I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
it should be "questionnaire." That didn't seem right to me so I tried
typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct. So
then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
thought, and as seemed sensible. Then I tried another word and found
that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.

Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
"aire" on the end. Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
not others?
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
> it should be "questionnaire." That didn't seem right to me so I tried
> typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct. So
> then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
> thought, and as seemed sensible. Then I tried another word and found
> that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>
> Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
> "aire" on the end. Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
> not others?

To confuse the enemy of course ;-)

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 14-Dec-23 17:51, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
> it should be "questionnaire."  That didn't seem right to me so I tried
> typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct.  So
> then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
> thought, and as seemed sensible.  Then I tried another word and found
> that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>
> Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
> "aire" on the end.  Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
> not others?

Is there a pondial difference? American English spellings do seem to be
taking over, wherever you look.

--
Sam Plusnet

In message <ku0tlaF80r0U3@mid.individual.net> at Thu, 14 Dec 2023
17:51:38, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
>it should be "questionnaire." That didn't seem right to me so I tried
>typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct. So
>then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
>thought, and as seemed sensible. Then I tried another word and found
>that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>
>Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
>"aire" on the end. Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
>not others?

You expect consistency? In English? (Have you never come across "The
Chaos"?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for
everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off. - Albert
Pierrepoint, in his 1974 autobiography.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 20:38:35 +0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 14-Dec-23 17:51, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
>> it should be "questionnaire."  That didn't seem right to me so I tried
>> typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct.  So
>> then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
>> thought, and as seemed sensible.  Then I tried another word and found
>> that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>>
>> Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
>> "aire" on the end.  Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
>> not others?
>
> Is there a pondial difference? American English spellings do seem to be
> taking over, wherever you look.

The pond being here the English Channel?
French English
Legionnaire Legionnaire
Questionnaire Questionnaire

BUT
Millionnaire Millionaire
Commissionnaire Commissionaire
Concessionnaire Concession(n)aire

I hazard a bare initial hypothesis that those with the double n appeared
in English as loan words. A trawl through some dictionary etymologies
might help. Or there's quite likely something very relevant in one of David
Crystal's books.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 21:50:58 +0000, Iain Archer wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 20:38:35 +0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 14-Dec-23 17:51, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>> I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
>>> it should be "questionnaire."  That didn't seem right to me so I tried
>>> typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct.  So
>>> then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
>>> thought, and as seemed sensible.  Then I tried another word and found
>>> that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>>>
>>> Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
>>> "aire" on the end.  Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
>>> not others?
>>
>> Is there a pondial difference? American English spellings do seem to
>> be taking over, wherever you look.
>
> The pond being here the English Channel?
> French English
> Legionnaire Legionnaire
> Questionnaire Questionnaire
>
> BUT
> Millionnaire Millionaire
> Commissionnaire Commissionaire
> Concessionnaire Concession(n)aire
>
Apologies for the columniation mess; not the first time either. I've tried
tidying it, but really need to do some quiet analysis, to see what's happening.
Perhaps I should resort to uk.test.

> I hazard a bare initial hypothesis that those with the double n appeared
> in English as loan words. A trawl through some dictionary etymologies
> might help. Or there's quite likely something very relevant in one of
> David Crystal's books.

Anyway, I see HW Fowler provides some support, in his
Dictionary of Modern English Usage (first published 1926).
In his embedded article on French Words, which begins:

"Display of superior knowledge is as great a vulgarity as display of
superior wealth -- greater, indeed, inasmuch as knowledge should tend
more definitely than wealth towards discretion & good manners."

He says "commission(n)aire is best anglicized both in spelling ...
and in pronunciation...", and recommends the same for
"concession(n)aire". Of "question(n)aire" he says it is "too recent an
importation to be in the OED (1904). It should be treated like
commissionaire,lose an n, and be called kwest[...] rather than kest[...]."

I don't even see legion(n)aire in the SOED (1933) or Chambers 20th
Century Dictionary supplement (1934), but it is said to be French in
Chambers (1988).

So, that seems to leave "questionnaire" as a possible anomaly, in its
failure to acquire an anglicized spelling, and one may wonder why we,
the British people, apparently decided not to. Because it's not descriptive
of a person or an action perhaps? Because it had a more specialised
set of users? Because it seems better that way? ...

Apologies again if the lineage gets mangled. My keyboard Insert function
seems to be acting a bit strangely, which I don't want to lose any sleep over.
I'll have a look in the morning. Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
toshpiece to listen to.

Iain

On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
> toshpiece to listen to.

Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.

I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
tough and fearless.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
<NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
>> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
>> toshpiece to listen to.
>
>Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.
>
>I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
>and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
>There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
>add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
>tough and fearless.

I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
Podcasts.

Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes:

> I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
> it should be "questionnaire." That didn't seem right to me so I tried
> typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct. So
> then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
> thought, and as seemed sensible. Then I tried another word and found
> that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>
> Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
> "aire" on the end. Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
> not others?

You have a very optimistic idea of how the English language works.

Rosie

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
><NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
>>> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
>>> toshpiece to listen to.
>>
>>Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.
>>
>>I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
>>and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
>>There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
>>add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
>>tough and fearless.
>
>I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
>Podcasts.

It doesn't always work that way for me. Sometimes it's a bit like the
race against time to fall asleep during the Shipping Forecast before
the National Anthem shocks me awake again.

Take last night, for instance. Yes. Please take last night.

I went to sleep listening to an elderly and rather insipid series of
Dead Ringers (they aren't always all that great) but was shocked awake
again in the early hours by the next item in the alphabetical series
in my mp3 player....

.....Dick Barton

Nick

Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
>>>> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
>>>> toshpiece to listen to.
>>>
>>> Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.
>>>
>>> I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
>>> and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
>>> There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
>>> add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
>>> tough and fearless.
>>
>> I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
>> Podcasts.
>
> It doesn't always work that way for me. Sometimes it's a bit like the
> race against time to fall asleep during the Shipping Forecast before
> the National Anthem shocks me awake again.
>
> Take last night, for instance. Yes. Please take last night.
>
> I went to sleep listening to an elderly and rather insipid series of
> Dead Ringers (they aren't always all that great) but was shocked awake
> again in the early hours by the next item in the alphabetical series
> in my mp3 player....
>
> ....Dick Barton
>
> Nick
>

Did the Devil gallop past?

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:50:10 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

>Take last night, for instance. Yes. Please take last night.

Last night was very bad here too.

On 14-Dec-23 21:50, Iain Archer wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 20:38:35 +0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 14-Dec-23 17:51, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>> I just wrote the word "questionaire" in an e-mail and Thunderbird said
>>> it should be "questionnaire."  That didn't seem right to me so I tried
>>> typing it in Word and sure enough, the 2 n's version is correct.  So
>>> then I typed "commissionaire" and confirmed it had only one n, as I
>>> thought, and as seemed sensible.  Then I tried another word and found
>>> that "legionnaire" has 2 n's.
>>>
>>> Shirley the words are created by taking the basic noun and tacking
>>> "aire" on the end.  Why then is an extra n inserted in some words but
>>> not others?
>>
>> Is there a pondial difference? American English spellings do seem to be
>> taking over, wherever you look.
>
> The pond being here the English Channel?
> French English
> Legionnaire Legionnaire
> Questionnaire Questionnaire
>
> BUT
> Millionnaire Millionaire
> Commissionnaire Commissionaire
> Concessionnaire Concession(n)aire
>
> I hazard a bare initial hypothesis that those with the double n appeared
> in English as loan words. A trawl through some dictionary etymologies
> might help. Or there's quite likely something very relevant in one of David
> Crystal's books.

Sorry, I have a bad habit of using terms, common in one group, in
another group where they aren't known.

The "pond" is the Atlantic ocean, so pondial differences highlight the
differences between British and American English[1].

[1] or culture or etc. etc.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> scrawled
in the dust...

>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
><NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
>>> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
>>> toshpiece to listen to.
>>
>>Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.
>>
>>I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
>>and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
>>There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
>>add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
>>tough and fearless.
>
>I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
>Podcasts.

I suppose I can't disagree about the clarity of speech, but I really
dislike Paul Temple as a character. The slow-thinker in a fictional couple
is usually amusing - he isn't. My main objection to the programme is the
scripts, apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 22:08:19 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> scrawled
>in the dust...
>
>>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
>><NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
>>>> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
>>>> toshpiece to listen to.
>>>
>>>Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.
>>>
>>>I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
>>>and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
>>>There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
>>>add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
>>>tough and fearless.
>>
>>I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
>>Podcasts.
>
>I suppose I can't disagree about the clarity of speech, but I really
>dislike Paul Temple as a character. The slow-thinker in a fictional couple
>is usually amusing - he isn't. My main objection to the programme is the
>scripts, apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
>and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...

All written by Francis Durbridge, I think. He wrote some extremely
popular series for television AIR - The World of Tim Frazer being one
I remember. I believe a lot of people enjoyed his TV dramas though I
don't suppose they would stand up to modern scrutiny.

Nick

On 15.12.23 22:08, Penny wrote:
> apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
> and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...

Surely plod in a detective fiction is appropriate?
--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:16:12 +0000, krw <krw@whitnet.uk> wrote:

>On 15.12.23 22:08, Penny wrote:
>> apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
>> and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...
>
>Surely plod in a detective fiction is appropriate?

Second daughter manages Drama and Alibi channels, or had you already
seen my undies? I like lots of programmes on those and she sometimes
gets free audience responses :)
Current favourite is Sister Boniface, which is Father Brown with
forensic nun and nice police folk. Also love Hudson and Rex, Lassie
as police partner, and adore the senior policeman in Brokenwood. Whole
cast are nice and quite a few nice regulars. Is Senora Volpe hers?
only three though.

On Britbox I like Murder in Provence but also just three. We rewatch
Midsommer and Morse and Endeavour.

On 16.12.23 11:31, Vicky wrote:
> Is Senora Volpe hers

I think it was Apple or another streaming service first but it did
eventually turn up on Drama. Bit obvious but I assume it gave Emilia
Fox and Tara Fitzgerald some rather pleasant time in the Italian sun
shine when not working.

TF's stepfather was Norman Rodway - but I do not think he has anything
to do with Rodway and Watson.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> writes:

> I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
> Podcasts.

So it wasn't the Devil's Galop you heard, it was the Coronation Scot
speeding towards Paul Temple.

Rosie

krw <krw@whitnet.uk> writes:

> On 15.12.23 22:08, Penny wrote:
>> apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
>> and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...
>
> Surely plod in a detective fiction is appropriate?

Investigating the Noddy Murders?

Rosie

On 15/12/2023 22:08, Penny wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> scrawled
> in the dust...
>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/12/2023 01:10, Iain Archer wrote:
>>>> Besides, I have an important Paul Temple
>>>> toshpiece to listen to.
>>>
>>> Many thanks for the dictionary stuff, Iain. Very interesting.
>>>
>>> I was ahead of you with PT because I'd recorded it last time it was on
>>> and was prompted to listen again and got ahead of the broadcast.
>>> There's one time when they have Steve fainting? WHY? It didn't seem to
>>> add anything to the plot and Steve just isn't the fainting type, she's
>>> tough and fearless.
>>
>> I like listening to PT too. Clear voices. I listen to go to sleep to.
>> Podcasts.
>
> I suppose I can't disagree about the clarity of speech, but I really
> dislike Paul Temple as a character. The slow-thinker in a fictional couple
> is usually amusing - he isn't. My main objection to the programme is the
> scripts, apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
> and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...

My go-to recently has been the various remarkably listenable Sherlock
Holmes series - the Further Adventure ones by Bert Coules with Clive
Merrison are excellent, but I am entranced by the truly ancient ones
with Carleton Hobbes and Norman Shelley, which preserve not only Doyle's
precise plots, but an entire radio drama culture. And you can hear every
word, of course.

--
Kate B

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:14:53 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 15/12/2023 22:08, Penny wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> scrawled
>> in the dust...
>>
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
>>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>

>
>My go-to recently has been the various remarkably listenable Sherlock
>Holmes series - the Further Adventure ones by Bert Coules with Clive
>Merrison are excellent, but I am entranced by the truly ancient ones
>with Carleton Hobbes and Norman Shelley, which preserve not only Doyle's
>precise plots, but an entire radio drama culture. And you can hear every
>word, of course.

I've caught bits of some of those too on 4E. 4E at night is ok until
a point when 'comedy' begins. I think there's 2 hours of that.

On 16-Dec-23 10:16, krw wrote:
> On 15.12.23 22:08, Penny wrote:
>> apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
>> and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...
>
> Surely plod in a detective fiction is appropriate?

You shouldn't say that. It's not PC.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:35:59 +0000, Rosie Mitchell
<rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:

>krw <krw@whitnet.uk> writes:
>
>> On 15.12.23 22:08, Penny wrote:
>>> apparently written by someone who fails to understand radio drama,
>>> and has no eye in hir mind - plod, plod, plod...
>>
>> Surely plod in a detective fiction is appropriate?
>
>Investigating the Noddy Murders?
>
The character falls into the public domain in 2038 - are you
contemplating a slasher movie series in the Winnie the Pooh style?

Nick

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:03:16 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:14:53 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On 15/12/2023 22:08, Penny wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:42 +0000, Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> scrawled
>>> in the dust...
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 08:39:02 +0000, Jenny M Benson
>>>> <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>
>>
>>My go-to recently has been the various remarkably listenable Sherlock
>>Holmes series - the Further Adventure ones by Bert Coules with Clive
>>Merrison are excellent, but I am entranced by the truly ancient ones
>>with Carleton Hobbes and Norman Shelley, which preserve not only Doyle's
>>precise plots, but an entire radio drama culture. And you can hear every
>>word, of course.
>
>I've caught bits of some of those too on 4E. 4E at night is ok until
>a point when 'comedy' begins. I think there's 2 hours of that.

I suspect it just feels like two hours.

<checks on BBC Sounds> Nope. It really is two hours. I'm afraid that I
feel a lot of it would fail if subjected to the Trades Descriptions
Act.

Nick