https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-jewish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/

It reminds me of a previous controversy in north London:

https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/21369177.west-hampstead-eruv-gets-go-ahead/

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/

Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
backwards to accomodate them.

>
>It reminds me of a previous controversy in north London:
>
>https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/21369177.west-hampstead-eruv-gets-go-ahead/

I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them whether
they really believe in any of it in the first place or its just social
conforming to a ridiculous extent.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>
> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
> backwards to accomodate them.

What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
aren't under the same roof at all.

>
>>
>> It reminds me of a previous controversy in north London:
>>
>> https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/21369177.west-hampstead-eruv-gets-go-ahead/
>
> I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
> are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them whether
> they really believe in any of it in the first place or its just social
> conforming to a ridiculous extent.

Yes, I came across other examples like that in Israel. Some scholar tries
to apply ancient religious rules to the modern world, with strange results,
and someone else comes up with an equally religious loophole.

The theory is that by following all these rules and loopholes, the
believers are constantly reminded of their god, and don'thave time to go
off sinning. They think that's better than Catholics who can commit lots of
sins six days a week, but it's all OK if they confess and atone on one day
a week.

On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>
>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
>> backwards to accomodate them.
>
> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
> aren't under the same roof at all.
>
There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 28/11/2023 10:13, Robin wrote:
> On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>>
>>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't
>>> pander to
>>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking
>>> suspicion that
>>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have
>>> bent over
>>> backwards to accomodate them.
>>
>> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
>> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
>> aren't under the same roof at all.
>>
> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
> the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
>

Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
them before allowing his flock to use the tube.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>>
>>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
>>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
>>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
>>> backwards to accomodate them.
>>
>> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
>> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
>> aren't under the same roof at all.
>>
> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
> the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
>

I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
wouldn't be acceptable.

I wonder if something as simple as an extended railing on the steps, that
forced people and ghosts to step away from the building when moving between
the subway and museum entrance, would satisfy them? That's all that the
ugly steel sheet would do. Or perhaps the idea is to stop any ghosts being
able to see the subway entrance as they peer out of the museum entrance?

In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
>organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
>number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
>them before allowing his flock to use the tube.

My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).

Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
others to pay for his taxi).

As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
in the local time.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>> to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
>> organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
>> number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
>> them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
>
> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).

No, they're not.

>
> Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
> (although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
> others to pay for his taxi).

This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.

On 28/11/2023 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>> to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of
>> different organisations, some of which may well contain human remains
>> for any number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every
>> one of them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
>
> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>
> Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
> (although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
> others to pay for his taxi).
>
> As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
> regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
> timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
> in the local time.

They would probably need to be over the Pacific, taking off in daylight
on Friday evening and landing in darkness on Saturday evening having
crossed the date line westwards. I believe they'd have to sit back and
relax for either the dark bit before crossing the line or the light bit
after crossing it, which might be quite brief.

Another interesting case is a very fast plane[1] or an arctic route to
see the sun set, rise and set again on Friday or Saturday evening.

[1] probably military, since the demise of Concorde

Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
> On 28/11/2023 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>>> to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of
>>> different organisations, some of which may well contain human remains
>>> for any number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every
>>> one of them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
>>
>> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
>> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>>
>> Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
>> (although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
>> others to pay for his taxi).
>>
>> As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
>> regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
>> timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
>> in the local time.
>
> They would probably need to be over the Pacific, taking off in daylight
> on Friday evening and landing in darkness on Saturday evening having
> crossed the date line westwards. I believe they'd have to sit back and
> relax for either the dark bit before crossing the line or the light bit
> after crossing it, which might be quite brief.
>
> Another interesting case is a very fast plane[1] or an arctic route to
> see the sun set, rise and set again on Friday or Saturday evening.
>
> [1] probably military, since the demise of Concorde
>

I would have thought that travelling on a plane at all wasn't allowed on
the Sabbath. Similarly, most of the airport experiences probably break the
rules. Of course, exceptions can be granted if necessary:

https://www.thejc.com/news/el-al-breaks-shabbat-flight-ban-for-first-time-in-40-years-to-bring-troops-to-israel-d0zys72u

This ban on El Al flying on the Sabbath is controversial, because many
Israelis would be happy to fly on the Sabbath, and the airline would like
its planes to be earning money seven days a week.

On 28/11/2023 10:30, Recliner wrote:
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>>>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>>>
>>>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
>>>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
>>>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
>>>> backwards to accomodate them.
>>>
>>> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
>>> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
>>> aren't under the same roof at all.
>>>
>> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
>> the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
>>
>
> I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
> wouldn't be acceptable.

I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 28/11/2023 10:30, Recliner wrote:
>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>>>>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>>>>
>>>>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
>>>>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
>>>>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
>>>>> backwards to accomodate them.
>>>>
>>>> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
>>>> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
>>>> aren't under the same roof at all.
>>>>
>>> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
>>> the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
>> wouldn't be acceptable.
>
> I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
> trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
> outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
> however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
> law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
> the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.

The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.

It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
this issue is nothing to do with the Sabbath). This piece gives a flavour:

https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/

I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.

In message <VXj9N.50268$hCA.32309@fx15.ams1>, at 11:13:57 on Tue, 28 Nov
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>>> to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
>>> organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
>>> number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
>>> them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
>>
>> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
>> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>
>No, they're not.

They are still forbidden?

>> Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
>> (although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
>> others to pay for his taxi).
>
>This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.

He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 10:35:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>>to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
>>organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
>>number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
>>them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
>
>My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
>the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>
>Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
>(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
>others to pay for his taxi).
>
Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)

In message <5uobmihavb0cpj3g8e6elmhjkte6dttqti@4ax.com>, at 12:58:41 on
Tue, 28 Nov 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 10:35:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <uk4eoi$7urq$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:54 on Tue, 28 Nov
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>Somebody needs to point out to the rabbi that there are many entrances
>>>to the UndergrounD that share premises with a wide variety of different
>>>organisations, some of which may well contain human remains for any
>>>number of reasons. He should go round and check each and every one of
>>>them before allowing his flock to use the tube.
>>
>>My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
>>the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>>apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>>
>>Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
>>(although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
>>others to pay for his taxi).
>>
>Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)

That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not being
money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what would the
Old Testament say about it?

ps The Taxi was in Cambridge, which 40yrs later still isn't in the
Oyster Zones.
--
Roland Perry

On 28/11/2023 10:13, Robin wrote:

> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
> the entrance hall.  It may well be that that is still in existence.
>

I haven't been for a while, but that is how I remember it. Have they
done away with that entrance?

On 28/11/2023 09:38, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

> I remember that, was a big fuss. You have to wonder if someones religious rules
> are so inviolate that a bit of string allows them to to bypass them

When my father bought a new-build house, he pointed to the spec that
said the builders would install a fence. So, they stuck a couple of
poles in the ground and a bit of string between them, and said that's
your fence.

The eruv string similarly represents the most minimal fence you can
possibly get away with. You may think it's ridiculous - well, it is
ridiculous! - but it's pretty harmless. It's just some fishing line
strung between the lamp posts, and you have to look pretty hard to spot it.

In contrast, I'm not surprised that the council objected to the hideous
thing they wanted to place on the Science Museum. There must be a better
solution than that.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <5uobmihavb0cpj3g8e6elmhjkte6dttqti@4ax.com>, at 12:58:41 on
>

>>>
>> Use an Oyster card. Top it up on a Friday. Sorted :-)
>
> That's a potentially wonderful loophole, Oyster Cards famously not being
> money, because TfL would need to register as a Bank. But what would the
> Old Testament say about it?
>
> ps The Taxi was in Cambridge, which 40yrs later still isn't in the
> Oyster Zones.

Probably not allowed because Oysters are not Kosher.

GH

On 28/11/2023 12:02, Roland Perry wrote:

>>> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
>>> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>>> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>>
>> No, they're not.
>
> They are still forbidden?

Absolutely.

>
>>> Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
>>> (although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
>>> others to pay for his taxi).
>>
>> This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.
>
> He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.

He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
least he only did 1 out of 2.

On 28/11/2023 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:

> As a bit of a Time-Lord geek, I've always wondered how that kind of
> regime works if those folk are on a plane flying through different
> timezones, even if they never set foot on soil where it was the Sabbath
> in the local time.

There's no particular problem about prolonged sea voyages which might
last several months.

As far as planes are concerned, an observant Jew wouldn't usually board
one unless he'd be at his destination well before the sabbath started.
So, your theoretical problem wouldn't arise.

In message <uk54ms$bb9a$3@dont-email.me>, at 16:32:29 on Tue, 28 Nov
2023, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>On 28/11/2023 12:02, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>>> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use money on
>>>> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>>>> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>>>
>>> No, they're not.

>> They are still forbidden?
>
>Absolutely.

Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
of the night a religious imperative

>>>> Either would preclude their use of any form of public transport
>>>> (although I did have one such friend at University who would allow
>>>> others to pay for his taxi).
>>>
>>> This isn't anything to do with observing the Sabbath.

>> He claimed he wasn't allowed to handle money on the Sabbath.
>
>He isn't allowed to handle money, and he isn't allowed to travel, so at
>least he only did 1 out of 2.

New concept: not allowed to travel. Is house arrest on the Sabbeth a
thing?
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 11:33:25 +0000
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>On 28/11/2023 10:30, Recliner wrote:
>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>
>>>>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>>>>
>>>>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander
>to
>>>>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion
>that
>>>>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent
>over
>>>>> backwards to accomodate them.
>>>>
>>>> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
>>>> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
>>>> aren't under the same roof at all.
>>>>
>>> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
>>> the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
>> wouldn't be acceptable.
>
>I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
>trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
>outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
>however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
>law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
>the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.

Looking for logic in extreme religious beliefs is a fools errand.

On 28.11.23 12:45, Recliner wrote:
> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 28/11/2023 10:30, Recliner wrote:
>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> On 28/11/2023 09:54, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 23:37:59 GMT
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/kensington-council-rejects-solution-for-je
>>>>>>> wish-sects-tube-travel-ban-67685/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good on the council, some common sense for a change. We shouldn't pander to
>>>>>> delusional religious extremists though why do I have a sneaking suspicion that
>>>>>> if they were a muslim sect the worthies in the council would have bent over
>>>>>> backwards to accomodate them.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I don't get is why they can't some other rabbi to decide that as you
>>>>> have to go outdoors to get between the foot tunnel and the museum, they
>>>>> aren't under the same roof at all.
>>>>>
>>>> There used to be an exit from the subway which took you directly into
>>>> the entrance hall. It may well be that that is still in existence.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think that's the issue. If it were, then their proposed solution
>>> wouldn't be acceptable.
>>
>> I'll gladly defer to your understanding of the halakha. I gave up even
>> trying many moons ago and took at face value their assertion that the
>> outside archway would break up "the one roof phenomenon". I would
>> however offer the possibility that the archway has effect (in Jewish
>> law) below the level of the pavement so as to sever the connection in
>> the subway which does continue into the Science Museum.
>
> The black sheet steel between the two entrances is apparently important;
> the unobtrusive archway alone isn't enough. So it must represent a wall
> that extends beyond the slightly overhanging roof above, so there's no
> unbroken path between the two entrances under the roof.
>
> It seems people here aren't familiar how far the Sabbath rules go (though
> this issue is nothing to do with the Sabbath). This piece gives a flavour:
>
> https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/501/the-travelers-halachic-guide-to-hotels/
>
> I first came across on a visit Jerusalem. I was going down to dinner, and
> went to the lifts. I saw a group of people clustered around the far lift,
> but the lift call light wasn't lit up. So I pressed the button, the lift
> duly arrived, and the group all rushed across to join me. I duly pressed
> the lift button to go the ground floor, and we travelled non-stop. Later, I
> discovered that they weren't allowed to press the lift button, but were
> waiting for the stopping lift that runs on the Sabbath. But once I'd
> pressed the button, tgey were free to join me.

Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like
lightswitches, lift call buttons and pedestrian crossing buttons are not
allowed. There is even an issue with refrigerator lights. Something that
happens independently of a person's actions can be utilised, though, and
an automatic system that was set in progress beforehand is fine. Hence
lights on a timer are OK, and a lift that endlessly runs stopping on
every floor is OK. Some fridges come with Sabbath mode where the
internal light is disabled on a timer.

The rules on getting assistance also pose peculiarities. If a gentile
does something of their own free will, it is totally fine to make use of
that. So in the lift example, because you wanted to go to the ground
floor yourself, it was fine for them to come along for the ride. It is
not, however, acceptable to ask for help. Askign someone to do something
forbidden is regarded as the same as doing it yourself. This led to the
odd concept of the Shabbos Goy, a gentile aquaintance who comes around
on the Sabbath and helps out by doing forbidden tasks. As it is
forbidden to both pay for the help and to directly ask for it, there
ensues an odd process of passing remarks about how it would be nice is
some task or other happened to be done (without actually asking for it
to be done), and of having a sum of money sitting in a place where the
goy might find it and take it away, with no explicit statement that it
is payment.

Robin

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 18:11:38 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>Making electrical circuits manually is forbidden. This means things like

I'd love to see where it forbids that in the Torah. Unless the authors had
incredible foresight.

On 28.11.23 17:42, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <uk54ms$bb9a$3@dont-email.me>, at 16:32:29 on Tue, 28 Nov
> 2023, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>> On 28/11/2023 12:02, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>>> My understanding is that strict observers aren't allowed to use
>>>>> money on
>>>>> the Sabbath, nor use anything that resembles "technology" (although
>>>>> apparently light switches and so on have somehow become exempt).
>>>>
>>>> No, they're not.
>
>>>  They are still forbidden?
>>
>> Absolutely.
>
> Are candles also forbidden, or is falling down the stairs in the middle
> of the night a religious imperative

The rule, formally, is against making fire. As electrical switches can
cause small sparks in their operation, they are interpreted as falling
under the category of "making fire". A candle is, more obviously, making
fire, so is definitely forbidden. An automatic system that works without
any manual intervention is fine, though, both timer activated lights or
lights activated by motion sensors are fine.

Robin