On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 14:24:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

>In Austria, scratchings are called 'grammeln'. One morning on the farm
>where I was living, they killed a pig (this was in the seventies, EU
>regs are doubtless more stringent now). The noise was dreadful (the poor
>pig knew what was coming) but mercifully brief. I only realised later on
>going into the huge larder room for onions and encountering the animal
>upside down bleeding into a bucket. Over the next few days every bit of
>it was processed and I'm positive the squeak was added to the front
>door's repertoire. Large joints were frozen - we had half a shoulder
>that Sunday - or smoked and hung up to dry in the larder, white and
>black and bratwurst-type sausages were made, and also brawn, and all the
>fat was carefully rendered into huge buckets of schmalz for future
>cooking. On top of the simmering pot accumulated all the little fried
>bits of skin or hard fat, these were regularly skimmed off and put into
>a box lined with absorbent paper, and salted for snacks. Golden, salty,
>juicy, crunchy, they were the Platonic ideal of scratchings. Jpeg, you'd
>have loved them.

As you say, every part used.
Move on now if you're squeamish about these things...

Some years ago I wanted a pig's skull. They are a strange shape with a very
flat rear. Considering how intelligent they are said to be, one wonders
where the brain fits in.
Anyway, not having a close relationship with a local slaughterhouse or
butcher, I asked a Morris Man of my acquaintance if he thought he could get
one for me - I knew he had a horse's skull - he danced with it. He made
enquiries and came back with the message 'it would cost me'. Partly because
the common way of dealing with the carcass starts by cutting it in half
from nose to tail, and also, the value of the brawn which would be harder
to extract than usual.

I have it still - the price was reasonable.
I think an older animal would have served me better from the point of view
of the bone structure.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On 09/01/2024 20:25, Penny wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 14:24:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
> scrawled in the dust...
>
>> In Austria, scratchings are called 'grammeln'. One morning on the farm
>> where I was living, they killed a pig (this was in the seventies, EU
>> regs are doubtless more stringent now). The noise was dreadful (the poor
>> pig knew what was coming) but mercifully brief. I only realised later on
>> going into the huge larder room for onions and encountering the animal
>> upside down bleeding into a bucket. Over the next few days every bit of
>> it was processed and I'm positive the squeak was added to the front
>> door's repertoire. Large joints were frozen - we had half a shoulder
>> that Sunday - or smoked and hung up to dry in the larder, white and
>> black and bratwurst-type sausages were made, and also brawn, and all the
>> fat was carefully rendered into huge buckets of schmalz for future
>> cooking. On top of the simmering pot accumulated all the little fried
>> bits of skin or hard fat, these were regularly skimmed off and put into
>> a box lined with absorbent paper, and salted for snacks. Golden, salty,
>> juicy, crunchy, they were the Platonic ideal of scratchings. Jpeg, you'd
>> have loved them.
>
> As you say, every part used.
> Move on now if you're squeamish about these things...
>
> Some years ago I wanted a pig's skull. They are a strange shape with a very
> flat rear. Considering how intelligent they are said to be, one wonders
> where the brain fits in.
> Anyway, not having a close relationship with a local slaughterhouse or
> butcher, I asked a Morris Man of my acquaintance if he thought he could get
> one for me - I knew he had a horse's skull - he danced with it. He made
> enquiries and came back with the message 'it would cost me'. Partly because
> the common way of dealing with the carcass starts by cutting it in half
> from nose to tail, and also, the value of the brawn which would be harder
> to extract than usual.
>
> I have it still - the price was reasonable.
> I think an older animal would have served me better from the point of view
> of the bone structure.

My mother was once asked to provide a roasted boar's head for some
celebration. She obtained a pig's head (I think with cheeks but minus
brains) from our resourceful butcher and stuck it in our capacious
glass-fronted oven with an apple in its mouth. She said it was a long
time before she could forget it looking reproachfully out at her as it
sizzled.

--
Kate B

In message <3u9rpid9vghklgng6mv2tjli8usmvfpkfm@4ax.com> at Tue, 9 Jan
2024 20:25:39, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> writes
[]
>Some years ago I wanted a pig's skull. They are a strange shape with a very
[]
My curiosity says I have to ask: what for?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Her [Valerie Singleton's] main job on /Blue Peter/ was to stop unpredictable
creatres running amok. And that was just John Noakes.
- Alison Pearson, RT 2014/9/6-12

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:12:41 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 09/01/2024 20:25, Penny wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 14:24:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>> scrawled in the dust...
>>
>>> In Austria, scratchings are called 'grammeln'. One morning on the farm
>>> where I was living, they killed a pig (this was in the seventies, EU
>>> regs are doubtless more stringent now). The noise was dreadful (the poor
>>> pig knew what was coming) but mercifully brief. I only realised later on
>>> going into the huge larder room for onions and encountering the animal
>>> upside down bleeding into a bucket. Over the next few days every bit of
>>> it was processed and I'm positive the squeak was added to the front
>>> door's repertoire. Large joints were frozen - we had half a shoulder
>>> that Sunday - or smoked and hung up to dry in the larder, white and
>>> black and bratwurst-type sausages were made, and also brawn, and all the
>>> fat was carefully rendered into huge buckets of schmalz for future
>>> cooking. On top of the simmering pot accumulated all the little fried
>>> bits of skin or hard fat, these were regularly skimmed off and put into
>>> a box lined with absorbent paper, and salted for snacks. Golden, salty,
>>> juicy, crunchy, they were the Platonic ideal of scratchings. Jpeg, you'd
>>> have loved them.
>>
>> As you say, every part used.
>> Move on now if you're squeamish about these things...
>>
>> Some years ago I wanted a pig's skull. They are a strange shape with a very
>> flat rear. Considering how intelligent they are said to be, one wonders
>> where the brain fits in.
>> Anyway, not having a close relationship with a local slaughterhouse or
>> butcher, I asked a Morris Man of my acquaintance if he thought he could get
>> one for me - I knew he had a horse's skull - he danced with it. He made
>> enquiries and came back with the message 'it would cost me'. Partly because
>> the common way of dealing with the carcass starts by cutting it in half
>> from nose to tail, and also, the value of the brawn which would be harder
>> to extract than usual.
>>
>> I have it still - the price was reasonable.
>> I think an older animal would have served me better from the point of view
>> of the bone structure.
>
>My mother was once asked to provide a roasted boar's head for some
>celebration. She obtained a pig's head (I think with cheeks but minus
>brains) from our resourceful butcher and stuck it in our capacious
>glass-fronted oven with an apple in its mouth. She said it was a long
>time before she could forget it looking reproachfully out at her as it
>sizzled.

Now why would I immediately think of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOTjbr2qSw

Nick

In message <v3htpid4qf65gj3mijdte0n3ku1d5cnipf@4ax.com> at Wed, 10 Jan
2024 16:24:02, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> writes
[]
>>My mother was once asked to provide a roasted boar's head for some
>>celebration. She obtained a pig's head (I think with cheeks but minus
>>brains) from our resourceful butcher and stuck it in our capacious
>>glass-fronted oven with an apple in its mouth. She said it was a long
>>time before she could forget it looking reproachfully out at her as it
>>sizzled.
>
>Now why would I immediately think of this?
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOTjbr2qSw
>
>Nick

I was expecting it to be this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Practicall every British actor with a bus pass is in there ...
Barry Norman (on "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" [2011]), RT 2015/12/12-18

On 10/01/2024 16:24, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:12:41 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 09/01/2024 20:25, Penny wrote:
>>> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 14:24:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>>> scrawled in the dust...
>>>
>>>> In Austria, scratchings are called 'grammeln'. One morning on the farm
>>>> where I was living, they killed a pig (this was in the seventies, EU
>>>> regs are doubtless more stringent now). The noise was dreadful (the poor
>>>> pig knew what was coming) but mercifully brief. I only realised later on
>>>> going into the huge larder room for onions and encountering the animal
>>>> upside down bleeding into a bucket. Over the next few days every bit of
>>>> it was processed and I'm positive the squeak was added to the front
>>>> door's repertoire. Large joints were frozen - we had half a shoulder
>>>> that Sunday - or smoked and hung up to dry in the larder, white and
>>>> black and bratwurst-type sausages were made, and also brawn, and all the
>>>> fat was carefully rendered into huge buckets of schmalz for future
>>>> cooking. On top of the simmering pot accumulated all the little fried
>>>> bits of skin or hard fat, these were regularly skimmed off and put into
>>>> a box lined with absorbent paper, and salted for snacks. Golden, salty,
>>>> juicy, crunchy, they were the Platonic ideal of scratchings. Jpeg, you'd
>>>> have loved them.
>>>
>>> As you say, every part used.
>>> Move on now if you're squeamish about these things...
>>>
>>> Some years ago I wanted a pig's skull. They are a strange shape with a very
>>> flat rear. Considering how intelligent they are said to be, one wonders
>>> where the brain fits in.
>>> Anyway, not having a close relationship with a local slaughterhouse or
>>> butcher, I asked a Morris Man of my acquaintance if he thought he could get
>>> one for me - I knew he had a horse's skull - he danced with it. He made
>>> enquiries and came back with the message 'it would cost me'. Partly because
>>> the common way of dealing with the carcass starts by cutting it in half
>>> from nose to tail, and also, the value of the brawn which would be harder
>>> to extract than usual.
>>>
>>> I have it still - the price was reasonable.
>>> I think an older animal would have served me better from the point of view
>>> of the bone structure.
>>
>> My mother was once asked to provide a roasted boar's head for some
>> celebration. She obtained a pig's head (I think with cheeks but minus
>> brains) from our resourceful butcher and stuck it in our capacious
>> glass-fronted oven with an apple in its mouth. She said it was a long
>> time before she could forget it looking reproachfully out at her as it
>> sizzled.
>
> Now why would I immediately think of this?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOTjbr2qSw

That's a brilliant rendition! Loll'd my little socks off.

--
Kate B

On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I was expecting it to be this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM

In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
inflicted on me. This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the ones
on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are Curry's
thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to buy
expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of Curry's
employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible? (Eating the pages of
an instruction manual, for eg.)

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> In message <v3htpid4qf65gj3mijdte0n3ku1d5cnipf@4ax.com> at Wed, 10 Jan
> 2024 16:24:02, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> writes
> []
>>>My mother was once asked to provide a roasted boar's head for some
>>>celebration. She obtained a pig's head (I think with cheeks but minus
>>>brains) from our resourceful butcher and stuck it in our capacious
>>>glass-fronted oven with an apple in its mouth. She said it was a long
>>>time before she could forget it looking reproachfully out at her as it
>>>sizzled.
>>
>>Now why would I immediately think of this?
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOTjbr2qSw
>>
>>Nick

> I was expecting it to be this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM

Aha! Well, the clue is not so much in the link as in who I followed it up to.

Nick

In message <l08kmmF8v5mU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 10 Jan 2024
22:40:21, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> I was expecting it to be this
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
>
>In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
>inflicted on me. This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the ones
>on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are Curry's
>thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to buy
>expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of Curry's
>employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible? (Eating the pages
>of an instruction manual, for eg.)
>
Yes, it's been on telly too. And they get "40 hours" of training -
suggested in a way that implies they think that's a lot.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited
(mik@saslimited.demon.co.uk), 1998

On 11-Jan-24 8:13, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <l08kmmF8v5mU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 10 Jan 2024
> 22:40:21, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>> On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> I was expecting it to be this
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
>>
>> In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
>> inflicted on me.  This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the ones
>> on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are Curry's
>> thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to buy
>> expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of Curry's
>> employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible?  (Eating the pages
>> of an instruction manual, for eg.)
>>
> Yes, it's been on telly too. And they get "40 hours" of training -
> suggested in a way that implies they think that's a lot.

40 hours divided over the full range of products they sell...

I suspect that 40 hours is actually spent training people to "sell", not
how to answer technical questions.

"It's really good, I've got one at home." (Said about any product)

--
Sam Plusnet

Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes:

> On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> I was expecting it to be this
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
>
> In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
> inflicted on me. This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the ones
> on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are Curry's
> thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to buy
> expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of Curry's
> employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible? (Eating the pages
> of an instruction manual, for eg.)

I do love occasionally going into Curry's and playing the clueless old
lady with the supposedly "expert" staff, giving them the runaround until
I have them tied in knots.

Rosie

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes:

> In message <l08kmmF8v5mU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 10 Jan 2024
> 22:40:21, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>>On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> I was expecting it to be this
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
>>
>> In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
>> inflicted on me. This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the
>> ones on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are
>> Curry's thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to
>> buy expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of
>> Curry's employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible? (Eating
>> the pages of an instruction manual, for eg.)
>>
> Yes, it's been on telly too. And they get "40 hours" of training -
> suggested in a way that implies they think that's a lot.

It's a lot of potty training I suppose. But they generally look as if
they need it.

Rosie

Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
> Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> I was expecting it to be this
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
>>
>> In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
>> inflicted on me. This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the ones
>> on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are Curry's
>> thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to buy
>> expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of Curry's
>> employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible? (Eating the pages
>> of an instruction manual, for eg.)
>
> I do love occasionally going into Curry's and playing the clueless old
> lady with the supposedly "expert" staff, giving them the runaround until
> I have them tied in knots.
>
> Rosie
>

There are a lot pf presentations on YouTube of ‘Old Woman with big bank
balances but IT illiterate’ taking scammers to the cleaners;-)))

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
> "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes:
>
>> In message <l08kmmF8v5mU1@mid.individual.net> at Wed, 10 Jan 2024
>> 22:40:21, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>>> On 10/01/2024 16:51, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>>> I was expecting it to be this
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HLy27bK-wU followed by this
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c3z8NP35XM
>>>
>>> In order to view one of those I had an advertisement for Curry's
>>> inflicted on me. This one wasn't *quite* as silly as some of the
>>> ones on TV recently but still leaves the question whatever are
>>> Curry's thinking when they suppose that people will be encouraged to
>>> buy expensive and very technical products by seeing simulations of
>>> Curry's employees behaving in the stupidest ways possible? (Eating
>>> the pages of an instruction manual, for eg.)
>>>
>> Yes, it's been on telly too. And they get "40 hours" of training -
>> suggested in a way that implies they think that's a lot.
>
> It's a lot of potty training I suppose. But they generally look as if
> they need it.
>
> Rosie
>

Take plenty of towels to wipe behind their ears too.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <unrifb$3g61t$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024 14:31:07,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
[]
>> I do love occasionally going into Curry's and playing the clueless old
>> lady with the supposedly "expert" staff, giving them the runaround until
>> I have them tied in knots.
>>
>> Rosie
>>
>
>There are a lot pf presentations on YouTube of ‘Old Woman with big bank
>balances but IT illiterate’ taking scammers to the cleaners;-)))
>
Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then some.
But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although they're a
near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on cruel. (Unless they've
given the impression they _do_ know something as more than just being
helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of technical knowledge among
the public is sufficiently low that they probably _can_ help in many
cases.])
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

WANTED, Dead AND Alive: Schrodinger's Cat

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <unrifb$3g61t$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024 14:31:07,
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>> Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
> []
>>> I do love occasionally going into Curry's and playing the clueless old
>>> lady with the supposedly "expert" staff, giving them the runaround until
>>> I have them tied in knots.
>>>
>>> Rosie
>>>
>>
>> There are a lot pf presentations on YouTube of ‘Old Woman with big bank
>> balances but IT illiterate’ taking scammers to the cleaners;-)))
>>
> Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then some.
> But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although they're a
> near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on cruel. (Unless they've
> given the impression they _do_ know something as more than just being
> helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of technical knowledge among
> the public is sufficiently low that they probably _can_ help in many
> cases.])

Am I alone in feeling that when I go into a shop for a bit of ‘tech’ (very
rare though*), having researched the product first and knowing what I want
and what features I am looking for, I have little confidence in the sales
drones being able to assist me with any further questions???

* Usually I carry out my research and order the goodies via the
interamazonnet.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 12-Jan-24 17:37, Mike McMillan wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <unrifb$3g61t$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024 14:31:07,
>> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>>> Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
>> []
>>>> I do love occasionally going into Curry's and playing the clueless old
>>>> lady with the supposedly "expert" staff, giving them the runaround until
>>>> I have them tied in knots.
>>>>
>>>> Rosie
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are a lot pf presentations on YouTube of ‘Old Woman with big bank
>>> balances but IT illiterate’ taking scammers to the cleaners;-)))
>>>
>> Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then some.
>> But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although they're a
>> near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on cruel. (Unless they've
>> given the impression they _do_ know something as more than just being
>> helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of technical knowledge among
>> the public is sufficiently low that they probably _can_ help in many
>> cases.])
>
> Am I alone in feeling that when I go into a shop for a bit of ‘tech’ (very
> rare though*), having researched the product first and knowing what I want
> and what features I am looking for, I have little confidence in the sales
> drones being able to assist me with any further questions???
>
> * Usually I carry out my research and order the goodies via the
> interamazonnet.
>
Quite. Having done some homework, any questions you still have are
likely to be well outside the scope of some random salesperson in
Curry's (or wherever).
They are expected to 'help' on any one of a few hundred different products.

--
Sam Plusnet

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes:

> In message <unrifb$3g61t$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024
> 14:31:07, Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>>Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
> []
>>> I do love occasionally going into Curry's and playing the clueless old
>>> lady with the supposedly "expert" staff, giving them the runaround until
>>> I have them tied in knots.
>>>
>>> Rosie
>>>
>>
>>There are a lot pf presentations on YouTube of ‘Old Woman with big bank
>>balances but IT illiterate’ taking scammers to the cleaners;-)))
>>
> Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then
> some. But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although
> they're a near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on
> cruel. (Unless they've given the impression they _do_ know something
> as more than just being helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of
> technical knowledge among the public is sufficiently low that they
> probably _can_ help in many cases.])

It is, unfortunately, a truth of the times we live in that the people
who use digital equipment today know a lot less about it than the rather
smaller number who did twenty years ago. This is deliberate of course,
and it applies to other things too, or at least a wider range of digital
equipment since everything seems to be that now. Back when I drove a car
I and most other people knew at least how to do basic stuff like change
a wheel, check the oil, clean the spark plugs and (as in the case of my
original Austin 1100) get it going again every time it sulked in a bit
of heavy rain. Not any more they don't, everything in a car is a sealed
unit that has to go back to the maker if it goes wrong, and I can't see
driving being much fun any more.

There's a lot to be said for machines like Oliver the Slovenian tractor
we used at Growing Well to shift the produce to the store. It was
laughably unsophisticated but made total sense when you realised that
when a part needed replacing deep in the mountains of Slovenia, the
local blacksmith could quickly knock up a replacement.

Rosie

In message <nTfoN.243100$p%Mb.21501@fx15.iad> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024
18:52:03, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>On 12-Jan-24 17:37, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>>> Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then some.
>>> But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although they're a
>>> near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on cruel. (Unless they've
>>> given the impression they _do_ know something as more than just being
>>> helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of technical knowledge among
>>> the public is sufficiently low that they probably _can_ help in many
>>> cases.])
>> Am I alone in feeling that when I go into a shop for a bit of
>>‘tech’ (very
>> rare though*), having researched the product first and knowing what I want
>> and what features I am looking for, I have little confidence in the sales
>> drones being able to assist me with any further questions???

I'm sure YANAOU, but I'm pretty sure we're unusual in that respect. The
increased complexity and lowered price of much such equipment have
changed the situation a lot.

>> * Usually I carry out my research and order the goodies via the
>> interamazonnet.

Me too - with the exception of one device, I haven't bought anything
tech for some while - and when I do, it's usually something that
Currys/PCWorld (and Halfords) probably wouldn't keep anyway.

(The device I've recently bought is a converter for 8mm film; I haven't
used it yet. Will report when I do, if I remember.)
>>
>Quite. Having done some homework, any questions you still have are
>likely to be well outside the scope of some random salesperson in
>Curry's (or wherever).
>They are expected to 'help' on any one of a few hundred different products.
>
Indeed - of widely differing types, such as vacuum cleaner, TV, washing
machine, computer. Though I _think_ they probably do specialise a bit -
knowing _something_ about most, but to ask their colleague if the
question is too specific.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm not against women. Not often enough, anyway." - Groucho Marx

In message <875xzyuzoj.fsf@golgonooza.co.uk> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024
19:19:56, Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> writes
[]
>It is, unfortunately, a truth of the times we live in that the people
>who use digital equipment today know a lot less about it than the rather
>smaller number who did twenty years ago.

It _is_ fair to say that it's mostly a lot cheaper though. (Of course,
in the case of computing equipment, increases in processing power,
memory, and disc capacity are countered by the inefficiency of the code,
but even taking that into account, it's still _mostly_ cheaper.)

> This is deliberate of course,

If you mean "built-in obsolescence", then that was true from about maybe
1970 or 1980, which lead into the present situation, at least public
acceptance thereof: that now the way it's made means it's cheaper to
replace than repair - not _necessarily_ deliberately so to rob the
consumer. Though the EC _is_ fighting _some_ things, like insisting
batteries be replaceable, and I think against snap-together (once)
casings. (Whether UK will benefit is interesting; I suspect - hope! -
that the manufacturers don't find it worthwhile to make UK-specific
versions. [Experience from the times of TV tuners - and perhaps LW
radios - would suggest otherwise, but I think increased globalisation
might come to our rescue there.])

>and it applies to other things too, or at least a wider range of digital
>equipment since everything seems to be that now. Back when I drove a car
>I and most other people knew at least how to do basic stuff like change
>a wheel, check the oil, clean the spark plugs and (as in the case of my
>original Austin 1100) get it going again every time it sulked in a bit
>of heavy rain.

(You remind me of my Vauxhall Ventora with the automatic choke that was
troublesome if you stalled after it had warmed up; IIRR, even my grandma
knew where to poke the spanner to get it going again!)

> Not any more they don't, everything in a car is a sealed
>unit that has to go back to the maker if it goes wrong, and I can't see
>driving being much fun any more.

To be fair, most of it is a _lot_ more reliable now, so I still enjoy
driving.
>
>There's a lot to be said for machines like Oliver the Slovenian tractor
>we used at Growing Well to shift the produce to the store. It was
>laughably unsophisticated but made total sense when you realised that
>when a part needed replacing deep in the mountains of Slovenia, the
>local blacksmith could quickly knock up a replacement.

(-: They've been repeating bits of Fred Dibnah in the small hours, on
channel 12 or 21 I think.
>
>Rosie
John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm not against women. Not often enough, anyway." - Groucho Marx

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:21:30 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <875xzyuzoj.fsf@golgonooza.co.uk> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024
>19:19:56, Rosie Mitchell <rcmitchell@golgonooza.co.uk> writes
>[]
>>It is, unfortunately, a truth of the times we live in that the people
>>who use digital equipment today know a lot less about it than the rather
>>smaller number who did twenty years ago.
>
>It _is_ fair to say that it's mostly a lot cheaper though. (Of course,
>in the case of computing equipment, increases in processing power,
>memory, and disc capacity are countered by the inefficiency of the code,
>but even taking that into account, it's still _mostly_ cheaper.)
>
>> This is deliberate of course,
>
>If you mean "built-in obsolescence", then that was true from about maybe
>1970 or 1980, which lead into the present situation, at least public
>acceptance thereof: that now the way it's made means it's cheaper to
>replace than repair - not _necessarily_ deliberately so to rob the
>consumer. Though the EC _is_ fighting _some_ things, like insisting
>batteries be replaceable, and I think against snap-together (once)
>casings. (Whether UK will benefit is interesting; I suspect - hope! -
>that the manufacturers don't find it worthwhile to make UK-specific
>versions. [Experience from the times of TV tuners - and perhaps LW
>radios - would suggest otherwise, but I think increased globalisation
>might come to our rescue there.])
>
>>and it applies to other things too, or at least a wider range of digital
>>equipment since everything seems to be that now. Back when I drove a car
>>I and most other people knew at least how to do basic stuff like change
>>a wheel, check the oil, clean the spark plugs and (as in the case of my
>>original Austin 1100) get it going again every time it sulked in a bit
>>of heavy rain.
>
>(You remind me of my Vauxhall Ventora with the automatic choke that was
>troublesome if you stalled after it had warmed up; IIRR, even my grandma
>knew where to poke the spanner to get it going again!)
>
>> Not any more they don't, everything in a car is a sealed
>>unit that has to go back to the maker if it goes wrong, and I can't see
>>driving being much fun any more.
>
>To be fair, most of it is a _lot_ more reliable now, so I still enjoy
>driving.
>>
>>There's a lot to be said for machines like Oliver the Slovenian tractor
>>we used at Growing Well to shift the produce to the store. It was
>>laughably unsophisticated but made total sense when you realised that
>>when a part needed replacing deep in the mountains of Slovenia, the
>>local blacksmith could quickly knock up a replacement.
>
>(-: They've been repeating bits of Fred Dibnah in the small hours, on
>channel 12 or 21 I think.
>>
>>Rosie
>John

Ah now your post is doing what Mike's have begun to do.Just has
'quoted text' instead of the text. So I can't see what you're talking
about

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 10:10:15 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <nTfoN.243100$p%Mb.21501@fx15.iad> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024
>18:52:03, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>>On 12-Jan-24 17:37, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>[]
>>>> Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then some.
>>>> But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although they're a
>>>> near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on cruel. (Unless they've
>>>> given the impression they _do_ know something as more than just being
>>>> helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of technical knowledge among
>>>> the public is sufficiently low that they probably _can_ help in many
>>>> cases.])
>>> Am I alone in feeling that when I go into a shop for a bit of
>>>‘tech’ (very
>>> rare though*), having researched the product first and knowing what I want
>>> and what features I am looking for, I have little confidence in the sales
>>> drones being able to assist me with any further questions???
>
>I'm sure YANAOU, but I'm pretty sure we're unusual in that respect. The
>increased complexity and lowered price of much such equipment have
>changed the situation a lot.
>
>>> * Usually I carry out my research and order the goodies via the
>>> interamazonnet.
>
>Me too - with the exception of one device, I haven't bought anything
>tech for some while - and when I do, it's usually something that
>Currys/PCWorld (and Halfords) probably wouldn't keep anyway.
>
>(The device I've recently bought is a converter for 8mm film; I haven't
>used it yet. Will report when I do, if I remember.)
>>>
>>Quite. Having done some homework, any questions you still have are
>>likely to be well outside the scope of some random salesperson in
>>Curry's (or wherever).
>>They are expected to 'help' on any one of a few hundred different products.
>>
>Indeed - of widely differing types, such as vacuum cleaner, TV, washing
>machine, computer. Though I _think_ they probably do specialise a bit -
>knowing _something_ about most, but to ask their colleague if the
>question is too specific.

Oh it's ok. My fault. I'd clicked to not display quoted text. I'm 78,
you know.

"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> writes:

>> Not any more they don't, everything in a car is a sealed
>>unit that has to go back to the maker if it goes wrong, and I can't see
>>driving being much fun any more.
>
> To be fair, most of it is a _lot_ more reliable now, so I still enjoy
> driving.

Yebbut all the roads have been ruined at the behest of boy-racers who
want to put their foot to the metal and go VRRRROOOM VRRRROOOM, so you
get channeled onto a big wide dual carriageway that doesn't go anywhere
or go through places with cafés to stop at.

Rosie

On 13-Jan-24 10:10, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <nTfoN.243100$p%Mb.21501@fx15.iad> at Fri, 12 Jan 2024
> 18:52:03, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>> On 12-Jan-24 17:37, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> []
>>>> Fair enough with scammers - they deserve all they get, and then some.
>>>> But with the poor innocents in Currys (and the like - although
>>>> they're a
>>>> near monopoly now, sadly), it's just bordering on cruel. (Unless
>>>> they've
>>>> given the impression they _do_ know something as more than just being
>>>> helpful, or at least trying to. [The level of technical knowledge among
>>>> the public is sufficiently low that they probably _can_ help in many
>>>> cases.])
>>>  Am I alone in feeling that when I go into a shop for a bit of ‘tech’
>>> (very
>>> rare though*), having researched the product first and knowing what I
>>> want
>>> and what features I am looking for, I have little confidence in the
>>> sales
>>> drones being able to assist me with any further questions???
>
> I'm sure YANAOU, but I'm pretty sure we're unusual in that respect. The
> increased complexity and lowered price of much such equipment have
> changed the situation a lot.
>
>>>  * Usually I carry out my research and order the goodies via the
>>> interamazonnet.
>
> Me too - with the exception of one device, I haven't bought anything
> tech for some while - and when I do, it's usually something that
> Currys/PCWorld (and Halfords) probably wouldn't keep anyway.
>
> (The device I've recently bought is a converter for 8mm film; I haven't
> used it yet. Will report when I do, if I remember.)
>>>
>> Quite.  Having done some homework, any questions you still have are
>> likely to be well outside the scope of some random salesperson in
>> Curry's (or wherever).
>> They are expected to 'help' on any one of a few hundred different
>> products.
>>
> Indeed - of widely differing types, such as vacuum cleaner, TV, washing
> machine, computer. Though I _think_ they probably do specialise a bit -
> knowing _something_ about most, but to ask their colleague if the
> question is too specific.

Who is likely to give an answer intended to promote a sale, rather than
spread enlightenment.
i.e. (I haven't a clue, but the customer wants to hear a "Yes" to that
question.)

--
Sam Plusnet