Hi,
this isn't the sort of enthusiastic response to "new" technology
that I'd expect to see.

https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/15/apple_vision_pro_returns/

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2024/02/15/apple_vision_pro_returns/
I can't see it on the UKlander site but I'm not going to work too
hard to find it. I couldn't afford one.

Apple seem to treat everyone not in USAlia as dumb, poor,
second-rate furriners too stupid to buy their gear until the Great And
Wise USAliens have had it for months and have praised the product and
told us lesser beings how magical it is. While that would irk were
they ever to produce something innovative that I wanted or could use,
in this case I'm quite happy with their policy of sneering at the
peasantry.

Still, does anyone here want a Vision Pro? Has anyone tried it? Do
you like it? Apart from making it lighter and giving it more to do
does anyone have suggestions on how to improve it?

Well, making it £3000 to £4000 cheaper may be one. :)

Discussion?

I'm not anti-Apple, I just pout when my tiny, little corner of the
world is left out of the fun. I do have an MBP I bought and a Mini I
was given. Both are cool kit and do cool stuff.

Anyway, would anyone have any use for a VP?

J.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 21:36:53 +0000, John wrote:

[snip]

> Still, does anyone here want a Vision Pro? Has anyone tried it?

No and no.

Now if Apple produced some night time specs that cut out the glare from
badly adjusted and/or too bright car headlights ..... Mind you they would
probably cost 4 times the price of what's already on the market!

--
Cheers, Alan

On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
(in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):

> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...

I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.

Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929

Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.

MST

On 17 Feb 2024 at 09:49:10 GMT, "Martin S Taylor"
<correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>
>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>
> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>
> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929
>
> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.

You'd still have to pay the 20% VAT and import duty on return, though.

--
Tim

On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:49:10 +0000, Martin S Taylor
<correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:

>On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>(in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>
>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>
>I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>
>Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929

Hmmm, thank you for that. You are right, there's often a UKlander tax
to stuff. It's not only Apple doing it and it's not simply our Customs
and Tax bods, either. Stuff here is more expensive than the same stuff
elsewhere. People buying astronomical telescopes used to complain
about that a lot.

But we're considered "poor" in that we need months and months to save
up for what the related species in USAlia can purchase on the morning
it is released.

>
>Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.

In my case, not.

There is also the issue of regionalisation to consider. UKlander
stuff uses proper language and nicely arranged keys on the keypads.
USAlien bits are all weird.

In some cases, French kit is cheaper than the same kit in UKland,
too, but I'd never consider buying a French keyboard. :)

I did note that you didn't disagree with the "dumb"?

J.

>
>MST

On 17 Feb 2024 at 10:05:24 GMT, TimS wrote:

> On 17 Feb 2024 at 09:49:10 GMT, "Martin S Taylor"
> <correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>>
>> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>>
>> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929
>>
>> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.
>
> You'd still have to pay the 20% VAT and import duty on return, though.

Most UK prices I've looked at are about 20% higher - that iPad does look to be
at the top end of price differences. So maybe VAT is the main reason?
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 17 Feb 2024 10:05:24 GMT, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

>On 17 Feb 2024 at 09:49:10 GMT, "Martin S Taylor"
><correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>>
>> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>>
>> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929
>>
>> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.
>
>You'd still have to pay the 20% VAT and import duty on return, though.

Hmmm .......
20% Value Added Tax takes the USAlien one to £762. I've no idea what
import taxes are levied at but it can't be more than 20% so that would
take us to £915 which isn't far from the price quoted above.

It seems as though the legendary "Apple UKland Tax" is not so large
as it seems to be.

Especially as almost everyone is applying some version of "it costs
more in England" to just about everything.

Perhaps Apple aren't really the bad guys?

J.

Note: all arithmetic was done using a Windows 7 calculator instance.
If the numbers are wrong don't blame me. :)

John <Man@the.keyboard> wrote:
> I can't see it on the UKlander site but I'm not going to work too
> hard to find it. I couldn't afford one.
>
> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USAlia as dumb, poor,
> second-rate furriners too stupid to buy their gear until the Great And
> Wise USAliens have had it for months and have praised the product and
> told us lesser beings how magical it is. While that would irk were
> they ever to produce something innovative that I wanted or could use,
> in this case I'm quite happy with their policy of sneering at the
> peasantry.

It hasn't been launched in the UK. Rumours are of a launch towards the end
of the year.

As it's a gen1 product Apple are soft-launching it, deliberately not trying
too hard to ramp volume at this point so they and developers can figure out
what works and what doesn't. They will probably then release a new revision
which has some of the bumps ironed out. They did this with the original
iPhone (2G), and then a few months later shipped the 3G.

What would be more interesting is when UK developers can get their hands on
it, since they risk being left behind. There is an official developer
programme but not sure if UK folks are accepted. I guess you can now order
online and use a US freight forwarder if you really want to - you don't have
to visit a US Apple Store.

Theo

On 17/02/2024 11:10, John wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2024 10:05:24 GMT, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 17 Feb 2024 at 09:49:10 GMT, "Martin S Taylor"
>> <correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>>> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>>>
>>>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>>>
>>> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>>>
>>> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>>> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929
>>>
>>> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.
>>
>> You'd still have to pay the 20% VAT and import duty on return, though.
>
> Hmmm .......
>
> 20% Value Added Tax takes the USAlien one to £762. I've no idea what
> import taxes are levied at but it can't be more than 20% so that would
> take us to £915 which isn't far from the price quoted above.
>
> It seems as though the legendary "Apple UKland Tax" is not so large
> as it seems to be.
>
> Especially as almost everyone is applying some version of "it costs
> more in England" to just about everything.
>
> Perhaps Apple aren't really the bad guys?
>

Have you allowed for US sales tax?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 17/02/2024 11:00, John wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:49:10 +0000, Martin S Taylor
> <correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>>
>> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>>
>> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929

You're missing out local sales tax from the USA model.

Taking Austin (Texas) as a random example, that's 8.25% (state + county
+ city taxes), so Martin's $799 becomes $864.92 and £686.50. Not as
cheap but still cheaper.

Presumably it'll be a used device when you fly back to the UK so you
will not want to declare you're importing it. I'm not sure if that's the
only or actual rule you're bending.

I'd expect if you tried to reclaim the local sales tax that might
trigger some "are you *sure* you're not importing this" type questions
when you fly back.

>> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.
>
> In my case, not.

Well if you happen to be there for other reasons, it is.

> There is also the issue of regionalisation to consider. UKlander
> stuff uses proper language and nicely arranged keys on the keypads.
> USAlien bits are all weird.

Not an issue on an iPad? Though if you wanted an iPad with a cellular
connection you might need a right-pondian version with a different
radio. Dunno.

--
Chris

On 17/02/2024 13:02, Theo wrote:
> What would be more interesting is when UK developers can get their hands on
> it, since they risk being left behind. There is an official developer
> programme but not sure if UK folks are accepted. I guess you can now order
> online and use a US freight forwarder if you really want to - you don't have
> to visit a US Apple Store.
However it won't work fully unless the Apple ID you use with it is
registered in the USA. Canadian purchasers have already discovered this
problem.

I suppose you could set up Family Sharing with a foreign family member...

--
Chris

On 18 Feb 2024, Chris Ridd wrote
(in article <uqsr26$11b6t$2@dont-email.me>):

> On 17/02/2024 13:02, Theo wrote:
> > What would be more interesting is when UK developers can get their hands on
> > it, since they risk being left behind. There is an official developer
> > programme but not sure if UK folks are accepted. I guess you can now order
> > online and use a US freight forwarder if you really want to - you don't have
> > to visit a US Apple Store.
> However it won't work fully unless the Apple ID you use with it is
> registered in the USA. Canadian purchasers have already discovered this
> problem.

They check this against the serial number? The model numbers are identical.

MST

On 18 Feb 2024, Chris Ridd wrote
(in article <uqsqs1$11b6t$1@dont-email.me>):

> > There is also the issue of regionalisation to consider. UKlander
> > stuff uses proper language and nicely arranged keys on the keypads.
> > USAlien bits are all weird.
>
> Not an issue on an iPad? Though if you wanted an iPad with a cellular
> connection you might need a right-pondian version with a different
> radio. Dunno.

Seems to be the same for iPads, though not for iPhones.

MST

On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 14:43:11 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 17/02/2024 11:10, John wrote:
>> On 17 Feb 2024 10:05:24 GMT, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2024 at 09:49:10 GMT, "Martin S Taylor"
>>> <correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>>>> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>>>>
>>>>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>>>>
>>>> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>>>>
>>>> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>>>> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929
>>>>
>>>> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.
>>>
>>> You'd still have to pay the 20% VAT and import duty on return, though.
>>
>> Hmmm .......
>>
>> 20% Value Added Tax takes the USAlien one to £762. I've no idea what
>> import taxes are levied at but it can't be more than 20% so that would
>> take us to £915 which isn't far from the price quoted above.
>>
>> It seems as though the legendary "Apple UKland Tax" is not so large
>> as it seems to be.
>>
>> Especially as almost everyone is applying some version of "it costs
>> more in England" to just about everything.
>>
>> Perhaps Apple aren't really the bad guys?
>>
>
>
>Have you allowed for US sales tax?

No.
I thought that was variable by State or possibly by City? And I
thought it was only applied in stores at the checkout. Is it a
national, federal thing and applied like our V.A.T. on everything
eligible?

Also, would not the online quoted price of a machine *include* all
relevant taxes? It usually does here though some second-hand resellers
make their prices look more attractive by showing the pre-VAT price in
huge letters and the VAT-added one in tiny print.

J.

On 18 Feb 2024 at 17:48:51 GMT, "John" <Man@the.keyboard> wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 14:43:11 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> Have you allowed for US sales tax?
>
> No.
>
> I thought that was variable by State or possibly by City? And I
> thought it was only applied in stores at the checkout. Is it a
> national, federal thing and applied like our V.A.T. on everything
> eligible?

No, local (state, city).

> Also, would not the online quoted price of a machine *include* all
> relevant taxes?

Not necessarily because if it varies by city then an ad would have to have
different prices all over the place.

--
Tim

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:49:20 +0000, Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com>
wrote:

>On 17/02/2024 11:00, John wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:49:10 +0000, Martin S Taylor
>> <correspondence@mRaErMtOiVnEsTtHaIySlor.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 16 Feb 2024, John wrote
>>> (in article<eikvsi964c1dcudubbgdu7q7h4ocuelibs@4ax.com>):
>>>
>>>> Apple seem to treat everyone not in USA as dumb, poor...
>>>
>>> I don't think 'poor' is what you mean here.
>>>
>>> Top spec iPad mini in USA: $799 (~£635)
>>> Top spec iPad mini in UK: £929
>
>You're missing out local sales tax from the USA model.

Yeah. I don't think I understand that. But I don't understand our
"Value Added Tax", either so that's okay.

>
>Taking Austin (Texas) as a random example, that's 8.25% (state + county
>+ city taxes), so Martin's $799 becomes $864.92 and £686.50. Not as
>cheap but still cheaper.

State, county *AND* city taxes? What the fuck?

Isn't it well past time that USofA eliminated "States", became a real
country and just had one tier of taxes nationwide? Also one set of
laws, one nationality and all that other good stuff?

Just think of the (International) trillions of dollars you could save
by eliminating layers of useless politicians.

Also the sales taxes.

>
>Presumably it'll be a used device when you fly back to the UK so you
>will not want to declare you're importing it. I'm not sure if that's the
>only or actual rule you're bending.

I wouldn't know. I've never imported anything from USAlia so far as I
can remember. I've never needed to.

I've bought from Amazon but I think they distribute from already
imported stock inside England.

>
>I'd expect if you tried to reclaim the local sales tax that might
>trigger some "are you *sure* you're not importing this" type questions
>when you fly back.

Not and issue in my case. I don't fly and I don't often leave
England's green and pleasant lands.

>
>>> Cheaper to fly to the USA and buy it there.
>>
>> In my case, not.
>
>Well if you happen to be there for other reasons, it is.

Yes, but that's the point I rather neglected to make clear. I don't
go to USofA. Ever. I'm terrified of the place. Also I don't have a
passport.

>
>> There is also the issue of regionalisation to consider. UKlander
>> stuff uses proper language and nicely arranged keys on the keypads.
>> USAlien bits are all weird.
>
>Not an issue on an iPad?

Well, the keypads are different [even the virtual ones] and there are
spelling and vocabulary differences. Minor, yes, but they exist.

>Though if you wanted an iPad with a cellular
>connection you might need a right-pondian version with a different
>radio. Dunno.

Nor do I. I thought GSM was *Global* but I could be wrong.

I do know that everything mobile I have ever bought in UKland has
worked with UKlander technologies but I suppose that's to be expected?
Sorry, a lot of the foregoing was off-topic.

J.

On 18 Feb 2024 18:09:32 GMT, TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

>On 18 Feb 2024 at 17:48:51 GMT, "John" <Man@the.keyboard> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 14:43:11 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Have you allowed for US sales tax?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> I thought that was variable by State or possibly by City? And I
>> thought it was only applied in stores at the checkout. Is it a
>> national, federal thing and applied like our V.A.T. on everything
>> eligible?
>
>No, local (state, city).

Right, cool, thank you.

I am more and more glad that I am not a USAlien. You lead complicated
lives.

>
>> Also, would not the online quoted price of a machine *include* all
>> relevant taxes?
>
>Not necessarily because if it varies by city then an ad would have to have
>different prices all over the place.

Yeah, that makes sense. Of a sort. So long as *everyone* knows that
the quoted prices are pre-tax and everything will always cost more.

Do USAliens instinctively add local taxes to every purchase? Is it
taught to you while you're young? Do you wander about with
calculators? Or do you simply trust that the tills are programmed
correctly and never check?

J.

On 18/02/2024 18:08, John wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:49:20 +0000, Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com>
> wrote:
> Well, the keypads are different [even the virtual ones] and there are
> spelling and vocabulary differences. Minor, yes, but they exist.

No, everything is controlled by your localized settings. When you set up
a device you choose the language, and you can change it later on in the
Settings app.

--
Chris

On 18/02/2024 16:22, Martin S Taylor wrote:
> On 18 Feb 2024, Chris Ridd wrote
> (in article <uqsr26$11b6t$2@dont-email.me>):
>
>> On 17/02/2024 13:02, Theo wrote:
>>> What would be more interesting is when UK developers can get their hands on
>>> it, since they risk being left behind. There is an official developer
>>> programme but not sure if UK folks are accepted. I guess you can now order
>>> online and use a US freight forwarder if you really want to - you don't have
>>> to visit a US Apple Store.
>> However it won't work fully unless the Apple ID you use with it is
>> registered in the USA. Canadian purchasers have already discovered this
>> problem.
>
> They check this against the serial number? The model numbers are identical.

No, they check your Apple ID. If you go to appleid.apple.com you can see
the country/region that you selected when you created your account.

Currently it says "your country or region cannot be changed at this time"

--
Chris

On 18 Feb 2024 at 18:08:30 GMT, "John" <Man@the.keyboard> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:49:20 +0000, Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com>
> wrote:

>> Taking Austin (Texas) as a random example, that's 8.25% (state + county
>> + city taxes), so Martin's $799 becomes $864.92 and £686.50. Not as
>> cheap but still cheaper.
>
> State, county *AND* city taxes? What the fuck?
>
> Isn't it well past time that USofA eliminated "States", became a real
> country and just had one tier of taxes nationwide? Also one set of
> laws, one nationality and all that other good stuff?

Some stuff needs to be handled locally. But they have an antiquated
governmental structure with no mechanisms to update it. So they have all these
tuppeny-ha'penny jurisdictions with far too much power. We have 45 police
departments in this country, give or take. They have more than 15,000.

>> Well if you happen to be there for other reasons, it is.
>
> Yes, but that's the point I rather neglected to make clear. I don't
> go to USofA. Ever. I'm terrified of the place. Also I don't have a
> passport.

I lived there 12 years, but did manage to get out like, intact.

--
Tim

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 18:51:15 +0000, Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com>
wrote:

>On 18/02/2024 18:08, John wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:49:20 +0000, Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com>
>> wrote:
>> Well, the keypads are different [even the virtual ones] and there are
>> spelling and vocabulary differences. Minor, yes, but they exist.
>
>No, everything is controlled by your localized settings. When you set up
>a device you choose the language, and you can change it later on in the
>Settings app.

Cool. I think I already knew that but had forgotten. It's been ages
since I set-up an iPad.
Thank you.

J.

On 18 Feb 2024, John wrote
(in article<cgi4ti9p6fe7mi5nlikqmg7cg8t6svb9tr@4ax.com>):

> Do USAliens instinctively add local taxes to every purchase? Is it
> taught to you while you're young?

Yes, and it drives US citizens nuts. In the UK you see something priced at
£19.99 so (if you happen to be paying cash) you hand over your £20 note and
get a penny change. In the USA it's priced at, maybe $25, so (if you're wise
to sales tax) you fish out $30 and find it costs $28.37, or some stupid
amount, and you have to faff about with ridiculous quantities of tiny coins.

MST

On 18 Feb 2024, TimS wrote
(in article <l3f2baFjcg7U1@mid.individual.net>):

> > Isn't it well past time that USofA eliminated "States", became a real
> > country and just had one tier of taxes nationwide? Also one set of
> > laws, one nationality and all that other good stuff?
>
> Some stuff needs to be handled locally. But they have an antiquated
> governmental structure with no mechanisms to update it. So they have all these
> tuppeny-ha'penny jurisdictions with far too much power. We have 45 police
> departments in this country, give or take. They have more than 15,000.

States' Rights is a huge thing out there, and the principle of each state
having its own rules was the only way they got the Constitution accepted in
the first place. Texas (say) is vastly more proud of being Texas than
Wiltshire (say) is proud of being Wiltshire.

MST

On 18 Feb 2024, Chris Ridd wrote
(in article <uqtjsg$1d40f$2@dont-email.me>):

> > > However it won't work fully unless the Apple ID you use with it is
> > > registered in the USA. Canadian purchasers have already discovered this
> > > problem.
> >
> > They check this against the serial number? The model numbers are identical.
>
> No, they check your Apple ID. If you go to appleid.apple.com you can see
> the country/region that you selected when you created your account.
>
> Currently it says "your country or region cannot be changed at this time"

No, I understand that they check your Apple ID to see what country you're in,
but how do they correlate this to your new iPad?

MST

Martin S Taylor <correspondence@mraermtoivnestthaiyslor.com> wrote:
> On 18 Feb 2024, John wrote
> (in article<cgi4ti9p6fe7mi5nlikqmg7cg8t6svb9tr@4ax.com>):
>
> > Do USAliens instinctively add local taxes to every purchase? Is it
> > taught to you while you're young?
>
> Yes, and it drives US citizens nuts. In the UK you see something priced at
> £19.99 so (if you happen to be paying cash) you hand over your £20 note and
> get a penny change. In the USA it's priced at, maybe $25, so (if you're wise
> to sales tax) you fish out $30 and find it costs $28.37, or some stupid
> amount, and you have to faff about with ridiculous quantities of tiny coins.

It amused me that the prices in the 'dollar store' actually came to $1.07
after tax. Rather defeats the business model of simplifying transactions
(hand over £10 at Poundland, get 10 items. Hand over $10, get 9 items and a
shower of change)

Theo