In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
[]
>> Thought somerRats might care to know that OE are willing to pay 3.93 pence
>> for every kW/h consumed between 00:30 and 01:00 tomorrow - there are a few
>> other times when plunge pricing applies tomorrow….
>>
>>
>
>I should hasten to add that this is only applicable to thoseRats who are on
>the Agile Tariff with Octopus Energy - guess who’s battery will be filling
>up?
>
Presumably this "plunge pricing" is because it's not economic to power
down some generating facilities for just half an hour (and no point in
doing so for wind ones if there is wind), and the country as a whole has
woefully inadequate storage capacity (basically, Dinorwic, the similar
one in Scotland, and some tiny batteries). We need to be building more
such capacity (if only to shut up the anti-wind and anti-solar wailers).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

aibohphobia, n., The fear of palindromes.

On 18/09/2023 00:51, Joe Kerr wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 19:57, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <ue732j$dlqo$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:39:15,
>> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>> []
>>> Our gas meter was situated on an outside wall and the ‘box’ was made
>>> using
>>> glass fibre so presumably no obstacle to those little radio waves
>>> allowing
>>> them to escape and find their target somewhere. The electricity meter is
>>> inside the house so I imagine the data signal is sent via the DNO’s
>>> facilities - but I’m not sure.
>>>
>> My understanding is that the data signal is sent from the electricity
>> meter over the mobile network (not sure which one - maybe any it can
>> get a signal to?), and it sends both lots of data; the gas meter only
>> talks to the electric meter, not the network, and has no electric
>> power of its own, so has to do so from a battery, which I think is
>> supposed to last about 10 years. (Among other things, that's why the
>> gas readout on the little display is only updated - because the meter
>> only communicates - a lot less often [half hourly?] than the electric.)
>>
>> Thinking about it, one household I manage might be due for a battery
>> replacement - I can't remember when it got a smart (though type 1)
>> meter, but quite a few years.
>
> My understanding (which could be wrong) is that the batteries are not
> replaceable, so it is new (refurbished?) meter. All in the interests of
> the environment of course.
>
I'm sure the battery _can_ be replaced - once the meter has been taken
back to... wherever they do work on smart meters.
The meter will then be put back into service somewhere else.
The meter may be recalibrated at the same time.

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 6:07:04 PM UTC+1, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1...@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
> >Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
> []
> >> Thought somerRats might care to know that OE are willing to pay 3.93 pence
> >> for every kW/h consumed between 00:30 and 01:00 tomorrow - there are a few
> >> other times when plunge pricing applies tomorrow….
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I should hasten to add that this is only applicable to thoseRats who are on
> >the Agile Tariff with Octopus Energy - guess who’s battery will be filling
> >up?
> >
> Presumably this "plunge pricing" is because it's not economic to power
> down some generating facilities for just half an hour (and no point in
> doing so for wind ones if there is wind), and the country as a whole has
> woefully inadequate storage capacity (basically, Dinorwic, the similar
> one in Scotland, and some tiny batteries). We need to be building more
> such capacity (if only to shut up the anti-wind and anti-solar wailers).

Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca

In message <50c2966d-3300-406c-a13b-ca0397529d90n@googlegroups.com> at
Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04, Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> writes
[]
>Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
>is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
>high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
[]
Relies on the car owners being willing. Since the main reluctance to
switch to electric cars is "range anxiety", the idea of losing even more
of your range - especially without knowing when it's going to be taken!
- isn't attractive. If there was even a _hint_ of making it compulsory,
they'd kill the electric car market overnight.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Intelligence isn't complete without the full picture and the full picture is
all about doubt. Otherwise, you go the way of George Bush. - baroness Eliza
Manningham-Buller (former head of MI5), Radio Times 3-9 September 2011.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2023 02:12:37 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> In message <50c2966d-3300-406c-a13b-ca0397529d90n@googlegroups.com> at
> Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04, Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> writes []
>>Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>>whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity is
>>cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in high
>>demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
> []
> Relies on the car owners being willing. Since the main reluctance to
> switch to electric cars is "range anxiety", the idea of losing even more
> of your range - especially without knowing when it's going to be taken!
> - isn't attractive. If there was even a _hint_ of making it compulsory,
> they'd kill the electric car market overnight.

Easily dealt with by setting a time by which the car must be fully
charged, e.g. 7:30 am, allowing it to charge / discharge as needed as long
as it's in a charged state by the prescribed time.

Technology to build "demand management" into devices like fridges,
freezers, aircon, and space heating has existed for decades, but it was
never mandatory and has no direct consumer benefit so it didn't happen.
Instead we have a capitalists' wet dream of price changes by the minute
with people expected to monitor prices and switch stuff on and off
accordingly.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

Jim Easterbrook <news@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2023 02:12:37 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>
>> In message <50c2966d-3300-406c-a13b-ca0397529d90n@googlegroups.com> at
>> Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04, Nick Odell <nickodell@bigfoot.com> writes []
>>> Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>>> whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity is
>>> cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in high
>>> demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
>> []
>> Relies on the car owners being willing. Since the main reluctance to
>> switch to electric cars is "range anxiety", the idea of losing even more
>> of your range - especially without knowing when it's going to be taken!
>> - isn't attractive. If there was even a _hint_ of making it compulsory,
>> they'd kill the electric car market overnight.
>
> Easily dealt with by setting a time by which the car must be fully
> charged, e.g. 7:30 am, allowing it to charge / discharge as needed as long
> as it's in a charged state by the prescribed time.
>
> Technology to build "demand management" into devices like fridges,
> freezers, aircon, and space heating has existed for decades, but it was
> never mandatory and has no direct consumer benefit so it didn't happen.
> Instead we have a capitalists' wet dream of price changes by the minute
> with people expected to monitor prices and switch stuff on and off
> accordingly.
>

There are API’s being employed to make the most of tariffs, I’d like to see
one for the Tesla Powerwall again; there was one of sorts: Tesla Energy
Plan was its’ name and was ‘sold’ on the basis of consumption and export
were the same price but, I think the other part of the service would have
been the access to stored energy in the battery being available when the
grid needed it most. I think there are some schemes in the states where
such resources are available to the DNO’s (but they have a different name
for them).

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
<nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 6:07:04?PM UTC+1, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1...@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
>> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
>> >Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>> []
>
>
>Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
>is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
>high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
>
>Nick
>nickodell49@yahoo.ca

So much of the time electric car owners would be unable to suddenly
get in the car and go somewhere? It takes around 12 hours to charge
ours,only just under half left, and we've got a bigger battery. You
can charge faster (10 mins) at the nearby BP outlet at the pub but
what if it's in use? And we'd have to have enough battery to get
there. Also all electric car batteries together would run the grid for
10 seconds apparently.

Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
> <nickodell@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 6:07:04?PM UTC+1, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1...@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
>>> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
>>>> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>> []
>>
>>
>> Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>> whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
>> is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
>> high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
>>
>> Nick
>> nickodell49@yahoo.ca
>
>
> So much of the time electric car owners would be unable to suddenly
> get in the car and go somewhere? It takes around 12 hours to charge
> ours,only just under half left, and we've got a bigger battery. You
> can charge faster (10 mins) at the nearby BP outlet at the pub but
> what if it's in use? And we'd have to have enough battery to get
> there. Also all electric car batteries together would run the grid for
> 10 seconds apparently.
>

It’s all about ironing out the peaks, ‘borrowing’ power from storage for a
short period of time could make a world of difference to demand during peak
demand and it is easier to extract that energy demand from storage (if
available of course!) than to crank up another generation plant that uses
coal. Hydroelectric plants can spin up in minutes but still not as quick as
connecting to battery supplies.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 18/09/2023 23:57, Nick Odell wrote:

>
> Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
> whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
> is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
> high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.

Ignorance speaks:

Wouldn't such a scheme have an impact on the lifespan of all those car
batteries? If they are being used to 'top up' the grid on a
'regular'[1] basis, would they not age must faster than they otherwise
would?
A car with aged batteries wouldn't have a high resale value.

[1] OK, not "regular", perhaps "frequent" is a better term.

On 16/09/2023 09:22, Vicky wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 07:41:01 -0000 (UTC), Chris
> <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/
>>>
>>> I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
>>> my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
>>> have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the
>>> bill, in fact never got it right, and I no longer trusted smart
>>> meters, and still couldn't have one anyway.
>>>
>>> Now we're with Octopus they nag me with every log in to get one. I
>>> don't know if I can now, as same gas meter cover, but I don't want
>>> one. We were puzzled by the bills and then got £150 credit as they
>>> said there'd been a mistaken one! And Octopus have the best customer
>>> service record of any power co.
>>>
>>> And today at login I saw this, which I think is new. As above. They
>>> really do want people to get them but do you pay less with one?
>>>
>>> I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
>>> your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..
>>>
>>
>> With a smart meter you see what you’re using. Stop fart arsing about and
>> get one.
>>
>> Mrs McT
>
> As I said initially, we probably can't get one. And my distrust in
> the accounting practices of energy companies goes back many years...

I think you're wise. Octopus are currently a good company, but that
could change. I do not discount the possibility that our power could be
cut off remotely via the smart meter. Especially when you see the OTT
reaction to the very slight row back from Sunak on Net Zero.

It's very funny that the more we install "cheap" renewables the more
expensive our power becomes. :/

On 21/09/2023 13:24, BrritSki wrote:
> On 16/09/2023 09:22, Vicky wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 07:41:01 -0000 (UTC), Chris
>> <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/
>>>>
>>>> I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
>>>> my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
>>>> have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the
>>>> bill, in fact never got it right, and I no longer trusted smart
>>>> meters, and still couldn't have one anyway.
>>>>
>>>>   Now we're with Octopus they nag me with every log in to get one. I
>>>> don't know if I can now, as same gas meter cover, but I don't want
>>>> one. We were puzzled by the bills and then got £150 credit as they
>>>> said there'd been a mistaken one! And Octopus have the best customer
>>>> service record of any power co.
>>>>
>>>> And today at login I saw this, which I think is new. As above. They
>>>> really do want people to get them but do you pay less with one?
>>>>
>>>> I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
>>>> your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..
>>>>
>>>
>>> With a smart meter you see what you’re using. Stop fart arsing about and
>>> get one.
>>>
>>> Mrs McT
>>
>> As I said initially, we probably can't get one.  And my distrust in
>> the accounting practices of energy companies goes back many years...
>
>
> I think you're wise. Octopus are currently a good company, but that
> could change. I do not discount the possibility that our power could be
> cut off remotely via the smart meter. Especially when you see the OTT
> reaction to the very slight row back from Sunak on Net Zero.
>
>
> It's very funny that the more we install "cheap" renewables the more
> expensive our power becomes.  :/

Cheap for the owners of the power source, perhaps. But since *we* are
apparently paying globally set prices for electricity and gas, it makes
no difference to the ordinary person. I scream at the rayjo every time
some pompous eejit says 'we need to exploit all our own gas and coal, it
will be so much cheaper'. It isn't now, why should it be in future
years? I think Tim Harford dealt with this a few weeks ago.

--
Kate B