Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?

With the end of landline voice calls coming up, the ability to make a 999 call over a mobile network will become even more important: whether your whole locality has lost power and you suffer a heart attack, or your house loses power because of a fire, it is important to know whether you would be able to reach 999 by making a mobile call.

(I know that networks are supposed to provide battery backup units for those without a reliable mobile signal, but the BT one only seems to promise calls for the first hour of power failure, and the FTTP operator about to start up in our Derbyshire village is offering no backup power whatsoever).

I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G to make calls from locations that may not offer a usable signal on any of the networks for normal calls. But I find it difficult to believe that this will ensure 100% coverage.

Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea), how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the emergency services from home via their mobile?

John Geddes wrote:

> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?

Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
from any UK network, not just the network you're with.

> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G

Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
been gone for twenty years.

Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).

> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)

A very bad idea

> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the emergency services from home via their mobile?

look at coverage maps from every network.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> John Geddes wrote:
>
>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>> able to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>
> Doubtful you'll find a specific map, but anywhere that gets a signal
> from any UK network, not just the network you're with.
>
>> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G
>
> Err, no. They can only use networks that still exist, 1G in the UK has
> been gone for twenty years.
>
> Given that 3G is already been started turning off, then in the near
> future, what's going to be available is 2G + 4G + 5G and depending on
> your phone maybe VoWiFi if you're somewhere that has wifi you can
> connect to (and isn't suffering a power cut).
>
>> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea)
>
> A very bad idea
>
>> how is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the
>> emergency services from home via their mobile?
>
> look at coverage maps from every network.
>
>

Go to the settings of your phone and look for the bit that allows for a
manual scan of available networks. Any network that shows up will accept an
emergency call (mobiles don’t really dial 999) provided the phone is fitted
with an active SIM. Emergency calls will roam to any available network in
the UK.

John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>
> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,

This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
phones in the home.

> the ability to make a 999 call over a mobile network will become even
> more important: whether your whole locality has lost power and you suffer
> a heart attack, or your house loses power because of a fire, it is
> important to know whether you would be able to reach 999 by making a mobile call.
>
> (I know that networks are supposed to provide battery backup units for
> those without a reliable mobile signal, but the BT one only seems to
> promise calls for the first hour of power failure, and the FTTP operator
> about to start up in our Derbyshire village is offering no backup power whatsoever).
>
> I understand that 999/112 calls can use something akin to 1G to make
> calls from locations that may not offer a usable signal on any of the
> networks for normal calls. But I find it difficult to believe that this
> will ensure 100% coverage.
>
> Other than making a test call to 999 (which seems a very bad idea), how
> is a householder to predict whether they would be able to reach the
> emergency services from home via their mobile?

No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.

On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>
>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>
> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
> phones in the home.
>
Snip
>
> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>
This is misleading.
With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
backup battery.

Chris wrote:

> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.

power cuts aside ...

On Fri 04/08/2023 08:39, MikeS wrote:
> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>>> able
>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>
>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>
>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>> phones in the home.
>>
> Snip
>>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>
> This is misleading.
> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
> backup battery.

I wonder how BT will handle the location of an emergency caller. They
get CLI now which shows the address but will this still happen with BT VoIP?
Yes, I know VoIP service providers ask to to enter your address on their
web site so that such info can be handled correctly with an emergency
call, but will BT do the same?

Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Fri 04/08/2023 08:39, MikeS wrote:
>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>>>> able
>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>
>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>
>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>> phones in the home.
>>>
>> Snip
>>>
>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>
>> This is misleading.
>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>> backup battery.
>
> I wonder how BT will handle the location of an emergency caller. They
> get CLI now which shows the address but will this still happen with BT VoIP?
> Yes, I know VoIP service providers ask to to enter your address on their
> web site so that such info can be handled correctly with an emergency
> call, but will BT do the same?
>
>

Why wouldn’t BT do the same? At a guess it is a licence condition, given
that the conventional VOIP providers all ask for this information.

Woody wrote:

> I wonder how BT will handle the location of an emergency caller. They
> get CLI now which shows the address but will this still happen with BT
> VoIP?

You are supposed (required?) to register one or more addresses for
emergency location with your VoIP provider.

On 04/08/2023 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>
> power cuts aside ...
>

Well according to OFCOM 68% of homes with a landline only have a
cordless system which does not work in power cut. So for two thirds of
the population this is actually a "no change" to the status quo.

This was a problem during the extended power cuts we had , was it last
year?

So if your router becomes the DECT base station, and you put that on and
the ONT on a UPS, you actually have better resilience within the house
as typically DECT phones stay charged for a week, its only the base
station that needs mains...

Dave

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>
> power cuts aside ...
>
>

There seems to be an obsession with this emergency call during a prolonged
power cut scenario amongst some. The majority of landline users would
already fail to place a call as surveys have shown that more than half of
such users only have a mains charged/powered cordless phone - so it is not
something high on the priority list of the general public.

Another very large section of the public live in areas that rarely have
lengthy power cuts. The last time we had an outage of more than half an
hour was about 20 years ago. Those in power cut prone areas already know
they have to take steps to provide alternatives. For a router and ONT
combination a plug in power pack is the answer (ie something that doesn’t
suffer drain until it is needed, unlike a UPS). Perhaps even a UPS with a
button to switch in a reserve battery. The market will doubtless provide if
there is a genuine demand.

Perhaps a spot of user education will be needed though.

Very many people will be in range of an EE cell site, which will have to
remain operational to support the emergency service network. If their own
provider’s site fails emergency calls will roam to EE.

On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:

>On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>
>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>
>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>> phones in the home.
>>
>Snip
>>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>
>This is misleading.
>With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>backup battery.

I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
life.

Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.

The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
about being hit by lightning.

On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
>
>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>
>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>
>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>> phones in the home.
>>>
>> Snip
>>>
>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>
>> This is misleading.
>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>> backup battery.
>
> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
> life.
>
> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.
>
> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
> about being hit by lightning.

105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.

I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>>
>>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>>> phones in the home.
>>>>
>>> Snip
>>>>
>>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>>
>>> This is misleading.
>>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>>> backup battery.
>>
>> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
>> life.
>>
>> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
>> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.
>>
>> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
>> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
>> about being hit by lightning.
>
> 105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
> highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
> roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
> and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.
>
> I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.
>

In my experience, it is impossible to get through to the power company in
the event of a power cut, because everyone else is trying to do the same
thing.

On 04/08/2023 09:11, Woody wrote:
> On Fri 04/08/2023 08:39, MikeS wrote:
>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be
>>>> able
>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>
>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>
>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have
>>> wired
>>> phones in the home.
>>>
>> Snip
>>>
>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>
>> This is misleading.
>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a
>> working backup battery.
>
> I wonder how BT will handle the location of an emergency caller. They
> get CLI now which shows the address but will this still happen with BT
> VoIP?
> Yes, I know VoIP service providers ask to to enter your address on their
>  web site so that such info can be handled correctly with an emergency
> call, but will BT do the same?
>

With BT Digital Voice there is no need. Its a "closed" system. You can
only use it with the equipment they provide. It only works at the
premises they install it in. So in essence its a phone line. This is how
BT sells it and charges for it.

This makes it idiot proof, but less versatile than other systems.

Dave

On 04/08/2023 11:15, Tweed wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> 105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
>> highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
>> roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
>> and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.
>>
>> I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.
>>
>
> In my experience, it is impossible to get through to the power company in
> the event of a power cut, because everyone else is trying to do the same
> thing.

I've never had a long wait with Electricty North West.

MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>
>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>
>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>> phones in the home.
>>
> Snip
>>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>
> This is misleading.
> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
> backup battery.

That's a very different issue. Whether and how VOIP works during power
failure is a subset of being able to access 999.

The OP makes no reference to power failures, but more about signal
availability.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>
> power cuts aside ...

The overlap of power cuts and the need to make a 999 call is small.

There are times when A) there's power and an emergency, B) no power and no
emergency and C) no power and an emergency.

The frequency scales: A > B > C.

The C scenarios are often headline news so the emergency services already
know.

On 04/08/2023 11:27, David Wade wrote:
> On 04/08/2023 09:11, Woody wrote:
>> On Fri 04/08/2023 08:39, MikeS wrote:
>>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should
>>>>> be able
>>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>>
>>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have
>>>> wired
>>>> phones in the home.
>>>>
>>> Snip
>>>>
>>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as
>>>> now.
>>>>
>>> This is misleading.
>>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will
>>> use VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a
>>> working backup battery.
>>
>> I wonder how BT will handle the location of an emergency caller. They
>> get CLI now which shows the address but will this still happen with
>> BT VoIP?
>> Yes, I know VoIP service providers ask to to enter your address on
>> their   web site so that such info can be handled correctly with an
>> emergency call, but will BT do the same?
>>
>
> With BT Digital Voice there is no need. Its a "closed" system. You can
> only use it with the equipment they provide. It only works at the
> premises they install it in. So in essence its a phone line.
Actually I wonder about that. I can certainly use my Plusnet broadband
'connection' on someone else's Plusnet 'line (Although not tried it on a
different exchange ?)

I wonder if you were to pick up your BT Hub and do the same, whether the
VoIP would also work ?

On 04/08/2023 11:15, Tweed wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>>>> phones in the home.
>>>>>
>>>> Snip
>>>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>>>
>>>> This is misleading.
>>>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>>>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>>>> backup battery.
>>> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
>>> life.
>>>
>>> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
>>> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.
>>>
>>> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
>>> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
>>> about being hit by lightning.
>> 105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
>> highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
>> roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
>> and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.
>>
>> I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.
>>
> In my experience, it is impossible to get through to the power company in
> the event of a power cut, because everyone else is trying to do the same
> thing.
>
Yes, and it's pointless in those sort of power cuts, because IMHO the
DNO's telemetry picks up the issue straight away, and it's on the
tracker app within seconds.

For smaller power cuts (like a handful of homes) then the telemetry
probably won't, but it doesn't matter, because you will be able to get
through !

On 04/08/2023 13:05, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 04/08/2023 11:27, David Wade wrote:
>> On 04/08/2023 09:11, Woody wrote:
>>> On Fri 04/08/2023 08:39, MikeS wrote:
>>>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should
>>>>>> be able
>>>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have
>>>>> wired
>>>>> phones in the home.
>>>>>
>>>> Snip
>>>>>
>>>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as
>>>>> now.
>>>>>
>>>> This is misleading.
>>>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will
>>>> use VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a
>>>> working backup battery.
>>>
>>> I wonder how BT will handle the location of an emergency caller. They
>>> get CLI now which shows the address but will this still happen with
>>> BT VoIP?
>>> Yes, I know VoIP service providers ask to to enter your address on
>>> their   web site so that such info can be handled correctly with an
>>> emergency call, but will BT do the same?
>>>
>>
>> With BT Digital Voice there is no need. Its a "closed" system. You can
>> only use it with the equipment they provide. It only works at the
>> premises they install it in. So in essence its a phone line.

> Actually I wonder about that. I can certainly use my Plusnet broadband
> 'connection' on someone else's Plusnet 'line (Although not tried it on a
> different exchange ?)
>

Well it would, but note you specify the username and password....

> I wonder if you were to pick up your BT Hub and do the same, whether the
> VoIP would also work ?
>

Interesting question. I am not sure how Digital Voice is configured
because there must be a process within BT to reload the config when they
send you a new router. I would expect it to move but I am pretty sure BT
don't expect you to be carrying your router round.

Dave

David Wade wrote:

> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> I can certainly use my Plusnet broadband 'connection' on someone
>> else's Plusnet 'line (Although not tried it on a different exchange
>> ?)
>
> Well it would, but note you specify the username and password....
>
>> I wonder if you were to pick up your BT Hub and do the same, whether
>> the VoIP would also work ?

AIUI BT Broadband doesn't require username/password, it "knows" the
lineID it's connected to and Just Works™️ their VoIP could benefit from
knowing the same ID?

On 04/08/2023 14:05, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>> I can certainly use my Plusnet broadband 'connection' on someone
>>> else's Plusnet 'line (Although not tried it on a different exchange
>>> ?)
>>
>> Well it would, but note you specify the username and password....
>>
>>> I wonder if you were to pick up your BT Hub and do the same, whether the
>>> VoIP would also work ?
>
> AIUI BT Broadband doesn't require username/password, it "knows" the lineID
> it's connected to and Just Works™️ their VoIP could benefit from knowing the
> same ID?

My BT Smart Hub has a non-unique username and no password.
Currently 'voice' is 'Not configured', so I don't know whether that
config would be stored on the Hub, or set up when connected to a suitable line.

Nick Finnigan wrote:

>  My BT Smart Hub has a non-unique username and no password.
>  Currently 'voice' is 'Not configured', so I don't know whether that
> config would be stored on the Hub, or set up when connected to a
> suitable line.

The other alternative is voice configuration by TR-069

On 04/08/2023 14:05, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> David Wade wrote:
>
>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>> I can certainly use my Plusnet broadband 'connection' on someone
>>> else's Plusnet 'line (Although not tried it on a different exchange
>>> ?)
>>
>> Well it would, but note you specify the username and password....
>>
>>> I wonder if you were to pick up your BT Hub and do the same, whether
>>> the VoIP would also work ?
>
> AIUI BT Broadband doesn't require username/password, it "knows" the
> lineID it's connected to and Just Works™️

That is indeed the case. One of our sons moved house recently, there
were only 8 days between exchange and completion, so when he rang Sky
Broadband on exchange day, they were unable to transfer his service to
the new address until 14 days after he called (14 day anti-slamming
measure and all that)

The old owners also hadn't done anything about moving their service at
all, which (according to their seller's information form) was BT
(pointless the seller's form evening having that as a parameter, but hey)

So the day he moved in, I brought round one of my spare routers,
configured it with <bthomehub@btbroadband.com> as the username, and <bt>
as the password (anything will do I'm told) and hey presto, a week's
worth of someone else's broadband. A week later, on 'Day 14', it stopped
working (as expected). He plugged his Sky Router in, and carried on....

(I did advise him probably not to surf or connect to anything that might
'attract attention' during that week ! )