-13237c2ca4f0n@googlegroups.com> at
Thu, 7 Sep 2023 13:33:44, Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> writes
>On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 5:24:380 >> In message <ud7kpf$20mhn$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 17:25:21,
>> carolet <carole...@gmail.com> writes
>> []
>> >I used to use btinternet.com email addresses. When I left them I had an
>> >option to keep those addresses, at a price. I believe that there were a
>> >lot of complaints about this charge and there was a change in the
>> >law/ofcom rules, some time after that, to say that people should be
>> >allowed to keep email addresses for free. Anyway, this is now the case
>> Seems a bit unfair on the providers - they'd have to keep equipment up
>> and running indefinitely for no pay. Maybe the law change said that they
>> couldn't _charge_ for such forwarding, which would explain why several
>> ISPs withdrew such emails altogether within about a year. (I think
>> ntlworld ones went at about the same time.)
><snip>
>
>I think in the beginning Ofcom's premise was that since the email
>accounts had been set up and had been running during a time when
>the customer was paying and the ISP was supposedly running them
>at a profit, the only costs to the host would be electricity and storage.

Somewhat more than that: domain maintenance. In order to keep going
emails like <username>@ntlworld.com, <anything>@username.demon.co.uk,
etc., they have to keep the ntlworld.com and demon.co.uk domains in
existence. OK, the registration fee to Nominet or whoever is negligible,
but it also involves keeping the machines running, or at least some
routing software and the people to maintain that.

>The cost of storing emails must be marginal compared to all the
>things that ISPs now provide and charge for but since businesses
>absolutely hate not to make a return on everything and cross-subsidy

They also really hate keeping old software (or similar, "systems" if you
like) going. When one of the big providers (e. g. of email software)
makes some change - such as requiring certain security practices - the
providers lie down and do what the software provider says. In the case
of security things, they can pretend to hide behind the security aspect,
but that's not their real reason.

>is a dirty word in most circles, the requirement to maintain email
>access seems to have been watered down to homeopathic levels.

I like it (-:
>
>When I left PlusNet, all my services were shuttered and barred
>within minutes - minutes! - of the account expiring.

Interesting to know in case I ever do.
>
>Nick
>nickodell49@yahoo.ca
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm not against women. Not often enough, anyway." - Groucho Marx

In message <l3qKM.568448$Fgta.273953@fx10.iad> at Thu, 7 Sep 2023
21:06:40, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
[]
>IIRC, my first ISP and email provider was Red Hot Ant. They vanished
>overnight under somewhat dubious circumstances.
>I can't recall if I went directly from there to BT, or if there was an
>intermediate step.

I was briefly with something that grew out of bulletin boards - might
have been fidonet, or that might have been something else. I think I may
have had one or two others before joining Demon (though I was never with
Compuserve or AOL). I stuck with the Demon address for a little while
after they hived off management of those addresses to some other company
whose name I forget, though left them a bit _before_ (Vodafone, as it
was by then!) closed the *.demon.co.uk addresses altogether - I left
when forgottenname played silly buggers with remaining Demon email
users.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm not against women. Not often enough, anyway." - Groucho Marx

On 7.9.23 18:06, Steve Hague wrote:
> Plusnet have decided not to do it anymore, so my account is moving back
> to EE, which doesn't seem to change anything as far as I can see.

Plusnet are not doing what any more please? They are my ISP for many
years and also supply this excellent (for some value of excellent)
usenet feed.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 14:28:46 +0100, krw <krw@whitnet.uk> wrote:

>On 7.9.23 18:06, Steve Hague wrote:
>> Plusnet have decided not to do it anymore, so my account is moving back
>> to EE, which doesn't seem to change anything as far as I can see.
>
>Plusnet are not doing what any more please? They are my ISP for many
>years and also supply this excellent (for some value of excellent)
>usenet feed.

I think Steve was saying
'My email address has changed several times, only once of my own
doing. AOL was my my first ISP, followed by Freeserve, then whatever
EE was called back then, followed by NTL and Virgin Media. When VM
decided they didn't want to do it any more, I took up with Plusnet.
The chap I spoke to advised me not to take up an email address with
them, but use Gmail instead, which I did, and have been using it for
just over four years. Plusnet have decided not to do it anymore, so my
account is moving back to EE, which doesn't seem to change anything as
far as I can see.'

Serena Blanchflower <nospam@blanchflower.me.uk> wrote:
> On 05/09/2023 15:01, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <ud712p$1ulbs$1@dont-email.me> at Tue, 5 Sep 2023 10:48:57,
>> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>>> OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
>>> feel that my question might stir things up!
>>>
>>> As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
>>> rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning
>>> up the
>>> poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
>>> chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
>>> property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
>>> addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
>>> virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put
>>> into
>>> our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
>>> please?
>>>
>>>
>> I'm pretty sure they _can't_. The only way you can own one is to own
>> your own domain (and watch out for the companies that offer to "manage"
>> one for you: make sure it's _registered_ with the registration authority
>> in _your_ name, not theirs). Certainly, I'd imagine ones with ntl or
>> virgin as part of what comes after the @ belong to those companies.
>
> I think the rules vary from ISP to ISP but, from what I can see, Virgin
> will allow you to keep your old address for 90 days, after which they
> will delete it.
>
> <https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/guides/how-do-I-keep-my-email-address-if-I-change-providers/>
>
>
>> Not _that_ many years ago, everyone who had a freeserve, fsworld,
>> fsbusiness, demon, or I think btopenworld (one of the BT ones, anyway),
>> lost them. I think most ISPs don't offer email addresses to new users -
>> they expect everyone to get a gmail one, which _is_ portable (until
>> Google decide to terminate them). I would strongly recommend (either
>> getting a gmail one or) planning the change to your own domain sooner
>> rather than later, in case - as may happen - NTL or Virgin (or their
>> heirs and successors) decide to terminate those addresses. (Most
>> companies that handle the hosting of a domain provide handling of emails
>> to that domain as part of the package - usually also a little webspace
>> too.)
>
> I would second the suggestion of getting your own domain, so that you
> have control of your email address. I'm not convinced that a gmail
> address really counts as portable though. Yes, it's independent of your
> ISP but it does tie you to using gmail as your email provider. At the
> moment, gmail are pretty good, so emails sent to my domain are forwarded
> to my gmail account. If this changes though, I can simply update the
> forwarding and redirect them to the email provider of my choice.
>
>
> ...
>> If you fall out with the hosting company, then provided you've made sure
>> the domain registration is in your name, you can transfer the hosting to
>> another company and keep the domain (and thus addresses), so the whole
>> pain of telling everyone your new one only has to be done once.
>>
>
>
> Thinking of that, does anyone have any recommendations for good domain
> hosts? I've had occasional problems with emails sent to my current host
> (TSOHOST) being bounced[1] so I'm thinking of moving. I don't have any
> webspace to worry about, so I'm just looking for someone to host my
> domain and forward emails to the appropriate place.
>
>
> It's good to be back on umra, after a few months absence, trying to
> manage my activity levels better and trying to cut down the amount of
> energy I was using online. I'm still trying to get my activity levels
> right but at least some parts of the online world are well worth the
> energy ;)
>
>
>
>
> [1] Including at the moment. No mails appear to be getting through to
> my domain today and I've heard from three people who've had emails
> bounced back :(
>
>

Welcome back mopmob!

Mrs McT

carolet <carolet.umrat@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/09/2023 11:48, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> OK, really, this is an EU question but I liked the hornet topicality and
>> feel that my question might stir things up!
>>
>> As Umrats know, we are with Virginontherediculous at present; I had a BT
>> rep at the dooe this morning informing me that they will be shinning up the
>> poles to do some work. He was obviously a sales person really and we ‘got
>> chatting’ during which time, he said that our email addresses are our
>> property and that even if we move from VOTR, we can take our email
>> addresses with us. Now, they variously end with ntlworld.com and
>> virginmedia.com. Do any Umrats know if such email addresses can be put into
>> our spotted handkerchiefs and totted over our shoulders to use elsewhere
>> please?
>>
>>
>
> I used to use btinternet.com email addresses. When I left them I had an
> option to keep those addresses, at a price. I believe that there were a
> lot of complaints about this charge and there was a change in the
> law/ofcom rules, some time after that, to say that people should be
> allowed to keep email addresses for free. Anyway, this is now the case
> for BT addresses, but you are very restricted in how you access them,
> and I think they will disappear if you don't access them frequently
> enough. I suspect that something similar would apply to other flavours
> of email address.
>
>
>

Having had my ntl spammed into eternity I *know* how tiresome it is. Over
the years, I’ve had to invest in a gmail once they refused to work with
only their own flavour. Had it not bern connected to voluntary work I’d
have said “knickers” or “nugger” and cut my losses.

Certainly I’m more inclined than ever to use gmail for all but official
info these days. Google is a ruddy PITA but I think after a decade I’ve
got it where I want it: not too intrusive.

Mrs McT