Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> Fair enough. You do whatever works for you. I haven't investigated
> everything the Zen Fritzbox can do but I think it can manage a few
> extras. The most customisation I've done is to change the local IP
> address range and the SSID to what I had been using with the previous
> router, deciding it would be less bother than changing all my
> connected devices. I also like to use a fixed range of local addresses
> for things that are actually fixed, such as the main desktop, TV
> streamers etc, and allow DHCP to do its thing with laptops and phones
> and everything else, and the Fritzbox can do this easily, so I'm happy
> with that too.

It may be that Zen's Fritzbox is fairly configurable as these things go, so
a lot of what people might want to do is possible.

But a lot of ISP routers are built to be cheap and have minimal
configuration options. That's my experience of Sky, BT and Plusnet's, for
example. Often they're developed in house and not even made by a recognised
brand.

The problem with VOIP causing a lockin is that you aren't then free to
switch them out for a more capable router to suit your requirements - even
the same Fritzbox you got from Zen might be a good upgrade compared with the
kind of junky cheap Technicolor router you used to get from Plusnet.

But if you do that you lose voice calls, which may make that a nonstarter.
At the end of the day you should not need to change ISP to get a better
router.

> When the internet was new, it was all fun and exciting and
> interesting, so I read about it and experimented and tinkered about
> with settings that should perhaps really be left alone, as I expect we
> all do with new stuff, but eventually it has become a basic utility,
> and all I want is something that just works. Maybe this means I'm
> becoming more sensible, or maybe it's just a feature of old age.

Which is fine, and probably the majority view, but not everyone is the same.

Theo

On Tue 07/03/2023 09:24, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 19:55:10 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham
> <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I understand that, but what puzzles me is why anyone wouldn't want
>>> to use the hardware supplied by the ISP if it does the job. It
>>> would make sense to use something else if the supplied hardware was
>>> deficient in some way, but what sort of deficiency are we
>>> considering here - reliability? wi-fi coverage? or lack of some
>>> special feature that you absolutely cannot manage without?
>>
>> I'm sure for "most people" you are correct.
>>
>> Myself, I use a few slightly less usual features like;
>> DHCP MAC address reservations.
>> Multiple Guest account Wi-Fi.
>> Mac filtering on Wi-Fi (yes, I know....)
>>
>> Essential? No but I'd not be happy without them.
>> Then there is how well a router does things like DHCP reservations.
>
> Fair enough. You do whatever works for you. I haven't investigated
> everything the Zen Fritzbox can do but I think it can manage a few
> extras. The most customisation I've done is to change the local IP
> address range and the SSID to what I had been using with the previous
> router, deciding it would be less bother than changing all my
> connected devices. I also like to use a fixed range of local addresses
> for things that are actually fixed, such as the main desktop, TV
> streamers etc, and allow DHCP to do its thing with laptops and phones
> and everything else, and the Fritzbox can do this easily, so I'm happy
> with that too.
>
> When the internet was new, it was all fun and exciting and
> interesting, so I read about it and experimented and tinkered about
> with settings that should perhaps really be left alone, as I expect we
> all do with new stuff, but eventually it has become a basic utility,
> and all I want is something that just works. Maybe this means I'm
> becoming more sensible, or maybe it's just a feature of old age.
>

Does it allow you to set your own domestic network encryption password?

On Tue 07/03/2023 10:27, Theo wrote:
> Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> Fair enough. You do whatever works for you. I haven't investigated
>> everything the Zen Fritzbox can do but I think it can manage a few
>> extras. The most customisation I've done is to change the local IP
>> address range and the SSID to what I had been using with the previous
>> router, deciding it would be less bother than changing all my
>> connected devices. I also like to use a fixed range of local addresses
>> for things that are actually fixed, such as the main desktop, TV
>> streamers etc, and allow DHCP to do its thing with laptops and phones
>> and everything else, and the Fritzbox can do this easily, so I'm happy
>> with that too.
>
> It may be that Zen's Fritzbox is fairly configurable as these things go, so
> a lot of what people might want to do is possible.
>
> But a lot of ISP routers are built to be cheap and have minimal
> configuration options. That's my experience of Sky, BT and Plusnet's, for
> example. Often they're developed in house and not even made by a recognised
> brand.
>
> The problem with VOIP causing a lockin is that you aren't then free to
> switch them out for a more capable router to suit your requirements - even
> the same Fritzbox you got from Zen might be a good upgrade compared with the
> kind of junky cheap Technicolor router you used to get from Plusnet.
>
> But if you do that you lose voice calls, which may make that a nonstarter.
> At the end of the day you should not need to change ISP to get a better
> router.
>
>> When the internet was new, it was all fun and exciting and
>> interesting, so I read about it and experimented and tinkered about
>> with settings that should perhaps really be left alone, as I expect we
>> all do with new stuff, but eventually it has become a basic utility,
>> and all I want is something that just works. Maybe this means I'm
>> becoming more sensible, or maybe it's just a feature of old age.
>
> Which is fine, and probably the majority view, but not everyone is the same.
>

IIRC Sky is a Huawei, and the BT range were or are made by Sagem. THe BT
units are doctored though as you can only select three predetermined
channels for wifi!

On 07/03/2023 12:11, Woody wrote:
> On Tue 07/03/2023 09:24, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 Mar 2023 19:55:10 +0000 (GMT), Bob Latham
>> <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> I understand that, but what puzzles me is why anyone wouldn't want
>>>> to use the hardware supplied by the ISP if it does the job. It
>>>> would make sense to use something else if the supplied hardware was
>>>> deficient in some way, but what sort of deficiency are we
>>>> considering here - reliability? wi-fi coverage? or lack of some
>>>> special feature that you absolutely cannot manage without?
>>>
>>> I'm sure for "most people" you are correct.
>>>
>>> Myself, I use a few slightly less usual features like;
>>> DHCP MAC address reservations.
>>> Multiple Guest account Wi-Fi.
>>> Mac filtering on Wi-Fi (yes, I know....)
>>>
>>> Essential? No but I'd not be happy without them.
>>> Then there is how well a router does things like DHCP reservations.
>>
>> Fair enough. You do whatever works for you. I haven't investigated
>> everything the Zen Fritzbox can do but I think it can manage a few
>> extras. The most customisation I've done is to change the local IP
>> address range and the SSID to what I had been using with the previous
>> router, deciding it would be less bother than changing all my
>> connected devices. I also like to use a fixed range of local addresses
>> for things that are actually fixed, such as the main desktop, TV
>> streamers etc, and allow DHCP to do its thing with laptops and phones
>> and everything else, and the Fritzbox can do this easily, so I'm happy
>> with that too.
>>
>> When the internet was new, it was all fun and exciting and
>> interesting, so I read about it and experimented and tinkered about
>> with settings that should perhaps really be left alone, as I expect we
>> all do with new stuff, but eventually it has become a basic utility,
>> and all I want is something that just works. Maybe this means I'm
>> becoming more sensible, or maybe it's just a feature of old age.
>>
>
> Does it allow you to set your own domestic network encryption password?

I've never come across even a cheap and nasty ISP router that at least
doesn't allow that.
Have you then ?

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Tue 07/03/2023 10:27, Theo wrote:
>> Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Fair enough. You do whatever works for you. I haven't investigated
>>> everything the Zen Fritzbox can do but I think it can manage a few
>>> extras. The most customisation I've done is to change the local IP
>>> address range and the SSID to what I had been using with the previous
>>> router, deciding it would be less bother than changing all my
>>> connected devices. I also like to use a fixed range of local addresses
>>> for things that are actually fixed, such as the main desktop, TV
>>> streamers etc, and allow DHCP to do its thing with laptops and phones
>>> and everything else, and the Fritzbox can do this easily, so I'm happy
>>> with that too.
>>
>> It may be that Zen's Fritzbox is fairly configurable as these things go, so
>> a lot of what people might want to do is possible.
>>
>> But a lot of ISP routers are built to be cheap and have minimal
>> configuration options. That's my experience of Sky, BT and Plusnet's, for
>> example. Often they're developed in house and not even made by a recognised
>> brand.
>>
>> The problem with VOIP causing a lockin is that you aren't then free to
>> switch them out for a more capable router to suit your requirements - even
>> the same Fritzbox you got from Zen might be a good upgrade compared with the
>> kind of junky cheap Technicolor router you used to get from Plusnet.
>>
>> But if you do that you lose voice calls, which may make that a nonstarter.
>> At the end of the day you should not need to change ISP to get a better
>> router.
>>
>>> When the internet was new, it was all fun and exciting and
>>> interesting, so I read about it and experimented and tinkered about
>>> with settings that should perhaps really be left alone, as I expect we
>>> all do with new stuff, but eventually it has become a basic utility,
>>> and all I want is something that just works. Maybe this means I'm
>>> becoming more sensible, or maybe it's just a feature of old age.
>>
>> Which is fine, and probably the majority view, but not everyone is the same.
>>
>
>
> IIRC Sky is a Huawei, and the BT range were or are made by Sagem. THe BT
> units are doctored though as you can only select three predetermined
> channels for wifi!
>
>
>
For 2.4 GHz there are only 3 non overlapping channels, namely 1, 6 and 11.
BT are probably saving users from themselves.

On 06/03/2023 14:47, Davey wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 04:05:43 -0800 (PST)
> Murmansk <stainburn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I find myself being mildly irritated when people seem think wi-fi
>> comes down a cable to their house whereas of course it's broadband
>> that comes in and the router that produces the wi-fi
>
> Only mildly? It seems to me to be a basic concept. Maybe they think
> that everything works like a mobile.
>

You may think so, but an awful lot of seemingly intelligent people
haven't got the faintest clue about what arrives by what means - be it
wired broadband, wifi, mobile data, etc. Only today, SWMBO tried to send
me an email from her mobile while out and about, and wondered why it
only actually got sent when she got back home and the phone connected to
the house wifi. It never occurred to her that sending an email required
an internet connection, which she wouldn't have unless she turned on
mobile date or was able to use wifi.
--
Cheers,
Roger

Roger Mills <mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/03/2023 14:47, Davey wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 04:05:43 -0800 (PST)
>> Murmansk <stainburn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I find myself being mildly irritated when people seem think wi-fi
>>> comes down a cable to their house whereas of course it's broadband
>>> that comes in and the router that produces the wi-fi
>>
>> Only mildly? It seems to me to be a basic concept. Maybe they think
>> that everything works like a mobile.
>>
>
> You may think so, but an awful lot of seemingly intelligent people
> haven't got the faintest clue about what arrives by what means - be it
> wired broadband, wifi, mobile data, etc. Only today, SWMBO tried to send
> me an email from her mobile while out and about, and wondered why it
> only actually got sent when she got back home and the phone connected to
> the house wifi. It never occurred to her that sending an email required
> an internet connection, which she wouldn't have unless she turned on
> mobile date or was able to use wifi.

So why doesn’t she have mobile data turned on? Then it would have worked.

Tweed wrote:

> Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> SWMBO tried to send me an email from her mobile while out and
>> about, and wondered why it only actually got sent when she got back
>> home and the phone connected to the house wifi.
>
> So why doesn’t she have mobile data turned on? Then it would have worked.

Probably not classed as "normal" to turn mobile data on/off manually
nowadays.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 12:11:36 +0000, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

[re Zen Fritzbox]
>Does it allow you to set your own domestic network encryption password?

Assuming you mean the wi-fi encryption password, then yes of course.

Rod.

On 6 Mar 2023 19:55, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ic8c0i1jlm37r8s5nslm2jnl5b10ki58vs@4ax.com>,
> Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I understand that, but what puzzles me is why anyone wouldn't want
>> to use the hardware supplied by the ISP if it does the job. It
>> would make sense to use something else if the supplied hardware was
>> deficient in some way, but what sort of deficiency are we
>> considering here - reliability? wi-fi coverage? or lack of some
>> special feature that you absolutely cannot manage without?
>
> I'm sure for "most people" you are correct.
>
> Myself, I use a few slightly less usual features like;
> DHCP MAC address reservations.
> Multiple Guest account Wi-Fi.
> Mac filtering on Wi-Fi (yes, I know....)
>
> Essential? No but I'd not be happy without them.
> Then there is how well a router does things like DHCP reservations.
>
> On my ISP router yes you can do it but it's very cumbersome and
> quirky. You can only add a pairing for devices the normal router DHCP
> has no record of. So if you connect something and then later wish to
> set or change the ip address allocation you first have to get the
> router to forget the device. That means disconnecting the device and
> re-booting the router and doing that is painfully slow.
>
> Similarly, my isp router does not give you the ability to decide if
> the guest wi-fi accounts can "see" the main Lan items or not and the
> guest accounts cannot be set to use IP addresses on a different
> scheme to the main LAN. My own router can.
>
> I don't consider any of those features unreasonable to expect from a
> decent router but I agree, they're not common.

I wouldn't bother trying to find a router to do all that.
I use a Cisco "business switch" and a mesh Wi-Fi system.
The switch provides DHCP and DNS and also L3 routing between VLANs and
the mesh system offers multiple SSIDs and the switch then controls
routing between them.

The standard ISP router has DHCP switched off and hangs off the switch.

Rupert Moss-Eccardt wrote:
> On 6 Mar 2023 19:55, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <ic8c0i1jlm37r8s5nslm2jnl5b10ki58vs@4ax.com>,
>> Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

Are you Marlen's son?

--
Graham J

On 08/03/2023 07:01, Tweed wrote:
> Roger Mills <mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 14:47, Davey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 04:05:43 -0800 (PST)
>>> Murmansk <stainburn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find myself being mildly irritated when people seem think wi-fi
>>>> comes down a cable to their house whereas of course it's broadband
>>>> that comes in and the router that produces the wi-fi
>>>
>>> Only mildly? It seems to me to be a basic concept. Maybe they think
>>> that everything works like a mobile.
>>>
>>
>> You may think so, but an awful lot of seemingly intelligent people
>> haven't got the faintest clue about what arrives by what means - be it
>> wired broadband, wifi, mobile data, etc. Only today, SWMBO tried to send
>> me an email from her mobile while out and about, and wondered why it
>> only actually got sent when she got back home and the phone connected to
>> the house wifi. It never occurred to her that sending an email required
>> an internet connection, which she wouldn't have unless she turned on
>> mobile date or was able to use wifi.
>
> So why doesn’t she have mobile data turned on? Then it would have worked.
>
Because, under normal circumstances, she only uses the phone for voice -
and doesn't even do much of that. Also, the phone is PAYG - so mobile
data costs money.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On Wed 08/03/2023 22:10, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 08/03/2023 07:01, Tweed wrote:
>> Roger Mills <mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 06/03/2023 14:47, Davey wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 04:05:43 -0800 (PST)
>>>> Murmansk <stainburn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I find myself being mildly irritated when people seem think wi-fi
>>>>> comes down a cable to their house whereas of course it's broadband
>>>>> that comes in and the router that produces the wi-fi
>>>>
>>>> Only mildly? It seems to me to be a basic concept. Maybe they think
>>>> that everything works like a mobile.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You may think so, but an awful lot of seemingly intelligent people
>>> haven't got the faintest clue about what arrives by what means - be it
>>> wired broadband, wifi, mobile data, etc. Only today, SWMBO tried to send
>>> me an email from her mobile while out and about, and wondered why it
>>> only actually got sent when she got back home and the phone connected to
>>> the house wifi. It never occurred to her that sending an email required
>>> an internet connection, which she wouldn't have unless she turned on
>>> mobile date or was able to use wifi.
>>
>> So why doesn’t she have mobile data turned on? Then it would have worked.
>>
> Because, under normal circumstances, she only uses the phone for voice -
> and doesn't even do much of that. Also, the phone is PAYG - so mobile
> data costs money.

My wife is the same. She has a simple smartphone so that she can use an
app and Bluetooth to adjust her hearing aids. Otherwise she carries a
Doro 612 as it more than satisfies her needs - when she switches it on
that is!