RustyHinge wrote:

> On 17/10/2023 16:51, GeoffC wrote:
> > wessie wrote:
> >
> >>"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:ugm1lq$2vrlk$1@dont-email.me:
> > >
> > > > wessie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > you want less air in the tank to expand then contract sucking
> > > > > in
> >>more >> moist air. Petrol containing ethanol will absorb the
> moisture >>every >> time there is a new batch of air sucked in.
> Eventually the >>ethanol >> solution separates and in long term
> storage, this will >>rust steel >> tanks as well as causing problems
> starting the bike. >>Fill the tank >> and you will minimise this
> effect.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What you describe is how a half full tank of diesel would be ie.
> > > > half liquid diesel and half air. But would a petrol tank not be
> > > > half liquid petrol and half petrol vapour thereby excluding any
> > > > moisture of its own accord. Or am I missing something?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > that tank is not sealed, it has a breather so there is likely some
> > > gas exchange as ambient temperature rises and falls. Bear in mind
> > > the OP lives in the tropice where there is quite a differential
> > > between day and night ambient temperature.
> >
> > Would that not happen anyway irrespective of whether the bike is
> > standing or being used?
>
> Yes, but if it's being used, so is the absorbed moisture. It's the
> long-term which is the fly in the ointment.

Any water just sinks to the bottom of the tank hopefully out of reach
of the pick up pipe. I've had water in the petrol once and if it gets
through to the carbs then one drop is enough to stop the engine. The
surface tension of water would just block jets IWHT.

--

Geoff
NTV650

GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:

> Any water just sinks to the bottom of the tank hopefully out of reach
> of the pick up pipe. I've had water in the petrol once and if it gets
> through to the carbs then one drop is enough to stop the engine. The
> surface tension of water would just block jets IWHT.

Not when your petrol is E10, if the amount of water is small enough,
it will be mixed homogeneously (?) with the ethanol AND the petrol.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

Mark Olson wrote:

> GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:
>
> > Any water just sinks to the bottom of the tank hopefully out of
> > reach of the pick up pipe. I've had water in the petrol once and if
> > it gets through to the carbs then one drop is enough to stop the
> > engine. The surface tension of water would just block jets IWHT.
>
> Not when your petrol is E10, if the amount of water is small enough,
> it will be mixed homogeneously (?) with the ethanol AND the petrol.

How small is small?
As a long time owner of SOB's this is interesting. The last POS
actually rusted through the tank at the pointy side bits.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AptckoyvaobmktkB0XK5vwhYUVMMYw?e=iaa2H0

A quick estimate (and the amount of epoxy it took to fill them)
indicates there was about 3cm3 of water in each side. Bike was from
1993, so it was running on "normal" petrol for at least 20 years.
According to:

https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php#:~:text=The%20lower%20the%20temperature%2C%20the,be%20reduced%20to%20approximately%200.3%25.

E10 can absorb about 0.3 - 0.7% water depending on temperature so that
6cc would have been absorbed in no time. Which makes E10 a good thing
right?
Bearing in mind my previous rusty tank experience, on the current POS
(1997) I have taken the tank off a couple of times ( after running down
to reserve and a bit) drained it completely and run the fuel through a
coffee filter but I haven't found anything yet. Did have some problems
with a needle valve that looked as if it had been corroded by water
though. It also has a clear line filter so I keep and eye on that too.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 18:59:21 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:

>Dunno why I bother with the smiie sometimes.:-(

Heh. I had been thinking of commenting until I spotted it. If it were
anyone else...

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 14:39:38 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 21:51:08 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> If possible I leave on main stand to reduce the weight on the tyres (I
>>>> may be wrong but it should be less likely to end up with a flat area).
>
>>> Would over-inflating the tyres a bit help with this?
>
>>Hmm, but would that not cause more floor contact? :-)
>
>You're so special, Bruce. I can see why Eddie wrote "Eh?" :-)

H,l,s+coAT

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
wrote:

>Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more volatile than
>water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour will get into a tank
>that is full of petrol vapour.

But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny bit
of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside air
being allowed into the tank.

>Otherwise car petrol tanks would be sloshing with water after 10 years.

This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.

It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent and
significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also consequences.

And anyone who's had to de-rust the inside of ao old unused bike
petrol tank will be aware of the effects over time.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 17/10/2023 18:59, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 17/10/2023 14:39, Champ wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 21:51:08 +0100, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>> If possible I leave on main stand to reduce the weight on the tyres (I
>>>>> may be wrong but it should be less likely to end up with a flat area).
>>>> Would over-inflating the tyres a bit help with this?
>>
>>> Hmm, but would that not cause more floor contact? :-)
>>
>> You're so special, Bruce.  I can see why Eddie wrote "Eh?"  :-)
>
> Dunno why  I bother with the smiie sometimes.:-(

+1
:-)

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:

> E10 can absorb about 0.3 - 0.7% water depending on temperature so that
> 6cc would have been absorbed in no time. Which makes E10 a good thing
> right?

I think so, in addition to preventing rust from water accumulation,
it also means in very cold climates there is less need to add 'Heet'
AKA 'dry gas' to prevent fuel line freeze ups. Back in the olden
days I never experienced that in any of my cars, and wondered what
all the fuss was about, but maybe I was just lucky,

However, E10 has a reputation[1] for going off during storage that
pure petrol does not. For that reason, I only put pure gasoline[2]
into my bikes whenever possible, especially toward the end of the
riding season since my bikes get stored for months at a time. If I
lived where I could ride year round I probably would not care whether
my fuel had ethanol in it or not.

[1] All mostly anecodotal for me, but I believe it is not entirely
undeserved.
[2] Which is not always widely available across the USA, and if it is,
usually at a significant increase in price.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 18/10/2023 13:27, Mark Olson wrote:
> GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:
>
>> E10 can absorb about 0.3 - 0.7% water depending on temperature so that
>> 6cc would have been absorbed in no time. Which makes E10 a good thing
>> right?
>
<snip>
>
> However, E10 has a reputation[1] for going off during storage that
> pure petrol does not. For that reason, I only put pure gasoline[2]

I'm not sure you can use the word "pure" in relation to petrol.
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/10/2023 13:27, Mark Olson wrote:
>> GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> E10 can absorb about 0.3 - 0.7% water depending on temperature so that
>>> 6cc would have been absorbed in no time. Which makes E10 a good thing
>>> right?
>>
> <snip>
>>
>> However, E10 has a reputation[1] for going off during storage that
>> pure petrol does not. For that reason, I only put pure gasoline[2]
>
> I'm not sure you can use the word "pure" in relation to petrol.

Pedantically, you're correct, but in this discussion I believe 'pure'
would be widely understood to mean a non-oxygenated / ethanol-free
blend. Petrol / gasoline has always been a mixture of light fractions
of petroleum, even from the earliest days. Nowadays it also includes
specialized detergent additives to prevent fuel injectors clogging
up and no doubt other things. Of course unintended contaminants such
as water continue to be a problem, but not as common as some people
seem to think- I've heard stupid people say they won't buy fuel at
a particular station because "it's watered down". These are probably
the same people who think they are giving their low spec car a treat
by buying high octane fuel.

One thing I noticed when on a work assignment in the middle east
was how different their petrol smelled compared to what comes out
of the pumps here. It brought back strong memories from childhood,
it had a distinctly different smell. Same price at every station...

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

Ace wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more volatile
> > than water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour will get into
> > a tank that is full of petrol vapour.
>
> But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny bit
> of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
> contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside air
> being allowed into the tank.
>
> > Otherwise car petrol tanks would be sloshing with water after 10
> > years.
>
> This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
> standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
> a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
> water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.

Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
captain friend).
And modern jetliner too apparently.

>
> It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent and
> significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also consequences.
>
> And anyone who's had to de-rust the inside of ao old unused bike
> petrol tank will be aware of the effects over time.

Perhaps that's it? A tank left for a long time will cause all the
volatile components to evaporate and disappear so no vapour means that
moisture can get in. A tank on a bike that is use regularly will still
be full of vapour warding off the moisture problem

--

Geoff
NTV650

Ace wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more volatile
> > than water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour will get into
> > a tank that is full of petrol vapour.
>
> But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny bit
> of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
> contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside air
> being allowed into the tank.
>
> > Otherwise car petrol tanks would be sloshing with water after 10
> > years.
>
> This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
> standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
> a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
> water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.

Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
captain friend).
And modern jetliner too apparently.

>
> It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent and
> significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also consequences.
>
> And anyone who's had to de-rust the inside of ao old unused bike
> petrol tank will be aware of the effects over time.

Perhaps that's it? A tank left for a long time will cause all the
volatile components to evaporate and disappear so no vapour means that
moisture can get in. A tank on a bike that is use regularly will still
be full of vapour warding off the moisture problem

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 19/10/2023 13:18, Mark Olson wrote:
> YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/10/2023 13:27, Mark Olson wrote:
>>> GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> E10 can absorb about 0.3 - 0.7% water depending on temperature so that
>>>> 6cc would have been absorbed in no time. Which makes E10 a good thing
>>>> right?
>>>
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> However, E10 has a reputation[1] for going off during storage that
>>> pure petrol does not. For that reason, I only put pure gasoline[2]
>>
>> I'm not sure you can use the word "pure" in relation to petrol.
>
> Pedantically, you're correct, but in this discussion I believe 'pure'
<bows>

> would be widely understood to mean a non-oxygenated / ethanol-free
Untainted by?

<snip>
>
> One thing I noticed when on a work assignment in the middle east
> was how different their petrol smelled compared to what comes out

aha
Not just me.
I mentioned this years ago while on our (many) Americas rides, I could
nearly tell which country I was in by the smell of the petrol :-)

> of the pumps here. It brought back strong memories from childhood,
> it had a distinctly different smell. Same price at every station...
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 19/10/2023 19:52, GeoffC wrote:
> Ace wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more volatile
>>> than water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour will get into
>>> a tank that is full of petrol vapour.
>>
>> But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny bit
>> of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
>> contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside air
>> being allowed into the tank.
>>

>> This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
>> standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
>> a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
>> water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.
>
> Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
> captain friend).
> And modern jetliner too apparently.
>
>>
>> It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent and
>> significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also consequences.
>>

> Perhaps that's it? A tank left for a long time will cause all the
> volatile components to evaporate and disappear so no vapour means that
> moisture can get in. A tank on a bike that is use regularly will still
> be full of vapour warding off the moisture problem

What no one has yet mentioned is the expansion of the actual fuel with
temperature?
Having once had an 'overflow' on a hot bike after topping up I have
never fully filled one since - unless I was going to ride further.

I haven't checked (I ought to!) but I have little doubt that the
coefficient of thermal expansion is much less for the fuel than the
air/vapour above it. However either way there will be some air there
ready to absorb any available moisture I am sure.

Overall though I am now a convert to the idea that it is better to leave
a tank fuller rather than emptier over longish periods in an effort to
reduce 'damp' :-)

Ta for that

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:18:56 PM UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:

> One thing I noticed when on a work assignment in the middle east
> was how different their petrol smelled compared to what comes out
> of the pumps here. It brought back strong memories from childhood,
> it had a distinctly different smell. Same price at every station...

I still maintain that British petrol and US "gas" smell very different. But I can't describe how.

Ben Blaney <benblaney@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:18:56 PM UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:
>
>> One thing I noticed when on a work assignment in the middle east
>> was how different their petrol smelled compared to what comes out
>> of the pumps here. It brought back strong memories from childhood,
>> it had a distinctly different smell. Same price at every station...
>
> I still maintain that British petrol and US "gas" smell very different. But I can't describe how.

Me neither, the Saudi petrol smelled like "real gas" to me, where
"real gas" is defined as how I remembered it used to smell when I
was a kid in the 60s. A nice unexpected memory trigger.

Not being a chemical engineer I can't say for certain, but I'm happy
to believe it's partly down to the composition of the crude oil,
which in turn is dependent on what field(s) it was extracted from.
I have to think light North Sea crude is _very_ different from what
comes out of the tar sands of Alberta.

Other reasons for the difference in smell arise from the refining
process. As I understand it, producing petrol from crude is primarily
a process of distillation, but secondary processes such as cracking
and catalytic conversions are also involved.

https://www.valero.com/refining/oil-refining/refining-science-process

Of course things such as what additives are present also affect how
it smells, perhaps even outweighing the other factors.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

Ben Blaney <benblaney@gmail.com> wrote in
news:6f859189-9529-431d-81d5-9825f0e06dcbn@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:18:56 PM UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:
>
>> One thing I noticed when on a work assignment in the middle east
>> was how different their petrol smelled compared to what comes out
>> of the pumps here. It brought back strong memories from childhood,
>> it had a distinctly different smell. Same price at every station...
>
> I still maintain that British petrol and US "gas" smell very
> different. But I can't describe how.

I noticed the petrol in France was different on my first visit in 1995. A
more fruity aroma like you get with ethane from ripe fruit.

Since the introduction of E5 then E10, I no longer notice a difference.

I believe the difference might be down to the amount of benzene in the
blend. Benzene has a very distinctive, sweet aroma.

Benzene is quite toxic so the percentage allowed in the blend has reduced
over time in Europe & US. I bet the Middle East does not have the same
controls as Europe & USA.

On 10/20/2023 10:41 AM, wessie wrote:
> Ben Blaney <benblaney@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:6f859189-9529-431d-81d5-9825f0e06dcbn@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:18:56 PM UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:
>>
>>> One thing I noticed when on a work assignment in the middle east
>>> was how different their petrol smelled
>>
>> I still maintain that British petrol and US "gas" smell very
>> different. But I can't describe how.
>
> I noticed the petrol in France was different on my first visit in 1995. A
> more fruity aroma like you get with ethane from ripe fruit.

Beer, food, even women, I would have guessed y'all to be connoisseurs of
their aroma. But petrol? Nah.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

Ace wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more volatile
> > than water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour will get into
> > a tank that is full of petrol vapour.
>
> But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny bit
> of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
> contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside air
> being allowed into the tank.
>
> > Otherwise car petrol tanks would be sloshing with water after 10
> > years.
>
> This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
> standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
> a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
> water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.

Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
captain friend).
And modern jetliner too apparently.

>
> It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent and
> significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also consequences.
>
> And anyone who's had to de-rust the inside of ao old unused bike
> petrol tank will be aware of the effects over time.

Perhaps that's it? A tank left for a long time will cause all the
volatile components to evaporate and disappear so no vapour means that
moisture can get in. A tank on a bike that is use regularly will still
be full of vapour warding off the moisture problem

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 21/10/2023 15:34, GeoffC wrote:
> Ace wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more volatile
>>> than water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour will get into
>>> a tank that is full of petrol vapour.
>>
>> But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny bit
>> of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
>> contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside air
>> being allowed into the tank.
>>
>>> Otherwise car petrol tanks would be sloshing with water after 10
>>> years.
>>
>> This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
>> standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
>> a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
>> water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.
>
> Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
> captain friend).
> And modern jetliner too apparently.
>
>>
>> It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent and
>> significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also consequences.
>>
>> And anyone who's had to de-rust the inside of ao old unused bike
>> petrol tank will be aware of the effects over time.
>
> Perhaps that's it? A tank left for a long time will cause all the
> volatile components to evaporate and disappear so no vapour means that
> moisture can get in. A tank on a bike that is use regularly will still
> be full of vapour warding off the moisture problem

Petrol itself is volatile

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

RustyHinge wrote:

> On 21/10/2023 15:34, GeoffC wrote:
> > Ace wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 16:01:53 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yebbut air can only hold so much and petrol is much more
> > > > volatile than water. I remain sceptical that any water vapour
> > > > will get into a tank that is full of petrol vapour.
> > >
> > > But it's not full of petrol vapour, it's full of air with a tiny
> > > bit of petrol vapour in it. And it's not sealed, so expansion and
> > > contraction will cause it to breathe over time, with more outside
> > > air being allowed into the tank.
> > >
> > > > Otherwise car petrol tanks would be sloshing with water after 10
> > > > years.
> > >
> > > This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
> > > standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel
> > > out of a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to
> > > remove the water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.
> >
> > Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
> > captain friend).
> > And modern jetliner too apparently.
> >
> > >
> > > It's much more of an issue for planes than cars due to frequent
> > > and significant changes in temperatyre and pressure, also
> > > consequences.
> > >
> > > And anyone who's had to de-rust the inside of ao old unused bike
> > > petrol tank will be aware of the effects over time.
> >
> > Perhaps that's it? A tank left for a long time will cause all the
> > volatile components to evaporate and disappear so no vapour means
> > that moisture can get in. A tank on a bike that is use regularly
> > will still be full of vapour warding off the moisture problem
>
> Petrol itself is volatile

I assume it is a mixture of many different components some very
volatile some less so, also I think it degenerates over time into
something which is not volatile ie. the varnish gunk which bungs up yer
carbs after a few years standing.

--

Geoff
NTV650

"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:uh0qt0$1qsgo$1@dont-email.me:

> I assume it is a mixture of many different components some very
> volatile some less so, also I think it degenerates over time into
> something which is not volatile ie. the varnish gunk which bungs up yer
> carbs after a few years standing.
>
>

pretty much a residue of solute formed from additives, waxes and gums
dissolved in an organic solution, when the solvent evaporates

just like limescale forming when water evaporates

On 21/10/2023 15:34, GeoffC wrote:
>> This is a real problem for petrol-engined aircraft, such that a
>> standard part of the pre0flight checks us to let a little fuel out of
>> a special cock at the very lowest point of the tank to remove the
>> water that's condensed out/check that there isn't any.
> Yes, marine diesel tanks have this too (according to a Rhine barge
> captain friend).
> And modern jetliner too apparently.
>
I also have water drains on the fuel filters on my old tractors which I
drain before my occasional use,