In today’s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
which doesn’t seem to be based on engineering reality.

“BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green “street
cabinets” into electric car-charging stations, in a boost for drivers who
worry about where they can top up their vehicles.

At present, Britain has 53,906 public chargers. Many are in petrol stations
but only an estimated 20,000 can be found on residential streets, often
built into lampposts.

BT’s new pavement chargers, which will be able to power six cars at a time,
will output the same 7.4kW as a standard domestic charger. This means an
electric vehicle will need to be plugged in for up to six hours for a full
recharge.

The initiative will be particularly welcomed by the many drivers without
access to off-street parking, or any other way of installing a charger at
their home, which leaves them reliant on public chargers. Many say they are
put off buying an electric vehicle (EV) due to the dearth of street
chargers.

Speaking ahead of the launch at a tech event in Las Vegas, Tom Guy,
managing director of Etc, the start-up incubation arm of BT Group, said:
“It’s for all those customers who don’t have a driveway and are woefully
undersupplied.”

There are almost 1 million fully electric cars on the roads, and the
government has set a target of 300,000 public chargers by 2030.

The telecoms giant said the cabinets, which are a familiar sight on
pavements all around Britain, are becoming increasingly redundant because
they contain copper-based wiring for broadband and phone services. These
connections are no longer needed once full-fibre broadband is fed directly
to a home: 25 million premises are due to have this option by the end of
2026.

BT, the country’s biggest supplier of mobile services and broadband, will
install its first charge point in Haddington, East Lothian, before the end
of January, followed by Belfast. A further 600 will be installed within the
next 12 to 18 months as part of the initial pilots. Drivers will pay as
they would at any other charge point.

Guy said using the existing green street cabinets would give BT an
advantage over rivals because the boxes are already on the grid and will
therefore avoid delays of up to eight months to wait for power firms to
make the electrical connection needed.

BT may also face fewer planning hurdles because it is seeking to convert
and add to existing street furniture, rather than starting from scratch.
Other charging networks have endured frustrating delays waiting for
planning permission and for the power to be connected.

BT has a further 30,000 street cabinets it does not believe are suitable
for conversion for various reasons, such as being too far from parking
spots.

Melanie Shufflebotham, co-founder of Zapmap, which guides drivers to their
nearest charging point, said BT’s plans could help fill some big gaps in
the network. She said that most of the UK was now well supplied with rapid
and ultra-rapid chargers for longer journeys, but the provision of
neighbourhood chargers outside London and the southeast remained patchy.

Shufflebotham said: “We are moving from early adopters and pioneers towards
the mass market, and they want simple solutions that mirror their
experience with petrol or diesel cars. When we ask EV drivers who don’t
have off-street parking, what they want is as close to off-street charging
as they can [get]. They would rather charge up close to home than in a
local charging hub or a supermarket.”

According to Zapmap, the biggest charging networks at present are: Shell
(8,036 charge points), which runs the Ubitricity network of lamppost
chargers; Pod Point (4,646), which concentrates on chargers at
supermarkets; and BP Pulse (3,539), which has a network of rapid and
“destination” chargers. Connected Kerb, which specialises in neighbourhood
charging, offers 3,032 charge points.

The switch to EVs has so far been led by company fleets and employees
taking advantage of generous tax breaks, as private buyers hold back,
according to figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and
Traders.”

On 07/01/24 16:45, Tweed wrote:
> In today’s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
> which doesn’t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>
> “BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green “street
> cabinets” into electric car-charging stations, in a boost for drivers who
> worry about where they can top up their vehicles.
>
> At present, Britain has 53,906 public chargers. Many are in petrol stations
> but only an estimated 20,000 can be found on residential streets, often
> built into lampposts.

Every single one which I have ever seen around here is in an area with
double yellow lines. I wonder how many of BT's 60,000 cabinets are
positioned where anybody can legally park?
--
Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond
Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollyromanov.me.uk> writes:

> On 07/01/24 16:45, Tweed wrote:
>> In today’s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this
>> proposal, which doesn’t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>>
>> “BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green “street
>> cabinets” into electric car-charging stations, in a boost for drivers
>> who worry about where they can top up their vehicles.
>>
>> At present, Britain has 53,906 public chargers. Many are in petrol
>> stations but only an estimated 20,000 can be found on residential
>> streets, often built into lampposts.
>
> Every single one which I have ever seen around here is in an area with
> double yellow lines. I wonder how many of BT's 60,000 cabinets are
> positioned where anybody can legally park?

That's not a problem, people just park on the pavement.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> In today’s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
> which doesn’t seem to be based on engineering reality.

OK, I'll make a start:

> “BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green “street
> cabinets” into electric car-charging stations,

Most of the cabinets around here are near street corners where parking
would be extremely dangerous (or is actually forbidden).

> BT’s new pavement chargers, which will be able to power six cars at a time,
> will output the same 7.4kW

That's going to need a lot of copper. 193 amps single-phase or 64 amps
three-phase.

Six cars lined up outside each cabinet will need some long extension
leads to reach the ends of the queue.

> they contain copper-based wiring for broadband and phone services. These
> connections are no longer needed once full-fibre broadband is fed directly
> to a home:

Ah! They don't need copper, thay are going to supply 44kW by optical
fibre. That should be interesting.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 07/01/2024 17:34, Molly Mockford wrote:
> On 07/01/24 16:45, Tweed wrote:
>> In today’s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
>> which doesn’t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>>
>> “BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green “street
>> cabinets” into electric car-charging stations, in a boost for drivers who
>> worry about where they can top up their vehicles.
>>
>> At present, Britain has 53,906 public chargers. Many are in petrol stations
>> but only an estimated 20,000 can be found on residential streets, often
>> built into lampposts.
>
> Every single one which I have ever seen around here is in an area with
> double yellow lines. I wonder how many of BT's 60,000 cabinets are
> positioned where anybody can legally park?

It appears BT actually has 90,000 cabinets. The article says:-

"BT has a further 30,000 street cabinets it does not believe are
suitable for conversion for various reasons, such as being too far from
parking spots."

... but I agree, I would have said there were more in unsuitable
locations than usable.

Dave

Liz Tuddenham wrote:#

> Ah! They don't need copper, thay are going to supply 44kW by optical
> fibre. That should be interesting.

1 watt over three 10m fibres

<https://www.fiberopticlink.com/product/fiber-optic-isolation-systems/power-solutions-for-fiber-optic-isolation-systems/power-over-fiber-system-pof/>

Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollyromanov.me.uk> wrote:
> On 07/01/24 16:45, Tweed wrote:
>> In today’s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
>> which doesn’t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>>
>> “BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green “street
>> cabinets” into electric car-charging stations, in a boost for drivers who
>> worry about where they can top up their vehicles.
>>
>> At present, Britain has 53,906 public chargers. Many are in petrol stations
>> but only an estimated 20,000 can be found on residential streets, often
>> built into lampposts.
>
> Every single one which I have ever seen around here is in an area with
> double yellow lines. I wonder how many of BT's 60,000 cabinets are
> positioned where anybody can legally park?

Ditto in my neighbourhood. No doubt good reasons as to why they were sited
where they are for providing phone services. The siting doesn’t seem to be
much use for EV charging.

Also given that the cabinets have none of the essential infrastructure to
turn them into chargers, I fail to see the advantage of conversion. Much
better to start with a clean slate!

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In todayâ??s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
> > which doesnâ??t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>
> OK, I'll make a start:
>
>
> > â??BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green â??street
> > cabinetsâ?? into electric car-charging stations,
>
> Most of the cabinets around here are near street corners where parking
> would be extremely dangerous (or is actually forbidden).

I assume there will be cables under the pavement to nearby parking bays, and
the cabinet will be the hub. You need a post next to the bay to mount the
socket to plug the car into. The cabinet provides the supply, switchgear and
data connection for billing.

> > BTâ??s new pavement chargers, which will be able to power six cars at a time,
> > will output the same 7.4kW
>
> That's going to need a lot of copper. 193 amps single-phase or 64 amps
> three-phase.

You would throttle output based on occupancy. eg you only provide 3kW per
car if all the spaces are occupied, but as soon as cars leave or become full
you can charge the remaining cars faster. Most people will be charging
overnight so 12 hours at 3kW would get you 36kW which is a decent chunk of
charge (~100 miles) and most people don't do 100 miles every day.

The question we don't know is what kind of supply these cabinets have - is
it a 100A domestic supply (maybe even 3 phase) or a bit of wet string to the
nearest lamp post?

Theo

On 07/01/2024 19:36, Theo wrote:
> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In todayâ??s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
>>> which doesnâ??t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>>
>> OK, I'll make a start:
>>
>>
>>> â??BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green â??street
>>> cabinetsâ?? into electric car-charging stations,
>>
>> Most of the cabinets around here are near street corners where parking
>> would be extremely dangerous (or is actually forbidden).
>
> I assume there will be cables under the pavement to nearby parking bays, and
> the cabinet will be the hub. You need a post next to the bay to mount the
> socket to plug the car into. The cabinet provides the supply, switchgear and
> data connection for billing.
>
>>> BTâ??s new pavement chargers, which will be able to power six cars at a time,
>>> will output the same 7.4kW
>>
>> That's going to need a lot of copper. 193 amps single-phase or 64 amps
>> three-phase.
>
> You would throttle output based on occupancy. eg you only provide 3kW per
> car if all the spaces are occupied, but as soon as cars leave or become full
> you can charge the remaining cars faster. Most people will be charging
> overnight so 12 hours at 3kW would get you 36kW which is a decent chunk of
> charge (~100 miles) and most people don't do 100 miles every day.
>
> The question we don't know is what kind of supply these cabinets have - is
> it a 100A domestic supply (maybe even 3 phase) or a bit of wet string to the
> nearest lamp post?

I looked into a hole SSE had dug for a cabinet being installed near me
back in the late 00s. They just tapped into (and with) what looked like
a bit of 16A ish SWA cable, that seemed to be between two lamp posts.

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In todayâ??s Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
>>> which doesnâ??t seem to be based on engineering reality.
>>
>> OK, I'll make a start:
>>
>>
>>> â??BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green â??street
>>> cabinetsâ?? into electric car-charging stations,
>>
>> Most of the cabinets around here are near street corners where parking
>> would be extremely dangerous (or is actually forbidden).
>
> I assume there will be cables under the pavement to nearby parking bays, and
> the cabinet will be the hub. You need a post next to the bay to mount the
> socket to plug the car into. The cabinet provides the supply, switchgear and
> data connection for billing.

Where are these nearby parking bays? I can’t think of a single local
cabinet that has nearby parking bays (or space to create bays). I don’t
think that factors that determined FTTC cabinet position are favourable for
EV chargers.

>>> BTâ??s new pavement chargers, which will be able to power six cars at a time,
>>> will output the same 7.4kW
>>
>> That's going to need a lot of copper. 193 amps single-phase or 64 amps
>> three-phase.
>
> You would throttle output based on occupancy. eg you only provide 3kW per
> car if all the spaces are occupied, but as soon as cars leave or become full
> you can charge the remaining cars faster. Most people will be charging
> overnight so 12 hours at 3kW would get you 36kW which is a decent chunk of
> charge (~100 miles) and most people don't do 100 miles every day.
>
> The question we don't know is what kind of supply these cabinets have - is
> it a 100A domestic supply (maybe even 3 phase) or a bit of wet string to the
> nearest lamp post?

Why would they have installed more supply capacity than they would ever
need? Seems unlikely to me that they would be able to power EV chargers.

Okay, many some can be converted but it has the whiff of a massive PR
exercise to me.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 07/01/2024 20:40, Tim+ wrote:

>>>
>>> Most of the cabinets around here are near street corners where parking
>>> would be extremely dangerous (or is actually forbidden).

I can't think of a single BT cabinet situated anywhere, where any form
of routine parking is possible or legal.

The world's gone mad !

On 07/01/2024 20:40, Tim+ wrote:
> Where are these nearby parking bays? I can’t think of a single local
> cabinet that has nearby parking bays (or space to create bays). I don’t
> think that factors that determined FTTC cabinet position are favourable for
> EV chargers.

The ones I pass on the way to my house are by bus stop bay. BT vans
tend to park at the end of the parking bay so they do not get in the way
of buses.

I don't think the bus companies are going to like the idea of cars and
vans parking in their bays for many hours whilst charging.

On 08/01/2024 12:49, JMB99 wrote:
> I don't think the bus companies are going to like the idea of cars and
> vans parking in their bays for many hours whilst charging.

Also of course in Scotland it is now illegal to park on the pavement and
I think other areas are changing their laws. Not clear yet whether they
are going to enforce this on vans (and police vans, ambulances and fire
engine engines) as these are heavier than cars so cause more damage than
cars.

On 07 Jan 2024 19:36:50 +0000 (GMT), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>>
>> That's going to need a lot of copper. 193 amps single-phase or 64 amps
>> three-phase.
>
>You would throttle output based on occupancy. eg you only provide 3kW per
>car if all the spaces are occupied, but as soon as cars leave or become full
>you can charge the remaining cars faster. Most people will be charging
>overnight so 12 hours at 3kW would get you 36kW which is a decent chunk of
>charge (~100 miles) and most people don't do 100 miles every day.
>
>The question we don't know is what kind of supply these cabinets have - is
>it a 100A domestic supply (maybe even 3 phase) or a bit of wet string to the
>nearest lamp post?
>
If the cabinet installed near me to provide the connections for FTTC
is anything to go by then they'll be connected to the street lighting
supply.

"JMB99" <mb@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:ungr9v$1hkej$3@dont-email.me...
> Also of course in Scotland it is now illegal to park on the pavement and I
> think other areas are changing their laws. Not clear yet whether they are
> going to enforce this on vans (and police vans, ambulances and fire engine
> engines) as these are heavier than cars so cause more damage than cars.

I would hope that emergency vehicles on a "shout" are going to be exempt
from those rules, otherwise the alternative will be that they will have to
stop in the road, blocking access for other people. Pedestrians and walked
bicycles have the option of crossing to the other pavement. Awkward,
inconvenient etc. Cars don't have that option and should be be made to
suffer for it.

Angus Robertson wrote:

> A separate lighting supply would normally be switched centrally in some way, to
> avoid having time clocks in every lamp post that would need changing regularly

20 years ago maybe, now they either have photocells or are controlled
over an RF mesh network.

> so not much use for day time charging.

Besides which, my FTTC doesn't cut off during daylight hours :-)

Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd <angus@magsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Openreach's advantage is more likely planning related, probably easier to
> install something next to an existing cabinet than get permission for new
> charging points. The cabinet in my road has parking places next to it, but
> doctors only.

It's possible this is really a cost reduction measure. Instead of having to
pay to remove cabinets and make good the surroundings, palm them off on some
other organisation who is willing to pay for (maintaining the) space. BT
don't care how practical or otherwise the proposed use case is, they just
want to make it somebody else's problem.

Theo

In article <l026eeF758fU2@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:

> The world's gone mad !

You've only just noticed? :-)

Britain and the west in general have been insane for some years now.
Reality is now defined as what "nice people" think it should be.
'Reason' is no longer allowed and science itself has to obey the new
doctrine or be cancelled and defunded.

The once great west is now utterly f***ed beyond hope by cultural
stupidity and eco-marxism.

Bob.

On 09/01/2024 10:46, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <l026eeF758fU2@mid.individual.net>,
> Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> The world's gone mad !
>
> You've only just noticed? :-)
>
> Britain and the west in general have been insane for some years now.
> Reality is now defined as what "nice people" think it should be.
> 'Reason' is no longer allowed and science itself has to obey the new
> doctrine or be cancelled and defunded.
>
> The once great west is now utterly f***ed beyond hope by cultural
> stupidity and eco-marxism.
>
> Bob.
>
Amen

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

[...]
> 'Reason' is no longer allowed and science itself has to obey the new
> doctrine or be cancelled and defunded.

Inconveniently for religious and political leaders, science has a way of
being proved right in the end -- but I don't know of any leader who has
honourably 'fallen on his sword' when the truth was demonstrated beyond
doubt and made obvious to everyone what a fool he was.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On 09/01/2024 13:16, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>> 'Reason' is no longer allowed and science itself has to obey the new
>> doctrine or be cancelled and defunded.
>
> Inconveniently for religious and political leaders, science has a way of
> being proved right in the end

Er no. it has a way of *not being proved wrong* AND *making testable
predictions*.

Religion is either proved wrong, if its detailed enough, or makes no
testable predictions.
Which is why it's theories are called 'metaphysical'.

> -- but I don't know of any leader who has
> honourably 'fallen on his sword' when the truth was demonstrated beyond
> doubt and made obvious to everyone what a fool he was.
>
I believe the odd Japanese person did.

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

On Tue 09/01/2024 13:16, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>> 'Reason' is no longer allowed and science itself has to obey the new
>> doctrine or be cancelled and defunded.
>
> Inconveniently for religious and political leaders, science has a way of
> being proved right in the end -- but I don't know of any leader who has
> honourably 'fallen on his sword' when the truth was demonstrated beyond
> doubt and made obvious to everyone what a fool he was.
>

If I remember rightly Lord Carrington was the last to so do?

On 08/01/2024 15:51, NY wrote:
> I would hope that emergency vehicles on a "shout" are going to be exempt
> from those rules, otherwise the alternative will be that they will have
> to stop in the road, blocking access for other people. Pedestrians and
> walked bicycles have the option of crossing to the other pavement.
> Awkward, inconvenient etc. Cars don't have that option and should be be
> made to suffer for it.

They often just stop in the carriageway even if they block it.

When there was a fire at a friend's house which was on a single track
road, the road was closed all day with no alternative route.

Now you are not going to tell me that the needs of a telephone network
current wise is not going to work for chargers, its bleedin obvious its not
unless its very low current. Are they on three phase? are they separate
from the mains for houses?. So many unmentioned questions.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:unekfm$14uc1$1@dont-email.me...
> In today's Sunday Times. I leave the team to pick holes in this proposal,
> which doesn't seem to be based on engineering reality.
>
> "BT is revealing plans to convert 60,000 of its dark-green "street
> cabinets" into electric car-charging stations, in a boost for drivers who
> worry about where they can top up their vehicles.
>
> At present, Britain has 53,906 public chargers. Many are in petrol
> stations
> but only an estimated 20,000 can be found on residential streets, often
> built into lampposts.
>
> BT's new pavement chargers, which will be able to power six cars at a
> time,
> will output the same 7.4kW as a standard domestic charger. This means an
> electric vehicle will need to be plugged in for up to six hours for a full
> recharge.
>
> The initiative will be particularly welcomed by the many drivers without
> access to off-street parking, or any other way of installing a charger at
> their home, which leaves them reliant on public chargers. Many say they
> are
> put off buying an electric vehicle (EV) due to the dearth of street
> chargers.
>
> Speaking ahead of the launch at a tech event in Las Vegas, Tom Guy,
> managing director of Etc, the start-up incubation arm of BT Group, said:
> "It's for all those customers who don't have a driveway and are woefully
> undersupplied."
>
> There are almost 1 million fully electric cars on the roads, and the
> government has set a target of 300,000 public chargers by 2030.
>
> The telecoms giant said the cabinets, which are a familiar sight on
> pavements all around Britain, are becoming increasingly redundant because
> they contain copper-based wiring for broadband and phone services. These
> connections are no longer needed once full-fibre broadband is fed directly
> to a home: 25 million premises are due to have this option by the end of
> 2026.
>
> BT, the country's biggest supplier of mobile services and broadband, will
> install its first charge point in Haddington, East Lothian, before the end
> of January, followed by Belfast. A further 600 will be installed within
> the
> next 12 to 18 months as part of the initial pilots. Drivers will pay as
> they would at any other charge point.
>
> Guy said using the existing green street cabinets would give BT an
> advantage over rivals because the boxes are already on the grid and will
> therefore avoid delays of up to eight months to wait for power firms to
> make the electrical connection needed.
>
> BT may also face fewer planning hurdles because it is seeking to convert
> and add to existing street furniture, rather than starting from scratch.
> Other charging networks have endured frustrating delays waiting for
> planning permission and for the power to be connected.
>
> BT has a further 30,000 street cabinets it does not believe are suitable
> for conversion for various reasons, such as being too far from parking
> spots.
>
> Melanie Shufflebotham, co-founder of Zapmap, which guides drivers to their
> nearest charging point, said BT's plans could help fill some big gaps in
> the network. She said that most of the UK was now well supplied with rapid
> and ultra-rapid chargers for longer journeys, but the provision of
> neighbourhood chargers outside London and the southeast remained patchy.
>
> Shufflebotham said: "We are moving from early adopters and pioneers
> towards
> the mass market, and they want simple solutions that mirror their
> experience with petrol or diesel cars. When we ask EV drivers who don't
> have off-street parking, what they want is as close to off-street charging
> as they can [get]. They would rather charge up close to home than in a
> local charging hub or a supermarket."
>
> According to Zapmap, the biggest charging networks at present are: Shell
> (8,036 charge points), which runs the Ubitricity network of lamppost
> chargers; Pod Point (4,646), which concentrates on chargers at
> supermarkets; and BP Pulse (3,539), which has a network of rapid and
> "destination" chargers. Connected Kerb, which specialises in neighbourhood
> charging, offers 3,032 charge points.
>
> The switch to EVs has so far been led by company fleets and employees
> taking advantage of generous tax breaks, as private buyers hold back,
> according to figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and
> Traders."

Brian Gaff wrote:

> Now you are not going to tell me that the needs of a telephone network
> current wise is not going to work for chargers, its bleedin obvious its not
> unless its very low current. Are they on three phase? are they separate
> from the mains for houses?. So many unmentioned questions.

Judging from the scars on the tarmac, most of them tap into the street
lighting supply.