On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 23:47:48 UTC+1, Turby wrote:
> On 9/11/2023 12:09 AM, Tim wrote:
> > On 11/09/2023 02:33, Mark Olson wrote:
> >> Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On 9/10/2023 9:17 AM, Stephen Packer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] Middlesex Poly
> >>>
> >>> There's actually a school called "Middlesex Poly" and parents happily
> >>> send their children off to it? I cannot imagine a school with that name
> >>> existing in Texas, Florida, or any of those right-wing hard core
> >>> sexually depraved states.
> >>
> >> <just wait til he hears about Penistone & Scunthorpe>
> >>
> > There's also Twatt (Orkney) and Dildo (Newfoundland)
> It's one thing to name places about male or female organs or acts. But
> ambiguous sex? We now have lawsuits for and against schools notifying
> parents when their children want to change sex. When you have an entire
> school aimed at "middle sex," not one or the other, and teaching poly
> acts? If it was over here, parents would be marching with guns out.

Good lord, you guys are just so uptight.

On 11/09/2023 18:56, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 11:43:49 UTC+1, ogden wrote:
>
>> Quite. I can barely imagine what it's like coming out of uni with fifty grand of debt. It galls me that Labour were the ones to introduce tuition fees in the first place, though they were nowhere near what they are now. Should have been obvious at the time that it was going to be the thin end of a very thick wedge.
>
> Also... quite damaging to the economy.
>
> The government stops investing in education and instead turns it into private business.

The original loans were to be interest free - then things started to go
downhill...

> Students take loans which are owned by private companies yet the payments are collected via the taxation system. Once you start earning a very basic salary you're slapped with another 9% tax on anything over the modest salary threshold (varies depending on when loans taken but between 21k and 27k). There will be interest charged on the loan and the chances are for many/most people the interest will roll up and make the debt grow.

This is what was not expected, nor the possibility even built into the
system people signed up for. Breach of contract might be an interesting
angle to pursue? The fact no one seems to have, suggests there was some
small print somewhere that nobody bothered to read.

> Eventually the debt's written off (depends on scheme but after 30/40 years of payments).

Even this time period increased when it was realised the loan companies
were not getting "an effective return on their investment"(sic).

So for many people on moderate incomes they'll be paying an effective
graduate tax of 9% on everything over 25k ish or so for the vast
majority of their working life.
>
> That 9% would have previously been spent on houses/furnishings/cars etc. etc. etc.; you know making the economy turn over. By putting it as an effective tax it's just taking money out of circulation

It has also taken some graduates out of circulation!
Some merely, on (dubious) principle, because they choose not to work
until the debt is cancelled. Others, more seriously, because they have
not been able to cope with increasing debt and thence life itself...

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 11/09/2023 23:47, Turby wrote:
> On 9/11/2023 12:09 AM, Tim wrote:
>> On 11/09/2023 02:33, Mark Olson wrote:
>>> Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/10/2023 9:17 AM, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Middlesex Poly
>>>>
>>>> There's actually a school called "Middlesex Poly" and parents happily
>>>> send their children off to it? I cannot imagine a school with that name
>>>> existing in Texas, Florida, or any of those right-wing hard core
>>>> sexually depraved states.
>>>
>>> <just wait til he hears about Penistone & Scunthorpe>
>>>
>> There's also Twatt (Orkney) and Dildo (Newfoundland)
>
> It's one thing to name places about male or female organs or acts. But
> ambiguous sex? We now have lawsuits for and against schools notifying
> parents when their children want to change sex. When you have an entire
> school aimed at "middle sex," not one or the other, and teaching poly
> acts? If it was over here, parents would be marching with guns out.

Yes, I did twig to the fact that is was specifically the idea of a
'middle sex' that was the issue rather than just the 's' word.

I'm sure 'its just a phase (s)he's going through' :-)

I expect people will be ranting about something else in a couple of years.

Oh, and by the way, there's a Minge Lane in Upton upon Severn...

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 12/09/2023 10:45, chrisnd @ukrm wrote:
> On 11/09/2023 23:47, Turby wrote:
>> On 9/11/2023 12:09 AM, Tim wrote:
>>> On 11/09/2023 02:33, Mark Olson wrote:
>>>> Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2023 9:17 AM, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Middlesex Poly
>>>>>
>>>>> There's actually a school called "Middlesex Poly" and parents happily
>>>>> send their children off to it? I cannot imagine a school with that
>>>>> name
>>>>> existing in Texas, Florida, or any of those right-wing hard core
>>>>> sexually depraved states.
>>>>
>>>> <just wait til he hears about Penistone & Scunthorpe>
>>>>
>>> There's also Twatt (Orkney) and Dildo (Newfoundland)
>>
>> It's one thing to name places about male or female organs or acts. But
>> ambiguous sex? We now have lawsuits for and against schools notifying
>> parents when their children want to change sex. When you have an
>> entire school aimed at "middle sex," not one or the other, and
>> teaching poly acts? If it was over here, parents would be marching
>> with guns out.
>
> Yes, I did twig to the fact that is was specifically the idea of a
> 'middle sex' that was the issue rather than just the 's' word.
>
> I'm sure 'its just a phase (s)he's going through' :-)
>
> I expect people will be ranting about something else in a couple of years.
>
> Oh, and by the way, there's a Minge Lane in Upton upon Severn...

And a Threadneedle Street in that London: there *was* a Tebcrphag Fgerrg
there too.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

siwilson wrote:
> Also the former names of several streets in the uk, eg Magpie Lane in
> Oxford.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ed8b934d-d53e-42b3-9cd0-2f1c6eab56c8n@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 11:43:49 UTC+1, ogden wrote:
>
>> Quite. I can barely imagine what it's like coming out of uni with
>> fifty g
> rand of debt. It galls me that Labour were the ones to introduce
> tuition fees in the first place, though they were nowhere near what
> they are now. Should have been obvious at the time that it was going
> to be the thin end of a very thick wedge.
>
> Also... quite damaging to the economy.
>
> The government stops investing in education and instead turns it into
> private business.
>
> Students take loans which are owned by private companies yet the
> payments are collected via the taxation system. Once you start
> earning a very basic salary you're slapped with another 9% tax on
> anything over the modest salary threshold (varies depending on when
> loans taken but between 21k and 27k). There will be interest charged
> on the loan and the chances are for many/most people the interest will
> roll up and make the debt grow. Eventually the debt's written off
> (depends on scheme but after 30/40 years of payments). So for many
> people on moderate incomes they'll be paying an effective graduate tax
> of 9% on everything over 25k ish or so for the vast majority of their
> working life.
>
> That 9% would have previously been spent on houses/furnishings/cars
> etc. etc. etc.; you know making the economy turn over. By putting it
> as an effective tax it's just taking money out of circulation (which I
> guess backs up gilts or similar government investment vehicles).
> Seems damaging to the economy to me; but I'm not an economist (I'd
> love to study PPE or Economics but can't afford the course fees these
> days... wonder if I'm eligible for a student loan (answer; no since I
> have a first degree)

it has to be a significant factor in the brain drain to Australia etc.
Especially medics, when you consider the size of their debt due to the
length of their training compared to someone living with parents and
attending a local university for 6 hours a week to get a degree in
Mickey Mouse Studies.

I guess the latter will make up the politicians and call centre droids
of the future, when India starts outsourcing work to third rate
economies.

On 9/11/2023 4:02 PM, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 23:47:48 UTC+1, Turby wrote:
>> On 9/11/2023 12:09 AM, Tim wrote:
>>> On 11/09/2023 02:33, Mark Olson wrote:
>>>> Turby <xs...@xmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/10/2023 9:17 AM, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Middlesex Poly
>>>>>
>>>>> There's actually a school called "Middlesex Poly" and parents happily
>>>>> send their children off to it? I cannot imagine a school with that name
>>>>> existing in Texas, Florida, or any of those right-wing hard core
>>>>> sexually depraved states.
>>>>
>>>> <just wait til he hears about Penistone & Scunthorpe>
>>>>
>>> There's also Twatt (Orkney) and Dildo (Newfoundland)
>> It's one thing to name places about male or female organs or acts. But
>> ambiguous sex? We now have lawsuits for and against schools notifying
>> parents when their children want to change sex. When you have an entire
>> school aimed at "middle sex," not one or the other, and teaching poly
>> acts? If it was over here, parents would be marching with guns out.
>
> Good lord, you guys are just so uptight.

Well, the Republicunts certainly are. I was just working on my sense of
humor.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

Stephen Packer wrote:
> ogden wrote:
> > Quite. I can barely imagine what it's like coming out of uni with fifty grand of debt. It galls me that Labour were the ones to introduce tuition fees in the first place, though they were nowhere near what they are now. Should have been obvious at the time that it was going to be the thin end of a very thick wedge.
>
> Also... quite damaging to the economy.
>
> Students take loans which are owned by private companies yet the payments are collected via the taxation system. Once you start earning a very basic salary you're slapped with another 9% tax on anything over the modest salary threshold (varies depending on when loans taken but between 21k and 27k)..

> That 9% would have previously been spent on houses/furnishings/cars etc. etc. etc.; you know making the economy turn over. By putting it as an effective tax it's just taking money out of circulation

Er, those fees would previously have been paid out of general taxation, so would have been taken out of circulation anyway, surely? The only difference would appear to be exactly whose pockets the money is being taken from.

On 12/09/2023 18:03, ogden wrote:
> Stephen Packer wrote:
>> ogden wrote:
>>> Quite. I can barely imagine what it's like coming out of uni with fifty grand of debt. It galls me that Labour were the ones to introduce tuition fees in the first place, though they were nowhere near what they are now. Should have been obvious at the time that it was going to be the thin end of a very thick wedge.
>>
>> Also... quite damaging to the economy.
>>
>> Students take loans which are owned by private companies yet the payments are collected via the taxation system. Once you start earning a very basic salary you're slapped with another 9% tax on anything over the modest salary threshold (varies depending on when loans taken but between 21k and 27k).
>
>> That 9% would have previously been spent on houses/furnishings/cars etc. etc. etc.; you know making the economy turn over. By putting it as an effective tax it's just taking money out of circulation
>
> Er, those fees would previously have been paid out of general taxation, so would have been taken out of circulation anyway, surely? The only difference would appear to be exactly whose pockets the money is being taken from.
>
"You've got to pick a pocket or two..."

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 11/09/2023 09:42, siwilson wrote:

>
>Also the former names of several streets in the uk, eg Magpie Lane in
>Oxford.

Isn't that just up the road from Crotch Crescent?

--
Geoff
NTV 650

On Tuesday, 12 September 2023 at 18:03:11 UTC+1, ogden wrote:
> Stephen Packer wrote:
> > ogden wrote:
> > > Quite. I can barely imagine what it's like coming out of uni with fifty grand of debt. It galls me that Labour were the ones to introduce tuition fees in the first place, though they were nowhere near what they are now. Should have been obvious at the time that it was going to be the thin end of a very thick wedge.
> >
> > Also... quite damaging to the economy.
> >
> > Students take loans which are owned by private companies yet the payments are collected via the taxation system. Once you start earning a very basic salary you're slapped with another 9% tax on anything over the modest salary threshold (varies depending on when loans taken but between 21k and 27k).
> > That 9% would have previously been spent on houses/furnishings/cars etc.. etc. etc.; you know making the economy turn over. By putting it as an effective tax it's just taking money out of circulation
> Er, those fees would previously have been paid out of general taxation, so would have been taken out of circulation anyway, surely? The only difference would appear to be exactly whose pockets the money is being taken from.

At the start of your career the chances are you spend every penny you earn and more. If you're lucky and your career progresses then you start to save. The top half of households by income pay about 80% of tax (admittedly figures from 2019 but I doubt the income curve has flattened).

Money that's saved doesn't have the same gearing effect as money that's spent. So while, yes, someone has to pay for education I still suspect it's more damaging for the economy to take the costs directly from those with smaller incomes (at least initially in the 'set up' phase of their lives) than it is to have the costs of education spread across the whole of the tax base.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 14:48:23 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:

>On 07/09/2023 21:11, ogden wrote:
>>
>> buzzed
>> crocked
>> dead drunk
>> inebriated
>> intoxicated
>> loaded
>> plastered
>> sloshed
>> smashed
>> tipsy
>> under-the-table"

>... or "a good first day in Chimay"

<applause>
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 09:17:45 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

>I proceeded on arrival to drink the vodka and becoming abusive (I don't remember this).

>fast forward another five or ten years and I spent an evening in a hotel bar
>in Beijing drinking Vodka/Redbull and Vodka/Tonic. Apparently towards the end of
>the night I 'had opinions that were strongly held but unclear'.

These stories sound like almost all the times I've been drinking with
you :-)
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 26/09/2023 10:47, Champ wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 14:48:23 +0100, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>> On 07/09/2023 21:11, ogden wrote:
>>>
>>> buzzed
>>> crocked
>>> dead drunk
>>> inebriated
>>> intoxicated
>>> loaded
>>> plastered
>>> sloshed
>>> smashed
>>> tipsy
>>> under-the-table"
>
>> ... or "a good first day in Chimay"
>
> <applause>
>
Horizontally.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On Tuesday, 26 September 2023 at 10:50:26 UTC+1, Champ wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 09:17:45 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >I proceeded on arrival to drink the vodka and becoming abusive (I don't remember this).
>
> >fast forward another five or ten years and I spent an evening in a hotel bar
> >in Beijing drinking Vodka/Redbull and Vodka/Tonic. Apparently towards the end of
> >the night I 'had opinions that were strongly held but unclear'.
>
> These stories sound like almost all the times I've been drinking with
> you :-)

Sadly those days are a distant memory. Glad they happened but
unlikely to ever be repeated.