So I was fiddling around doing some sums with the rocket equation
and came up with this. Would any astro-sheddi care to pick holes in it ? As
far as I can see there aren't any big ones - gizza grant!

http://www.sohara.org/Misc/Moon_Cheap.html

The rocket equation calculator I used lives here

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/ideal-rocket-equation

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Well, what about supplies on the moon, if you intend long term stay? Of
course the electric powered vehicle will be really slow at getting to the
moon. Most of these sort of engines are low thrust as you say, but I bet in
the long run people will want things now and not have to wait a few months.
Also, not all of the falcons successfully return and most need quite a bit
of work to fly again. I'm wondering if the costs of all this is being spun
down by Space X to get business.

Would be very funny if we got there and suddenly found an alien mining
operation somewhere there already, it would no doubt be more work for the
lawyers.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:20240120192650.7e310b7db279575f6a666a49@eircom.net...
> So I was fiddling around doing some sums with the rocket equation
> and came up with this. Would any astro-sheddi care to pick holes in it ?
> As
> far as I can see there aren't any big ones - gizza grant!
>
> http://www.sohara.org/Misc/Moon_Cheap.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.sohara.org/Misc/Moon_Cheap.html
>
> The rocket equation calculator I used lives here
>
> https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/ideal-rocket-equation
>
> --
> Steve O'Hara-Smith
> Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
> For forms of government let fools contest
> Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:34:00 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, what about supplies on the moon, if you intend long term stay? Of

The lander has a ten tonne capacity if it's not carrying anything
up again. An SET can ferry 35 tonnes of supplies or fuel to lunar orbit.
Obviously if a long term base is wanted there would need to be a suitable
quantity of fuel, equipment, supplies sending which would take more
launches and more SETs.

> course the electric powered vehicle will be really slow at getting to the
> moon. Most of these sort of engines are low thrust as you say, but I bet

All ion engines are low thrust, not really a problem.

> in the long run people will want things now and not have to wait a few
> months.

That's what the OTV is for - if you want it fast it costs a lot
more to get it there but it can be done. With this kit in place it would
probably make sense to ship fuel up on a regular basis and keep a stock in
LEO. If there's a permanent base then I'd expect there to be regular
supply runs using SETs and it would make sense to stockpile fuel in lunar
orbit and probably have more than one OTV with one (or more) based in lunar
orbit.

Most of the goods we buy from China spend weeks getting here on
boats because it's cheap, if you want it fast you pay extra for air
freight but for stuff you can plan you just schedule regular delivery. Same
deal.

> Also, not all of the falcons successfully return and most need

That's SpaceX's problem - they advertise a price, you can even book
a launch online. On the flip side when they get Superheavy going that's
expected to drop launch costs by a factor of 40 - they can miss that badly
and still make things much cheaper. It might be prudent to hold off building
a permanently occupied moon base until that's available. OTOH it does look
like it's cheaper to put a permanent moon base in place this way than to
launch a single stunt mission on SLS.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 21-Jan-24 12:31, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> That's SpaceX's problem - they advertise a price, you can even book
> a launch online. On the flip side when they get Superheavy going that's
> expected to drop launch costs by a factor of 40 - they can miss that badly
> and still make things much cheaper. It might be prudent to hold off building
> a permanently occupied moon base until that's available. OTOH it does look
> like it's cheaper to put a permanent moon base in place this way than to
> launch a single stunt mission on SLS.

Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious little
choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that company's
managers to make a profit for the shareholders.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious little
> choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that company's
> managers to make a profit for the shareholders.

That is what contracts are for.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>
> That is what contracts are for.

Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )

Avpx

--
Until an unfortunate axe incident, Gloria had been captain of the school
basketball team. (Soul Music)
Sun 11100 Sep 20:35:01 GMT 1993
20:35:01 up 3 days, 7:56, 7 users, load average: 0.30, 0.53, 0.44

On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:41:27 GMT
The Nomad <nomad@the.desert.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
> >> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
> >> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
> >> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
> >
> > That is what contracts are for.
>
> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )

We're a long way from building Mike/Adam Selene/Michelle/...

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 2024-01-21, The Nomad <nomad@the.desert.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
><steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>>
>> That is what contracts are for.
>
> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )
>
> Avpx
>

Yup. Where are our flying cars?

--
greymausg@mail.com
Is There not even an .Influencer to impale?
Charles I, beheaded, Charles II, killed by doctors, What is happen to Chuck III?

On 21-Jan-24 21:15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:41:27 GMT
> The Nomad <nomad@the.desert.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>>>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>>>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>>>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>>>
>>> That is what contracts are for.
>>
>> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )
>
> We're a long way from building Mike/Adam Selene/Michelle/...
>

A complex bustling sub-lunar colony, where all services and facilities
are run by ChatGPT.

--
Sam Plusnet

The Nomad wrote:

> the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )

I *knew* cryptocurrency would be involved ...

On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 07:49:05 +0000
Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:

> The Nomad wrote:
>
> > the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )
>
> I *knew* cryptocurrency would be involved ...

Nah Hassan-i-Sabbah's concubine.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Maybe they are just scared that China will do it first then.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Ahem A Rivet's Shot" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:20240121123111.1608f4efd21ca429ab30dea7@eircom.net...
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:34:00 -0000
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, what about supplies on the moon, if you intend long term stay? Of
>
> The lander has a ten tonne capacity if it's not carrying anything
> up again. An SET can ferry 35 tonnes of supplies or fuel to lunar orbit.
> Obviously if a long term base is wanted there would need to be a suitable
> quantity of fuel, equipment, supplies sending which would take more
> launches and more SETs.
>
>> course the electric powered vehicle will be really slow at getting to the
>> moon. Most of these sort of engines are low thrust as you say, but I bet
>
> All ion engines are low thrust, not really a problem.
>
>> in the long run people will want things now and not have to wait a few
>> months.
>
> That's what the OTV is for - if you want it fast it costs a lot
> more to get it there but it can be done. With this kit in place it would
> probably make sense to ship fuel up on a regular basis and keep a stock in
> LEO. If there's a permanent base then I'd expect there to be regular
> supply runs using SETs and it would make sense to stockpile fuel in lunar
> orbit and probably have more than one OTV with one (or more) based in
> lunar
> orbit.
>
> Most of the goods we buy from China spend weeks getting here on
> boats because it's cheap, if you want it fast you pay extra for air
> freight but for stuff you can plan you just schedule regular delivery.
> Same
> deal.
>
>> Also, not all of the falcons successfully return and most need
>
> That's SpaceX's problem - they advertise a price, you can even book
> a launch online. On the flip side when they get Superheavy going that's
> expected to drop launch costs by a factor of 40 - they can miss that badly
> and still make things much cheaper. It might be prudent to hold off
> building
> a permanently occupied moon base until that's available. OTOH it does look
> like it's cheaper to put a permanent moon base in place this way than to
> launch a single stunt mission on SLS.
>
> --
> Steve O'Hara-Smith
> Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
> For forms of government let fools contest
> Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Yes Thames water all over again.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Sam Plusnet" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:6SdrN.240108$c3Ea.88095@fx10.iad...
> On 21-Jan-24 12:31, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> That's SpaceX's problem - they advertise a price, you can even book
>> a launch online. On the flip side when they get Superheavy going that's
>> expected to drop launch costs by a factor of 40 - they can miss that
>> badly
>> and still make things much cheaper. It might be prudent to hold off
>> building
>> a permanently occupied moon base until that's available. OTOH it does
>> look
>> like it's cheaper to put a permanent moon base in place this way than to
>> launch a single stunt mission on SLS.
>
> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy of
> a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious little
> choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that company's
> managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>
> --
> Sam Plusnet
>

I was listening to one of the lady Astronauts being interviewed, She is due
to fly around the moon later in the year. but apparently at present, there
is a maximum number of flight hours an astronaut can do now, in order to not
get too much radiation. This does not bode well for Going to Mars or
creating a moon base, does it?

Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"The Nomad" <nomad@the.desert.invalid> wrote in message
news:XjfrN.381488$cRu4.241881@usenetxs.com...
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>>
>> That is what contracts are for.
>
> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )
>
> Avpx
>
> --
> Until an unfortunate axe incident, Gloria had been captain of the school
> basketball team. (Soul Music)
> Sun 11100 Sep 20:35:01 GMT 1993
> 20:35:01 up 3 days, 7:56, 7 users, load average: 0.30, 0.53, 0.44

I still feel that before we go prospecting, we should do the science before
it is mucked up by having humans digging all over the place.
Originally there were ten more Apollo missions planned but it was cancelled
to pay for the Vietnam War.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"maus" <maus@deb2.org> wrote in message
news:slrnuqra3n.16up.maus@deb2.org...
> On 2024-01-21, The Nomad <nomad@the.desert.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>><steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>>>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>>>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>>>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>>>
>>> That is what contracts are for.
>>
>> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )
>>
>> Avpx
>>
>
> Yup. Where are our flying cars?
>
> --
> greymausg@mail.com
> Is There not even an .Influencer to impale?
> Charles I, beheaded, Charles II, killed by doctors, What is happen to
> Chuck III?

On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 10:24:49 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> I still feel that before we go prospecting, we should do the science
> before it is mucked up by having humans digging all over the place.
> Originally there were ten more Apollo missions planned but it was
> cancelled to pay for the Vietnam War.

It was cancelled to pay for William Proxmire's pork barrel politics.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 10:21:34 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was listening to one of the lady Astronauts being interviewed, She is
> due to fly around the moon later in the year. but apparently at present,
> there is a maximum number of flight hours an astronaut can do now, in
> order to not get too much radiation. This does not bode well for Going to
> Mars or creating a moon base, does it?

It's a problem to be solved, the obvious answer for a moon base is
the one Heinlein used, build it underground. For getting to Mars radiation
shielding will be essential, water is good for that purpose and a while ago
I read about a fungus that absorbs radiation surprisingly well.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 10:21:34 -0000
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I was listening to one of the lady Astronauts being interviewed, She is
>> due to fly around the moon later in the year. but apparently at present,
>> there is a maximum number of flight hours an astronaut can do now, in
>> order to not get too much radiation. This does not bode well for Going to
>> Mars or creating a moon base, does it?
>
> It's a problem to be solved, the obvious answer for a moon base is
> the one Heinlein used, build it underground. For getting to Mars radiation
> shielding will be essential, water is good for that purpose and a while ago
> I read about a fungus that absorbs radiation surprisingly well.
>

Absorbing isn’t “shielding” though. Denim absorbs water well but doesn’t
keep you dry.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 2024-01-22, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 10:24:49 -0000
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I still feel that before we go prospecting, we should do the science
>> before it is mucked up by having humans digging all over the place.
>> Originally there were ten more Apollo missions planned but it was
>> cancelled to pay for the Vietnam War.
>
> It was cancelled to pay for William Proxmire's pork barrel politics.
>

The moon landings were a stunt, not a serious mission,

A book called "Packing For Mars" made the point that attempting to send
a mission to Mars was hokum.

--
greymausg@mail.com
Is There not even an .Influencer to impale?
Charles I, beheaded, Charles II, killed by doctors, What is happen to Chuck III?

The Nomad said:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
><steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>>
>> That is what contracts are for.
>
> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( not quite Robert A. Heinlein )

Is that why Zhfx wants to go there ?

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

On 21/01/2024 20:41, The Nomad wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:37 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:01:22 +0000 Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Once you have a manned permanent base on the moon, you are at the mercy
>>> of a commercial company who will recognise that you have precious
>>> little choice but to pay what they ask. It is the duty of that
>>> company's managers to make a profit for the shareholders.
>>
>> That is what contracts are for.
>
> Ref: the moon is a hash mistress ( Robert A. Heinlein )

"Gravity is a harsh mistress" 'The Tick' 1980s(?)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242949/quotes/

Chris

On 22 Jan 2024 11:24:15 GMT
Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

> Absorbing isn’t “shielding” though. Denim absorbs water well but doesn’t
> keep you dry.

It is for radiation which doesn't behave like water.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2024 11:24:15 GMT
> Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
>
>> Absorbing isn’t “shielding” though. Denim absorbs water well but doesn’t
>> keep you dry.
>
> It is for radiation which doesn't behave like water.
>

If heard of fungi that selectively take up radioisotopes but I don’t see
how that’s gonna protect anyone from solar radiation.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 22 Jan 2024 15:08:57 GMT
Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 22 Jan 2024 11:24:15 GMT
> > Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
> >
> >> Absorbing isn’t “shielding” though. Denim absorbs water well but
> >> doesn’t keep you dry.
> >
> > It is for radiation which doesn't behave like water.
> >
>
> If heard of fungi that selectively take up radioisotopes but I don’t see
> how that’s gonna protect anyone from solar radiation.

That wasn't the report I was referring to, the potential for use as
radiation shielding in spacecraft was explicitly mentioned in the article I
read a couple of hundred fortnights back. It seems this fungus was more
effective at stopping radiation than a similar thickness of water and
*much* lighter.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Mon, 22 Jan 2024 16:57:26 +0000
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> That wasn't the report I was referring to, the potential for use
> as radiation shielding in spacecraft was explicitly mentioned in the
> article I read a couple of hundred fortnights back. It seems this fungus
> was more effective at stopping radiation than a similar thickness of
> water and *much* lighter.

This appears to be the original that I read an article about.

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-chernobyl-fungi-shield-astronauts.html

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope